we are # 1

[3timescharm]

I love my country. I love it so much I want to make it better. Indeed I consider it my patriotic duty to protest those things my country does I don't believe in. Past mistakes should not be repeated. Fortunately our nation has the courage to stand up and admit we've been wrong in the past. Manifest destiny is a good example.

 

Religion may not have been the only factor in past wars but I doubt anyone can find a single war in which it wasn't a factor at all.

AMEN...AMEN..and AMEN. Well said

[Stepbrow]

I love my country. I love it so much I want to make it better. Indeed I consider it my patriotic duty to protest those things my country does I don't believe in. Past mistakes should not be repeated. Fortunately our nation has the courage to stand up and admit we've been wrong in the past. Manifest destiny is a good example.

 

Religion may not have been the only factor in past wars but I doubt anyone can find a single war in which it wasn't a factor at all.

 

I am with you 100% on everything you said except the last sentence.

1. World War I

2. World War II

3. Korean War

4 Vietnam War

5. Gulf War I

6. Gulf War II

[Yuanyang]

I love my country. I love it so much I want to make it better. Indeed I consider it my patriotic duty to protest those things my country does I don't believe in. Past mistakes should not be repeated. Fortunately our nation has the courage to stand up and admit we've been wrong in the past. Manifest destiny is a good example.

 

Religion may not have been the only factor in past wars but I doubt anyone can find a single war in which it wasn't a factor at all.

 

I am with you 100% on everything you said except the last sentence.

1. World War I

2. World War II

3. Korean War

4 Vietnam War

5. Gulf War I

6. Gulf War II

Ditto.

 

War is diplomacy by other means. Warring crusades (a very dirty word in the Muslim world) are fairly rare in history by comparison to those fueled by economic issues, pride, etc ...

But! Each side uses religion as its own red herring for propaganda and motivational purposes. But religion is rarely the root-issue or even the major issue in armed conflicts between nations and peoples.

 

Note: We Western Christians see the Bible as full of religious wars but underlying that is the fact that most were economically based as the Israelite people nation(s) was smacked dab in the middle of the hottest trade route coming out of the Egyptian Empire and other empires later on.

[warpedbored]

I love my country. I love it so much I want to make it better. Indeed I consider it my patriotic duty to protest those things my country does I don't believe in. Past mistakes should not be repeated. Fortunately our nation has the courage to stand up and admit we've been wrong in the past. Manifest destiny is a good example.

 

Religion may not have been the only factor in past wars but I doubt anyone can find a single war in which it wasn't a factor at all.

 

I am with you 100% on everything you said except the last sentence.

1. World War I

2. World War II

3. Korean War

4 Vietnam War

5. Gulf War I

6. Gulf War II

1. World War I

This one is the toughest. It is widely believed that the war started over the assassination of Arch duke Ferdinand. Turkey, Serbia, and Russia all played a part. Christians vs Muslims, Catholics vs Protestants also played a part. Even Sikhs in India fought in the war because they felt it was their religious duty to defend their oppressed.

2. World War II

This one is a no brainer. No one can deny that 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis wasn't a factor.

3. Korean War

A lot of American involvement in this war was to justify it by stopping the godless communists from spreading their evil.

4 Vietnam War

Same as the Korean war.

5. Gulf War I

Americans were still pissed by the hostage crisis in Iran. Many saw it as payback time against Muslim extremists.

6. Gulf War II

Muslim extremists responsible for 911 are still one of the justifications of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[knloregon]

Too broad a brush in my opinion Carl.

 

For instance, How did religion factor into the START of WW-2 We know the Jews became the victims, but how was this a religious war (as a trigger) to begin with? Same with many of the others cited....

 

"..I have seen no one here debate the low quality of life for most in China. The only debate has been to the level of improvement being made...."

 

A side comment from Eric, but important given recent debates. Take away the strawman of poverty, (China or the US) and the real discussion should be what political system, that is in place in respective countries, that is doing a good job of addressing these conditions, and why? I would be the first to admit that if it works in one country, it might not, or probably not work in another, but the discussion is worth having.

 

But Eric's posts here are fascinating.... Are you a Spanish citizen?

 

As for the Biblical, fine with me, the points in the quotes from Matthew can certainly be considered outside of the Christian context---as philosophical..... and the obvious question that arises---if Christians are honest in their beliefs, and take these passages to heart, are they more inclined, or less inclined (compared to those who are not Christian) to be generous to the poor, or to extend themselves, in a meaningful way, to those desperately in need?

