Money, and the apparent obsession with it

[mercator]

"Actions speak louder than words. "

 

That seems to be the creedo for my wife too. Actions don't have to mean money. I've sent my wife flowers once, a week or so ago... She says it was wasteful, but she talks about it often and told her friends how romantic I am (langman de lao gong)

 

I give her money each month, and when I have a good month, I give a little more. I like doing it because I know it makes it easier on her.

 

But it is the little things, like sending flowers, giving her the compliments she deserves, that seem to make her light up.

[Guest fh4ever]

We talked about me helping her by giving her some money.  I agreed, only because she does not speak English well, so she has every email I send translated so there are no misunderstandings.  Then she has the translator go over her reply for the same reason.  This adds up to about $100 a month that she really didn't have until she met me and started writing me regularly.  We also talk on the phone anywhere from 2-10 times each month.  This uses a lot of her cellular minutes, plus she tells me it is expensive to receive international calls.  She has no land line I can call.  Even if that weren't true, I'm sure it adds 10-15 US to her costs.  So giving her $150 a month is an understandable amount.

 

 

You only talk to your wife 2-10 times A MONTH?!?!? Wow! Many people on this site talk to their separate SOs twice a DAY. My wife and I spoke on the phone probably an average of 1 & 1/2 hours a day, for nine months. How is she going to learn English if she never practices it talking to you?!?

 

That alone is a huge red flag for me. Coupled with her requests for money and some of your other comments... I think you need to do a search on google for "internet dating scams." Asking for money for translations is a classical scam. In fact, everything you've reported sounds like a classical scam. I understand some of these things in isolation might seem legit, but put them all together and ... as another posted, "Danger, Will Robinson!!!!"

 

I would NOT approach this as a confrontation. If she's a scammer, she'll just attack you back and make you feel guilty. Then you will spend the rest of your life wondering. If she's legit, you will hurt her feeings and then you'll feel even more guilty.

 

There is a much better way you can gather data without accusing her of anything. I would do this: tell her someone at CFL told you that you'll never get past The Black Pearl with your current low rate of communication. You won't even be lying, because I, a CFL member, am telling you now - I don't think you have much chance of getting through your interview, from what you've told me.

 

Next offer to get her a land line so you can ramp up your conversations dramatically. This should not cost much money at all. If it does, or if she makes some lame excuse why she can't get one, run.

 

Tell her you will pay for her to get a phone card to call you when she wants to initiate the call. You call her back with onesuite or some other service that creates a log of your phone calls, which is some of the best evidence she can bring into her interview. Ask her to look into how much one costs. My recollection is the answer is 50 RMB, and that should last about a month if she's only taking one minute to tell you to call her back. If she tells you it costs $50, check with people here and if you discover she has lied to you, run.

 

By the way, if you use onesuite or a similar Internet-based service, the call will come from inside China, so she will NOT get charged an extra fee for receiving international calls on her cell phone. If she said that she may have already lied to you. All she has to pay for is her regular cell phone charges. You can calculate those costs almost exactly based on price per minute and the number of minutes you talk. I don't know what the current cost per minute for a cell phone in China is, but I'm sure others know it. Calculate those costs and sure, I'd pay for them. It would be good to know that number because then you'll know how much of your money is going to other "expenses."

 

 

If she is a real wife, she will be delighted by your offer to arrange things so you can talk more often. If she's a scammer, she will find many excuses why she can't talk to you on a regular basis.

 

Good luck, but unless you dramatically increase your rate of communication, in my opinion you don't have a real relationship. If she can't speak English well she should take a class and talk to you every day, not hire a translator! This "translator" game is the oldest scam in the book.

[david_dawei]

If she is a real wife, she will be delighted by your offer to arrange things so you can talk more often. If she's a scammer, she will find many excuses why she can't talk to you on a regular basis.

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fh4ever,

 

Welcome to CFL. Good points in this post...

 

Although, I'll balance your comments by saying that everything you label as 'scam material' is also exactly how my relationship played out with my SO... no english; translations needed, talked very infrequently [in beginning] and frankly didn't want to talk, etc... In fact, we're more compatible than I ever dreamed and rarely had a problem despite our inability to talk to each other.

 

At least the website I meet my SO with, they understand chinese ladies do not have a computer and/or a command of english.. And the site is built around the idea of helping these types of women... Without translating, there is no communicating with another person in another country.

