we are # 1

[Guest jin979]

Were not the pilgrins here running from religious oppression and murder, was not the rape and plunder of Africa and the Americas justified in the name of god ?

[warpedbored]

Good point Jin. Much of America's land was taken by the belief of Manifest Destiny. The belief that it was just and proper to take this land because God wanted us to have it. It wasn't just America though. Much of the world was barbaric in those days. England sailed around the world taking pretty much what ever they could conquest. The opium wars in China, Japan's conquest of Korea and a myriad of other conflicts around the globe. The US certainly didn't hold a monopoly.

[Kyle]

A lot of people do things in the name of God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their actions are consistent with God's desires - the Spanish inquisition comes to mind. One of the greatest causes of atheism in the world today are people who claim God's name but live their lives in a way inconsistent with God's message.

Edited October 28, 2009 by KJJ (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

What people do in the name of God scares me but not as much as what governments do in the name of God. One only needs to look at any theocracy to see the wisdom of a separation of church and state.

[Eric739]

I don't agree that the rape and plunder of Africa was done in the name of God. There may be individuals who may have said so, but slavery rarely has anything to do with someone who is truly "religious." It was simple greed; slaves for molasses or tobacco, molasses for rum, rum for more slaves. That's how it started anyway: the Golden Triangle of trade between Africa, America (the Indies), and England.

 

Nor do I agree Manifest Destiny was either, although some historians might say so just because some religious fanatics were quoted as saying the land was given to "us" by God.

 

http://articles.mibba.com/History/171/Mani...-Right-Or-Greed

 

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/manifest/manif2.htm

 

As always, it is a combination of factors, greed being the dominant one.

 

The Pilgrims were presecuted the same as anyone in England at the time. There were many religious sects then and they suffered along with the rest of them. To show the temper of the times, Friday was children's hanging day. The "pilgrims" came to America for a better life more than a religious persecution.

 

http://www.plimoth.org/kids/homeworkHelp/pilgrims.php

 

And to say they were any better than what they left, they created a theocracy that was dreadful to live in. In fact, the "cruel and unusual punishment" doctrine in the US Consitution was written as a result mainly of their laws. After all, they were the ones that burned witches.

 

I do agree that religion is a major factor in many conflicts but it is usually more than just religion as the cause.

 

A war to me that is usually misunderstood for its religious tones was Vietnam. The hordes of people who migrated to the south after the 1954 accords were Catholic who were very much persecuted by the northern Buddhists. To see buddhist monks immolating themselves in South Vietnam was incredibly ironic to me. And to know that the commmunists were against any religion, nevermind Buddhism made it even more ironic.

 

And to say that the Spanish Inquisition was not a religious movement is partially true but for different reasons. The Catholic oligarchy at the time wanted to remove that last vestige of Jewish converts (called moronos) from the country. They had already killed or expelled the rest. Most of those who were put to death or had their land confiscated (which is what the church was really after) were moronos.

 

One of them who got by the Inquisition was a Jew who came from Italy (really he was Portuguese but that's another story) was the so-called discoverer of the new world -- Cristobal Colon, otherwise known as Christopher Columbus, a name made up to make him look like he came from Genoa, Italy, a city well known at the time for having a high Jewish population.

 

Religion is often blamed when other factors are more to blame.

 

Trust me, I am no religious zealot and don't deny the role of religion in many catastrophes. (The 100 Year War is the one I would use as an example of desparate wars caused by religious conviction.) I grew up in Spain under Franco so I am very familiar with theocratic government. You could go to jail for holding hands in public. The Guardi Civil could shoot you for looking cross eyed at them. Things that are done now in modern day Spain would warrant the death penalty easily, such as being gay.

 

But who was one of America's greatest allies during the Cold War, the one who was also Hitler's "friend" although Spain was neutral in WWII? Generalissimo Franco de Bahamonde.

 

I am so glad those days are over for the most part anyway.

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

The have been more wars fought over God and religion then man can count. This has changed since the advent of the Industrial Revolution. Now wars since 1798 have been fought for profit.

[warpedbored]

Manifest Destiny was most certainly used by the US government through out the 1800s.

http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...anifest_destiny

Manifest Destiny ideology shaped both public attitudes and government policy, and was constantly updated to suit whatever economic opportunities were available on Native land. For example, the discovery of gold in Georgia led to a barrage of Manifest Destiny propaganda calling for removal of Native peoples from the area. So in 1830 the U.S. Congress passed the "Indian Removal Act", and thus began the dispossession of the Cherokee people. This was legitimised under the Treaty of New Echota, which was signed by President Andrew. The result of this act was the Trail of Tears where Native Americans walked from Georgia to Oklahoma under very harsh conditions. Over 4,000 lives were lost on that forced march.

 

Read more: http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...y#ixzz0VFLEJyYD

[Eric739]

The have been more wars fought over God and religion then man can count. This has changed since the advent of the Industrial Revolution. Now wars since 1798 have been fought for profit.

 

I would like a few examples of wars that we cannot "count." And help me understand why 1798 was chosen as a cut off date.

 

No doubt religion is a major factor and sometimes the only factor, but not always.

 

To say we are number 1 in anything is really a misnomer. We have the highest GDP. That will change someday I am sure.

[Yuanyang]

The have been more wars fought over God and religion then man can count. This has changed since the advent of the Industrial Revolution. Now wars since 1798 have been fought for profit.

No, most wars have always been for profit/resources or ego. Studying the Roman empire ... whenever the Treasury got low they'd head out to the East. They looked upon the Persian and Egyptian Empires as ATM machines. That's just one example. "God-Wars" are fairly rare by comparison but usually very bloody (see European Reformation wars as an example).