[warpedbored]

Kim I'm not saying religion is a primary cause of any of these wars but it certainly was a factor IMO.

[david_dawei]

The world is our home; each country is simply the fenced in yard we choose to live in. There's good and bad everywhere.

[Feathers268]

[The only 2 growth industries in the US since 1973 is government and poverty.

This is the best quote here. (not to steal the debate away from a tangent and put it back on topic) Government policies helped create the cycle of poverty and distruction of the home family. Politicians love welfare. They can hold it over their constituants for vote, but will not work on solving the problem.

[Eric739]

Too broad a brush in my opinion Carl.

 

"..I have seen no one here debate the low quality of life for most in China. The only debate has been to the level of improvement being made...."

 

A side comment from Eric, but important given recent debates. Take away the strawman of poverty, (China or the US) and the real discussion should be what political system, that is in place in respective countries, that is doing a good job of addressing these conditions, and why? I would be the first to admit that if it works in one country, it might not, or probably not work in another, but the discussion is worth having.

 

But Eric's posts here are fascinating.... Are you a Spanish citizen?

 

 

Kim,

 

Thanks. I am trying to get to know you guys better being a newbie.

 

But I agree with Carl on the start of WWII. Hitler's main motivation for the war from Mein Kampf to his Last Will, confirm that he viewed the world as a struggle to remove the Jewish people from the earth completely. Although he used Lebensraum ("living space") as the reason for his aggression, religion was his real motivation.

The Japanese felt the same about the Chinese and other Asiatic peoples, not quite for religious reasons but their Bushido code might be called a religion. They, like Hitler, felt the rest of the world were their slaves. The Rape of Nanking (Iris Chang) is a great book on that subject.

 

Am I a Spanish citizen? Maybe in spirit. We were one of the first military families to go to Spain after Eisenhower signed the treaty with Franco bringing the Cold War to Spain in the mid 1950's. (I have had many lives....)

 

As for the comment by feathers about how bad the government is and how politicians ignore poverty: yeah, they do. Another great book on that subject, speaking of America, is Broken Government by John Dean.

 

I know it is easy to condemn the government and blame it for all the problems, but we need good government, not no government. The Spanish Civil War was a good example of why.

 

Franco started the rebellion when he and other generals felt the government was going the wrong direction, and unfortunately they may have been right. Many of the so-called "leaders" of Republican Spain at the time were anarchists. They wanted to abolish government and almost did. Many people were killed even before war broke out in Spain by the "government" and for blatant anti-religious reasons. (I think communists and anarchists confuse their doctrine with a simple need for power.) Nuns were raped, priests were killed. One Catholic cemetery was desecrated; the corpses of nuns were unearthed and displayed in a courtyard.

 

That war almost killed all of Spain itself. For many years afterwards, one third of the country was starving and living under a brutal dictatorship.

 

Every time I see the King of Spain or see pictures of my old country (Spain will never leave me) I get teary eyed when I think of how far Spain has come -- proof that things can change for the better.

 

America has its problems but at least we talk about them openly and work for the better. At least there is a modicum of freedom, something my wife is so proud to be a part of. This democracy may be bad but it's the best thing we got.

[knloregon]

Interesting personal perspectives Eric,

 

Still would contest the 'primacy' argument for religion starting a bulk of the wars last century. my view is that Hitler was anti-religious, really, a racial purist. Jewish religion, culture, race were in the way.

 

Much the same with what was going on in Imperial Japan--- as you point out----the late 1930's incursion in China was excused---but probably not really caused by---this feeling that Japan was the protector of the Asian race. And they were infuriated that the Chinese didn't share that view---thus the mass slaughter, which was not just Nanjing, but throughout the war.

 

Another good perspective for that is Barbara Tuckman's history on 20th. Century China (she was raised there during her formative years) ---it centers around the experiences of General Joseph Stillwell ('Vinegar' Joe Stillwell)---- "Stillwell and the American Experience In China". She details the mind-set of the Japanese quite well, I think.

 

When you look at the US/Japanese perspective, and the events that lead up to our war with Japan, I think most would agree it was economically oriented-----the US was moving to cut Japan's imported supply of oil.

 

An important lesson, I believe, if 'protectionist' Americans gain an upper hand in American politics, as it relates to our relationship with China.

[Jeikun]

Kim I'm not saying religion is a primary cause of any of these wars but it certainly was a factor IMO.

 

Religion is a factor in any war, Carl because Religion is a factor in every society, and religion is a means to motivate people. Therefore you will find religion involved in ANY major event or catastrophe manmade or not.