 

It was no surprise to me that my SO refused to talk in public to me on her cell phone... Why ? Because her english was basically nonexistent and she was extremely uncomfortable and self-conscious of it. In my opinion, she was letting the issue of 'saving face' creep into herself; our inability to talk and understand caused her to feel too uncomfortable around those nearby.

 

I was told as much "Don't ever call me again!". This should be contrasted with late in the relationship where she said, "I like when you call me. Call anytime". Inbetween is where all the effort takes place towards understanding each other and getting to a common ground.

 

Quality over quantity. I wouldn't worry so much about how often someone talks.. he did state they talk in email every day.. And this is same as I experienced...

[tywy_99]

It was no surprise to me that my SO refused to talk in public to me on her cell phone... Why ? Because her english was basically nonexistent and she was extremely uncomfortable and self-conscious of it.

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Same here, David. My wife would never want to talk on the phone because of her limited English. I understood this all too well because it can be an awkward and possibly embarressing situation in trying to talk to someone in their language when one can't even speak it theirselves!

 

 

 

To the OP,

 

Looks like you have a wide array of thoughts and suggestions on your concerns. Use them as a guide but ultimately you will have to decide, as you well know.

 

-good luck

[Guest fh4ever]

Hi David,

 

I think I understand your points and congratulate you on your apparent success. However, I must note that you say that you talked very infrequently in the beginning. Over time you worked it out, and after you worked it out, you got married. Doesn't sound at all unusual to me. That happens even when both parties speak the same language.

 

What DOES sound unusual to me is to get married to someone BEFORE you have established an ability to talk to each other. Always talking through a translator... geez, how do you know who you are falling in love with? Is it your SO or the translator? If your SO says something nasty to you, does the translator give you a direct translation or sweeten it up a bit first? If you give your SO credit for being patient, understanding, and gracious, is it really your SO, or the translator? And what imaginary virtues is she giving you credit for, that really belong to the translator?

 

I could never imagine marrying someone that I still needed a translator to communicate with. But maybe that's just me.

[egolessvegan]

Hi David,

 

  I think I understand your points and congratulate you on your apparent success. However, I must note that you say that you talked very infrequently in the beginning. Over time you worked it out, and after you worked it out, you got married. Doesn't sound at all unusual to me. That happens even when both parties speak the same language.

 

  What DOES sound unusual to me is to get married to someone BEFORE you have established an ability to talk to each other. Always talking through a translator... geez, how do you know who you are falling in love with? Is it your SO or the translator? If your SO says something nasty to you, does the translator give you a direct translation or sweeten it up a bit first? If you give your SO credit for being patient, understanding, and gracious, is it really your SO, or the translator? And what imaginary virtues is she giving you credit for, that really belong to the translator?

 

  I could never imagine marrying someone that I still needed a translator to communicate with. But maybe that's just me.

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The first time I went to China to be with my future wife we spoke very little of eachother's language. Yet, we had very minimal difficulty communicating. It was very challenging but ultimately successful. The spoken word is very important, but actions speak louder than words!

Ken

[Dennis143]

I cannot resist to chime in here. Having spent this past year going through a very similar experience that Ken is going through now, I must say that communication is foremost in establishing a firm foundation to any relationship.

 

Certainly, there are exceptions as David and Tywy 99 have pointed out. Yet, in order to assure oneself of an honest and trusting relationship, two people must find a way to try to communicate and communicate often. This communication is the bridge that will unite and bond those who attempt these relationships. And, to just believe on blind faith alone can run the risk of ignoring obvious red flags and, without the constant bond of communication, may allow the initial bond to wither and fade away.

[m-coon]

I agree 100% with DavidZixuan! My relationship is almost identical to what he said for himself and his wife. Sure there were flags - but I ignored them and we have an outstanding relationship now - that I feel is 100% true for us both. I think one needs to ignore a lot of these flags by looking at all the good you see also. If you freak out at every little thing that looks wrong - you will never make it. Have a bit of faith and give the woman a chance. There are great deals of cultural issues that can easily mislead you if you look at them in the wrong context. If she is not true - you will see this eventually.

 

Scott

[IluvmyLi]

I agree with everything you say David. My SO is trying to learn English and also feels a bit uncomfortable talking very often on the phone.

