where's the outrage?

[Mick]

I am somewhat startled by the lack of outrage at what has happened to Mark, myself, and many others. We were suckered by women who wanted only one thing - an American green card.

152982[/snapback]

Looks like I have a bit of catching up to do.

154393[/snapback]

Wow!

 

MoonCarolCafe!!!! So great to hear from you again. Where ya been?

[MoonCarolCafe]

Wow!

 

MoonCarolCafe!!!! So great to hear from you again. Where ya been?

You know al lthat stuff I wanted to do before she got here? Well, we have been busy doign it

 

Just living a normal married life.

[HanLi]

Wow!

 

MoonCarolCafe!!!! So great to hear from you again. Where ya been?

You know al lthat stuff I wanted to do before she got here? Well, we have been busy doign it

 

Just living a normal married life.

155274[/snapback]

now this is more like it, and what we all wish for!!

 

Thanks for the simple words of normalness!!

[ghostrider]

When your body is cold and rotting six feet under, what are the things about you and your life that will resonate through the generations? Anything at all?

 

I have squinted at the shimmer of heaven from the highest clouds and I've had my breath ripped from my chest by the cold wind of hell.

 

Life is wonderful. Your life is wonderful.

 

It is the gift you have been given, my friend.

[nygatl15]

When your body is cold and rotting six feet under, what are the things about you and your life that will resonate through the generations?  Anything at all?

 

I have squinted at the shimmer of heaven from the highest clouds and  I've had my breath ripped from my chest by the cold wind of hell. 

 

Life is wonderful.  Your life is wonderful. 

 

It is the gift you have been given, my friend.

156324[/snapback]

Dude, hang in there. Life will get better. Every part of our life seems to go through season. this is not a good season for you. The spring will come again. Have you tried dating again? I know sometimes we get down, but it is imperitive that we get up again ASAP.

[vincent214]

I can't add to the thoughtful replies, except to say the same things perhaps a little differently. I think chinadave has a valid point about CFL members' reluctance to judge women who "sucker" men. I think also that Feathers (September 11, 2005 01:58 am.) is right on in his opinion -

 

that (CFL) "outrage" is tempered because a lot of us start to fear that we may be suckered ourselves. There is a great deal of trust we have to put into someone so far away, and let's not forget that this forum has seen bad intentions on the part of the petitioner as well.

 

Certainly none of us can ever know both sides of any member's specific issue. But do we need to know? If we did know, would it help much? I think not. Every individual relationship has its own unique setting. I agree, we cannot judge individual partners of CFL members without knowledge. But nor should we with knowledge. I believe, nor should we judge CFL members who in their enormous suffering ask us to be outraged. Except for very unusual circumstances, I also think that when very personal details are publicly revealed in a world forum, it is a mistake. I don't believe it's fair to our SO's, to ourselves, and to our relationship. No matter what is revealed, the situation can never be fully explained, and never be fully understood by others anyway. So, in part it turns into a form of gossip. That could be harmful. Having said that, we could speak publicly in more general terms about this very serious worry that I suspect we have all had at one time or another. We need not bash anyone's partner - except perhaps in the most flagrant instances where abuse and molestation are evident. We can judge practices in a generic sense. And we should. We know there are women, Chinese, American or otherwise, who claim to "love" - but for material gain. They are very real. They have little conscience. With apparent warm but cold cunning they exploit the easiest vulnerabily - love. There are men who do similarly.

 

Trigg and others say, we all have an "agenda". Yes. This in itself is not necessarily negative or sneaky. There is nothing wrong with wanting a better life. Often these agenda's are natural and normal - that is to seek a partner who complements us in various ways, brings many joys, a partner who inspires us, and more. There is nothing wrong in a Chinese woman wanting to be part of our American life *and* wanting a husband who will love her, and a husband to love. And a better life for her children if she has children. These can be all true - and at the same time.

 

Sfarkas103 (sept 10, 2005) said, Chinese culture breeds deceit (as does American culture in it's own brand of deceit). Yes, it does. I think, particularly in the often need of "Saving Face". I think this one issue alone (Save Face) goes too long a way to creating lies. But, when put into a cultural context, the Save Face lies to some degree are not intended to harm or manipulate, but rather to protect oneself from the pain of ("group" "family" "individual") embarrassment. Where this exists, it can create problems when a partner does not want to or can't, own his/her own stuff, not the least of which is not having important, authentic, dialog with our Beloved, along with much laughter. For my money, this has to be slowly, carefully, and lovingly approached, for any kind of transformation.