 

But to call it a factor in the Korean war because Americans were involved, and Americans oppose communists, and often think of them as "godless", is pulling the taffy pretty thin. It would be kind of like saying it was a factor in our relief efforts after the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines, because the Filipinos are catholics, and many in America honor Catholic people and consider them "godly"...

 

Same in World War 2, the holocaust wasn't a religious issue so much as an ethnicity/race issue. It just so happens that the majority of Jews practice judaism... and the holocaust wasn't the cause of WW2... we didn't even know about it until near the end.

 

I see your point, but I think you are trying a little too hard to get things to fit it. I think the larger truth is religion is a part of the human psyche (especially in the past), and you can tie it in to ANY major event if you hold it to a certain light and squint just so.

 

And as to the original post... "Oh no!!! There are poor people in America!!! Shock and horror!! I guess I better get off of my high horse and eat some humble pie!! Touche..." It's kind of comforting to see the same tit for tat still must exist here. If China's farts stink, someone has to be right there to show us America's farts stink too and give us a big ol' sniff... lest we forget.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Guest Pommey]

Kim I'm not saying religion is a primary cause of any of these wars but it certainly was a factor IMO.

 

Religion is a factor in any war, Carl because Religion is a factor in every society, and religion is a means to motivate people. Therefore you will find religion involved in ANY major event or catastrophe manmade or not.

 

But to call it a factor in the Korean war because Americans were involved, and Americans oppose communists, and often think of them as "godless", is pulling the taffy pretty thin. It would be kind of like saying it was a factor in our relief efforts after the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines, because the Filipinos are catholics, and many in America honor Catholic people and consider them "godly"...

 

Same in World War 2, the holocaust wasn't a religious issue so much as an ethnicity/race issue. It just so happens that the majority of Jews practice judaism... and the holocaust wasn't the cause of WW2... we didn't even know about it until near the end.

 

I see your point, but I think you are trying a little too hard to get things to fit it. I think the larger truth is religion is a part of the human psyche (especially in the past), and you can tie it in to ANY major event if you hold it to a certain light and squint just so.

 

I'm going to throw something in here your not going to like . Northen Ireland.

The North predominatly protestant the South Catholic, The IRA catholic, Their stated cause "reunification" something the majority in the North dont want. Funding for the IRA almost exclusivly from Catholic Americans (well atleast up to 9/11) .

I only served 2 tours there so I'm probably mis-guided as usual, but that was/is a secterion conflict of religion.

[Jeikun]

Kim I'm not saying religion is a primary cause of any of these wars but it certainly was a factor IMO.

 

Religion is a factor in any war, Carl because Religion is a factor in every society, and religion is a means to motivate people. Therefore you will find religion involved in ANY major event or catastrophe manmade or not.

 

But to call it a factor in the Korean war because Americans were involved, and Americans oppose communists, and often think of them as "godless", is pulling the taffy pretty thin. It would be kind of like saying it was a factor in our relief efforts after the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines, because the Filipinos are catholics, and many in America honor Catholic people and consider them "godly"...

 

Same in World War 2, the holocaust wasn't a religious issue so much as an ethnicity/race issue. It just so happens that the majority of Jews practice judaism... and the holocaust wasn't the cause of WW2... we didn't even know about it until near the end.

 

I see your point, but I think you are trying a little too hard to get things to fit it. I think the larger truth is religion is a part of the human psyche (especially in the past), and you can tie it in to ANY major event if you hold it to a certain light and squint just so.

 

I'm going to throw something in here your not going to like . Northen Ireland.

The North predominatly protestant the South Catholic, The IRA catholic, Their stated cause "reunification" something the majority in the North dont want. Funding for the IRA almost exclusivly from Catholic Americans (well atleast up to 9/11) .

I only served 2 tours there so I'm probably mis-guided as usual, but that was/is a secterion conflict of religion.

 

Actually, no. I agree with you completely about religion being a primary cause there Your sarcasm aside, I am sure you know EXACTLY what you are talking about in this case. My point was certainly not that religion wasn't at the heart of many human wars and conflicts, just that there also a great many where it is not (though if you squint right and TRY to see it you likely can... albeit tenuously).

Edited October 29, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Eric739]

Interesting personal perspectives Eric,

 

Still would contest the 'primacy' argument for religion starting a bulk of the wars last century. my view is that Hitler was anti-religious, really, a racial purist. Jewish religion, culture, race were in the way.