 

It's very easy to fall in love without having the ability to communicate fluently. Someone needs a chill pill imo.

[SheLikesME?]

I think one needs to ignore a lot of these flags by looking at all the good you see also. If you freak out at every little thing that looks wrong - you will never make it. Have a bit of faith and give the woman a chance. There are great deals of cultural issues that can easily mislead you if you look at them in the wrong context. If she is not true - you will see this eventually.

 

Scott

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Some good words there Scott. Though I have a wife who speaks fairly-fluent English, you hit the nail on the head in my situation, along with Jim's words to me.

 

Don't mean to poke my nose back in to this thread but I wrote some things about myslef and wife I would like to update. I did have a long long talk with my wife yesterday and she just laughed like a child about my being mad (I lied the day before that I was not) and jealous. Then she told me it was old male friends now immigrated to Canada she went to college with in China that she was chatting with as we talked the other day. One is married and they are very short and she is tall. I met the tall ones at our wedding party in Benxi. Her and all these guys are sport nuts and athletes/coaches. All nice guys and I like them. She knew them all when dating her first husband. As she told me about the train conductor ( I mentined in another thread I think) she just does not give it a thought that anything would happen between her and a man and she does not distinguish friends by gender. I knew it would be something like this and so I VENTED here in CFL. Sorry all, yet thanks too. Venting to her everytime I think like I have, based on my pst experiences in America, just is not the way I feel I should treat this wonderful lady.

 

Now the above was tied with my thoughts about her wanting to be so disciplined about money and our future and her usually saying NO to my wanting to come visit, because of the cost.

 

She went back and addressed my feelings/concerns over keeping the crazy love alive that brought us together. She asked and we discussed seriously about the next trip. Sure she wants to see me, but it is hard on her after I leave. Now she is used to talking with me daily and chating or emailing daily as well. Yes for us it is usually voice talk 2 times a day. So a visit is so very good, but then she goes through a withdrawal that is hard for both of us to manage.

 

All in all. I feel she likes me getting mad if I think something like this because to her it shows that I care. It would not surprise me if something like this is discussed with her sisters now as a way to show them how much I care for her. Gee where do women like this come from. It is like I can do no wrong, except when I write something she cannot understand.

 

Well all is well and I feel like a heel in front of you ladies and gentlemen. But we really had a good time sortiing out all the things on minds lately. The communication was so good and the understanding of each other taken to yet another level. Like you say Scott we have to look at the overall, which I was doing yet, I had to get a lot of little issues out on the table and deal with them. Maybe moose here needs to do the same, as many of said, communication.

 

PS: I was glad to hear of these friends plus a close lady friend of hers in Cananda now. I readliy said that hey we or you can go visit them. She said we would. I liked her other friends, all good people and we liked each other. Also it takes some of the pressure off of me once she is here. She needs friends somewhere on this side of the planet, I feel. Sorry to highjack this thread, just wanted to finish out.

[chef4u]

Doug, my man....please do not feel like a heel for your previous post. I sincerely believe that we are all here to support each other the best we can. I am very happy to read of all the good things that happen to our members and my heart gets very sad to read some of the misfortunes of some of our members. I think the most important thing to remember on this site is that we are family and famly helps family......well that is my feelings. As for you and your SO....it is good that all is well with both of you. Keep your posts or uh your feelings flowing freely and unashamed on Candle because we will be here for ya!!!! You can go to the bank on that one

[SheLikesME?]

Doug, my man....please do not feel like a heel for your previous post.  I sincerely believe that we are all here to support each other the best we can.  I am very happy to read of all the good things that happen to our members and my heart gets very sad to read some of the misfortunes of some of our members.  I think the most important thing to remember on this site is that we are family and famly helps family......well that is my feelings. As for you and your SO....it is good that all is well with both of you. Keep your posts or uh your feelings flowing freely and unashamed on Candle because we will be here for ya!!!!  You can go to the bank on that one

170420[/snapback]

HAHA Ok Thanks,

 

Yea I really had them out on my sleeves since this nose surgery. Really aired my laundry did n't I. Oh well, Glad I am off most of the pills now.