[3timescharm]

I am reading this and get the impression that there are some people posting that really do not like the good ol, USA. In this country we are all able to speak our mind......Freedom of speach....... But I must ask.....if you hate this country so much then why not move???.

 

Yes the USA is not perfect....far from it. However, I still think it is the best around and will continue to be, not because of Government but inspite of it. It is the people of this country that make it great. If you look you can find poor and currupt people in ANY country, some worse than others. Yes I am worried about the current stance of our Government but like everything else it will swing back. Every country has there reasons for what they did in the past...right or wrong...it is in the past.

 

Robert

[b.c]

I am reading this and get the impression that there are some people posting that really do not like the good ol, USA. In this country we are all able to speak our mind......Freedom of speach....... But I must ask.....if you hate this country so much then why not move???.

 

Yes the USA is not perfect....far from it. However, I still think it is the best around and will continue to be, not because of Government but inspite of it. It is the people of this country that make it great. If you look you can find poor and currupt people in ANY country, some worse than others. Yes I am worried about the current stance of our Government but like everything else it will swing back. Every country has there reasons for what they did in the past...right or wrong...it is in the past.

 

Robert

 

Maybe some of us just are not blinded by love of country enough to take notice of some serious problems facing this country, ie facing the brutal facts of reality. I love this country for the principals it was founded on and is supposed to stand for. Unfortunately, America has been far of course for some time now and in many ways does not represent the principals and ideals that it was founded on. While I am not so certain that things will 'swing back' anytime soon, I still love this country. And I am sure all others here do as well.

[3timescharm]

I am reading this and get the impression that there are some people posting that really do not like the good ol, USA. In this country we are all able to speak our mind......Freedom of speach....... But I must ask.....if you hate this country so much then why not move???.

 

Yes the USA is not perfect....far from it. However, I still think it is the best around and will continue to be, not because of Government but inspite of it. It is the people of this country that make it great. If you look you can find poor and currupt people in ANY country, some worse than others. Yes I am worried about the current stance of our Government but like everything else it will swing back. Every country has there reasons for what they did in the past...right or wrong...it is in the past.

 

Robert

 

Maybe some of us just are not blinded by love of country enough to take notice of some serious problems facing this country, ie facing the brutal facts of reality. I love this country for the principals it was founded on and is supposed to stand for. Unfortunately, America has been far of course for some time now and in many ways does not represent the principals and ideals that it was founded on. While I am not so certain that things will 'swing back' anytime soon, I still love this country. And I am sure all others here do as well.

 

I am not blind. I know this country has very serious problem, but nothing that can not be fixed in time. We can not change the past, we can only try to make the future better, but not by giving total control of our lives to the Government.....which apparently is what some want

[Eric739]

Manifest Destiny was most certainly used by the US government through out the 1800s.

http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...anifest_destiny

Manifest Destiny ideology shaped both public attitudes and government policy, and was constantly updated to suit whatever economic opportunities were available on Native land. For example, the discovery of gold in Georgia led to a barrage of Manifest Destiny propaganda calling for removal of Native peoples from the area. So in 1830 the U.S. Congress passed the "Indian Removal Act", and thus began the dispossession of the Cherokee people. This was legitimised under the Treaty of New Echota, which was signed by President Andrew. The result of this act was the Trail of Tears where Native Americans walked from Georgia to Oklahoma under very harsh conditions. Over 4,000 lives were lost on that forced march.

 

Read more: http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...y#ixzz0VFLEJyYD

 

Manifest Destiny may well have been the policy of the government but it was greed over land, not God. Some fanatics may have justified it using God but Custer and Meade and Sheridan didn't get down on their knees and pray before they slaughtered thousands of Native Americans.

 

I don't think people who post here don't like the US. In fact, quite the opposite. It shows a lot of self concept in your own country to marry someone from another.

[3timescharm]

Manifest Destiny was most certainly used by the US government through out the 1800s.

http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...anifest_destiny

Manifest Destiny ideology shaped both public attitudes and government policy, and was constantly updated to suit whatever economic opportunities were available on Native land. For example, the discovery of gold in Georgia led to a barrage of Manifest Destiny propaganda calling for removal of Native peoples from the area. So in 1830 the U.S. Congress passed the "Indian Removal Act", and thus began the dispossession of the Cherokee people. This was legitimised under the Treaty of New Echota, which was signed by President Andrew. The result of this act was the Trail of Tears where Native Americans walked from Georgia to Oklahoma under very harsh conditions. Over 4,000 lives were lost on that forced march.

 

Read more: http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...y#ixzz0VFLEJyYD

 

Manifest Destiny may well have been the policy of the government but it was greed over land, not God. Some fanatics may have justified it using God but Custer and Meade and Sheridan didn't get down on their knees and pray before they slaughtered thousands of Native Americans.

 

I don't think people who post here don't like the US. In fact, quite the opposite. It shows a lot of self concept in your own country to marry someone from another.

 

"self concept". What country I live in never entered my mind when I decided t marry a woman from China.....just the women from my country made me choose a bride from another country

[warpedbored]

I love my country. I love it so much I want to make it better. Indeed I consider it my patriotic duty to protest those things my country does I don't believe in. Past mistakes should not be repeated. Fortunately our nation has the courage to stand up and admit we've been wrong in the past. Manifest destiny is a good example.

 

Religion may not have been the only factor in past wars but I doubt anyone can find a single war in which it wasn't a factor at all.