 

Much the same with what was going on in Imperial Japan--- as you point out----the late 1930's incursion in China was excused---but probably not really caused by---this feeling that Japan was the protector of the Asian race. And they were infuriated that the Chinese didn't share that view---thus the mass slaughter, which was not just Nanjing, but throughout the war.

 

Another good perspective for that is Barbara Tuckman's history on 20th. Century China (she was raised there during her formative years) ---it centers around the experiences of General Joseph Stillwell ('Vinegar' Joe Stillwell)---- "Stillwell and the American Experience In China". She details the mind-set of the Japanese quite well, I think.

 

When you look at the US/Japanese perspective, and the events that lead up to our war with Japan, I think most would agree it was economically oriented-----the US was moving to cut Japan's imported supply of oil.

 

An important lesson, I believe, if 'protectionist' Americans gain an upper hand in American politics, as it relates to our relationship with China.

 

I think the anti-Jewish invective that Hitler wrote and spoke of even in his early years just after the war, prove religion as a major causative factor. I won't agree that it was factor in every war but certainly WWII.

 

To say that Nanking was treated the same as any other city in China by the Japanese is just not justified. The over 300,000 people (out of 600,000) that were massacred, many after rape and mutilation, has no precedent in modern times. It was called the single worst atrocity in either the European or Asian theaters of battle during WWII.

 

The holocaust killed many more but over a greater time and distance.

 

And Tuchman missed the massacre (as did Stillwell) with a mention of it being "400 heads" a day. Very little had been written about Nanking other than Chang's book. A lot has been written since.

 

The Japanese would never have been able to carry out their aims without the Bushido code. Even in Nanking they were outnumbered 25,000 to 300,000 and still took the city even after a bloody battle for Shanghai.

 

We already were embargoing oil and other goods on Japan by December, 1941. No doubt a factor in the attack on Pearl Harbor was economics but the Bushido code is embedded deep in the Shinto tradition.

 

Not sure I would agree that most of Japan felt they were China's protecturate. They would not have make up such incidents as Mucken in order to start a war. (1905 invasion of Manchuria.)

 

Like Hitler, it was just plain megalomania.

[knloregon]

"To say that Nanking was treated the same as any other city in China by the Japanese is just not justified. The over 300,000 people (out of 600,000) that were massacred, many after rape and mutilation, has no precedent in modern times. It was called the single worst atrocity in either the European or Asian theaters of battle during WWII...."

 

----"To say that Nanking was treated the same as any other city in China by the Japanese is just not justified. ----

 

Actually, I didn't say that. What I said was that Japan continued to commit the same kinds of atrocities in China until the end of the war.

 

Many of us know of the Doolittle raid over Tokyo on April 18, 1942, as an answer to Pearl Harbor, of December 7, 1941. And as an aside, tribute to the 'Greatest Generation' that it took only about 4 months to put the technology, aircraft carriers into position off Japan, and resources together to pull this off---compared to what we have accomplished during 8 years in Afghanistan, for instance..

 

But after Spencer Tracy, and after Hollywood goes home, there was another side to that story, not told in the West.

 

Amazingly, of the B-25 bombers which continued on to China, only 8 crew members were captured by the Japanese-----three were executed after a show trial, the other three---POW's. The rest----SIXTYFOUR US airmen were rescued by the Chinese------and the Chinese knew-----they were doing this at great risk to themselves, and their families in occupied China.

 

In fact, this is where my Father-In-Law first comes into this part of world history. The Japanese lost so much face over this raid----Japan, and Toyko, after all, were supposed to be safe havens... that they took it out on the Chinese for helping the American airmen, not only survive, but through their networks-----return to allied forces, that they took it out on the Chinese people. The campaign---called the Zhejiang/Jiagxi (from where most of the B-25's crashed) campaign leveled and murdered whole villages, and extended into Hunan, and Hubei. Father-In-Law, a teenager at the time, along with his whole village, were forced to assemble, and questioned by the Japanese. Apparently, none in the village had anything to say, so the leader of the Japanese platoon ordered a solder to pull an infant from the arms of a young mother, and ritually disembowel it with his bayonet, while the child was still alive..

 

This was the kind of activity perpetrated by the Japanese which is remembered throughout China today, and at the time, made such an impression on Father, that he immediately joined the Communists---for one reason only----to kill Japanese. Because of his age, he didn't get the chance, but according to China's archives, 250,000 Chinese died in that Japanese campaign....... brought as revenge for saving 64 American airmen...