 

This all reminds me: A few years back a cousin named Bobbie Joe married a woman he met named Bobbie Joe. Well I heard that the 2 Bobbies got in an argument and he burned her wedding dress. I about bust a gut on that one. Heck I knew they would never get a divorce if he did that. They love each other. It's obvoius. ......Well she did throw the dress out the back window so my cousin being the accomodating fellow he is picked it up an dput it in the burn barrel for her..

[mercator]

I'll also mention that I 'ramped up' the communication with my wife. We started out the first few months only communicating by e-mail with a few short, awkward phone calls. Now we talk almost every day now, and rarely e-mail because she goes through a service and a translator for that as well. I can spend 10RMB calling her and talking for an hour, or she can spend 30RMB for a short email. No contest. I'll take hearing her voice any time. We started out a little awkward, but it only motivated her to learn more English and me to speak more Chinese. When I was in China, a friend of hers who spoke decent English travelled with us, and translated the difficult stuff, like explaining the paperwork procedures for our marriage and such.

 

In the meantime, before and during the 'courtship' we developed our own form of 'Chinglish' though my skills in Chinese are improving, and her English skills are really getting better. We both have our dictionaries and when we come across a word or concept we can't explain, we tell one another which page it is on, and we move on I know this will change and soon, we'll just be speaking English most of the time, but I actually cherish every minute of it. I think our communication comes straight from the heart, simple and straight-forward.

 

I don't see their lack of communication as a red flag, but talking to her often is going to help your communication and draw you together. If, God forbid, it is some sort of scam, you'll soon know, because it is simply too hard to put on an act for that long.

 

Relax and enjoy the ride.

[notrevorich]

Gosh, after reading your note I feel so blessed I wanna shout. While in Nanning last month I wanted to buy the SO some jeans, she said, "No, she had enough." Ok, I said, then let me buy you some new shoes. Again, she said, "No, I have plenty, I don't need any." I thought, man, this can't be, a woman who has too many shoes! She almost would not let me pay for anything, except for dinner a few times and maybe a cab or two. I found her independence very, very attractive. In fact, not once has she asked me for money, not even once, and I actually believe she never would - it's an unbelieveably stark contrast from my last American g/f. But of course the reality is that they have expenses, i.e., SIM cards, express mails, e-mail translations, etc, etc, that we'd like to help them with. So you may ask - do I help mine - yes, of course. Does she appreciate the help ... like I've never seen anyone appreciate help before - and that makes me feel great! The reality is that I'd been hit up several times from other girls in different parts of the world so I've learned the game some people play - food for thought, man.

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I can Say from personsal experience that my SO has never asked for money and is even insisting on buying her own Airline tickets to the USA.

She is so thrifty with money ,that she was calculating on how Not to fill the propane tank because we will be leaving .

She wants to take the Train to GUZ so we will not have to stay in a hotel the evening prior to the plane leaving

Her primary concern is for US as a Family .

I've traveled the world and the only place that I have consistently seen this selfless behavior on the part of a woman has been here in China.

its not a ME first Me only society for many of these women

[Guest fh4ever]

It's very easy to fall in love without having the ability to communicate fluently.

Of course. That's what scam artists count on.

 

I don't know if the woman in question is legit or not. I do know that ramping up their communication would be good for their relationship if it is legit, and would lead to closure sooner if it is not. Falling in love is easy. Maintaining a good relationship is hard work and requires commitment, patience, effort, understanding, and consideration. Communication is key because it's hard to have understanding without it. If you don't have understanding, it's hard to be considerate or even patient. Effort is no good unless it is effort applied in an effective way.

 

I'll cede the point that there are other forms of communication than talking on the phone. Still, the OP came to us with doubts and fears that most of us would never have. I never had the slightest doubt about my wife's sincerity. There were a million things she did, said, or didn't do or say that convinced me it was for real. The OP, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to be getting that. I think it is an extremely irresponsible position to just say "have faith, it will work out if you believe in it hard enough." There are many men in the US, including a neighbor of mine, that have been taken for thousands of dollars by scammers, and had their hearts trampled in the process.

 

I also believe that expressing his concerns to her directly is extremely bad advice. The OP was right to vent to us, and not to her. If she's innocent, and it's just a misunderstanding, then her feelings are going to be deeply hurt and she will lose trust in him. The safe way to approach this problem is to ramp up communication in general. If she is legit, she'll welcome it. If she just wants a green card, she won't want to be bothered. This sort of "test" hurts no one and in fact is good for the relationship.