 

In this "suckering" problem, I think visa fraud in itself is not the main issue for CFL members. I think it's emotional *betrayal* - and all the accompanying feelings - betrayal by our SO's and/or betrayal of ourselves. When we get into a relationship with honest love & faith & belief & trust -- betrayal strikes the core of our very being. It can become a horrible bottomless black hole. I suspect many on CFL know this - first hand. The opposite is hope. I commend the heartfelt support, compassion, suggestions, CFL gives. That support is a lifeline of hope. But "betrayal" is not always betrayal. As Don and others said, sometimes intentions and belief were honest. It just didn't work out. Of course, knowing this, does not eliminate one's suffering. It reduces it.

 

Some posts talk of the need for more time together - more opportunities to get to know each other - lessening the chance of a "stranger in my bed", etc. Some posts talk of the "language barrier" and "cultural difference barrier". I agree - sort of. But, I'm reminded of the fact that 50%+ of American marriages end in divorce anyway - among couples who *had* been together for many years .... couples in the same culture, speaking the same language. I guess this is all to say, the mystery of individual relationship and love is just that - a mystery of depth and beauty - notwithstanding the "how to books".

 

To chinadave and Mark - I don't know you as others do, but along with other CFL members, I also deeply feel for you guys. I know you realize, what matters now is what you do with it all. Maybe you left out pieces - maybe you simply told it as you see it - maybe there are a lot of verifiable pieces - probably all of the above. But - as Ghostrider said (Sept 23,2005 01:37am)

 

"Obviously, I don't know the details of your situation but it doesn't matter. I will just say this to you: don't be afraid of the truth.... the truth about your relationship and the truth about yourself."

 

Sorry for the long post. Best wishes everyone. Vincent

[obxtrainman]

MMM, the quiet one finally speaks, and so eloquently I tried to get you, Vincent, to talk several nights ago in the chat room. I see now, as I felt then, you were testing the waters. Welcome aboard, and thanks for the eloquently written post.

[HanLi]

Vincent, great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts on a sensitive issue....

[ameriken]

I can't add to the thoughtful replies, except to say the same things perhaps a little differently. I think chinadave has a valid point about CFL members' reluctance to judge women who "sucker" men. I think also that Feathers (September 11, 2005 01:58 am.) is right on in his opinion -

 

that (CFL) "outrage" is tempered because a lot of us start to fear that we may be suckered ourselves. There is a great deal of trust we have to put into someone so far away, and let's not forget that this forum has seen bad intentions on the part of the petitioner as well. 

 

Certainly none of us can ever know both sides of any member's specific issue.  But do we need to know? If we did know, would it help much?  I think not.  Every individual relationship has its own unique setting.  I agree, we cannot judge individual partners of CFL members without knowledge.  But nor should we with knowledge.  I believe,  nor should we judge CFL members who in their enormous suffering ask us to be outraged.  Except for very unusual circumstances, I also think that when very personal details are publicly revealed in a world forum, it is a mistake.  I don't believe it's fair to our SO's,  to ourselves, and to our relationship.  No matter what is  revealed, the situation can never be fully explained, and never be fully understood by others anyway.  So, in part it turns into a form of gossip.  That could be harmful.  Having said that, we could speak publicly in more general terms about this very serious worry that I suspect we have all had at one time or another. We need not bash anyone's partner - except perhaps in the most flagrant instances where abuse and molestation are evident.  We can judge practices in a generic sense.    And we should.  We know there are women, Chinese, American or otherwise, who claim to "love" - but for material gain.  They are very real.  They have little conscience.  With apparent warm  but cold cunning they exploit the easiest vulnerabily - love.  There are men who do similarly. 

 

Trigg and others say, we all have an "agenda". Yes.  This in itself is not necessarily negative or sneaky. There is nothing wrong  with wanting a better life.  Often these agenda's are natural and normal - that is to seek a partner who complements us in various ways, brings many joys, a partner who inspires us, and more.  There is nothing wrong in a Chinese woman wanting to be part of our American life *and* wanting a husband who will love her, and a husband to love.  And a better life for her children if she has children. These can be all true - and  at the same time. 

 

Sfarkas103 (sept 10, 2005) said,  Chinese culture breeds deceit (as does American culture in it's own brand of deceit).  Yes, it does.  I think, particularly in the often need of "Saving Face". I think this one issue alone (Save Face) goes too long a way to creating lies. But, when put into a cultural context, the Save Face lies to some degree are not intended to harm or manipulate, but rather to protect oneself from the pain of ("group" "family" "individual") embarrassment.  Where this exists,  it can create problems when a partner does not want to or can't,  own his/her own stuff, not the least of which is not having important, authentic,  dialog with our Beloved, along with much laughter.  For my money, this has to be slowly, carefully, and lovingly approached, for any kind of transformation.

 

In this "suckering" problem,  I think visa  fraud in itself  is not the main issue for CFL members.  I think it's emotional *betrayal* - and all the accompanying feelings - betrayal by our SO's and/or betrayal of ourselves.  When we get into a relationship with honest love & faith & belief & trust --  betrayal strikes the core of our very being.  It can become a horrible bottomless black hole.  I suspect many on CFL know this - first hand. The opposite is hope.  I commend the heartfelt support, compassion, suggestions,  CFL gives. That support is a lifeline of hope.  But "betrayal" is not always betrayal. As Don and others said, sometimes intentions and belief were honest. It just didn't work out.  Of course, knowing this, does not eliminate one's suffering.  It reduces it.

 

Some posts talk of the need for more time together - more opportunities to get to know each other - lessening the chance of a "stranger in my bed", etc.    Some posts talk of the "language barrier" and "cultural difference barrier". I agree - sort of. But, I'm reminded of the fact that 50%+ of American marriages end in divorce  anyway - among couples who *had* been together for many years .... couples in the same culture, speaking the same language. I guess this is all to say,  the mystery of individual relationship and love is just that - a mystery of depth and beauty - notwithstanding the "how to books".

 

To chinadave and Mark - I don't know you as others do, but along with other CFL members, I also deeply feel for you guys.  I know you realize, what matters now is what you do with it all.  Maybe you left out pieces - maybe you simply told it as you see it - maybe there are a lot of verifiable pieces - probably all of the above.  But - as Ghostrider said  (Sept 23,2005 01:37am)

 

"Obviously, I don't know the details of your situation but it doesn't matter. I will just say this to you: don't be afraid of the truth.... the truth about your relationship and the truth about yourself." 

 

Sorry for the long post.  Best wishes everyone.  Vincent

156513[/snapback]

Very good, very powerful words, thanks for the offering !

[mercator]

Wow. Quite a post. Made me uncomfortable reading it. I don't want to think it could happen to me. Maybe it's because I was divorced twice before... Once, I knew it was coming, we both sort of gave up. We married too young and grew apart. The second time was a bolt out of the blue, though things weren't all roses and champagne... Another man, and perhaps the worst Christmas present my ex could have given the kids and I...

 

I wait a couple of years, date a few people I realize are wrong for me, and I meet Quikui... Slowly at first, but then at a quickening pace I realize... WOW. Intelligent, beautiful, sophisticated, yet grounded... We meet in China and we just know. I did go there looking for any red flags, going to verify I was doing the right thing. What I had was green flags... Seeing her out of the corner of my eye giving me that 'look' thinking I didnt see her doing it, that same look I myself would give her when she wasn't looking...

 

If she was visa hunting, then her family (all 40 of them) put on a heck of a show. The graciousness and hospitality they gave me was genuine and generous. The wedding reception was toasts and feasting, and blissful. I find it hard to believe she duped them as well as me. I was asked my thoughts on her coming to America, as well as if I wanted to live in China. They asked, perhaps as a formality, if she would be able to come back and visit (of course she could), and, god forbid, return to China if the marriage did not work. I don't know if Qiukui would stay or not, if something happened. I hope never to find out. I have every intention of doing all I can to keep her happy, comfortable, and loved every day of her life.

 

That's all I can do. That's all any of us can do. I'm not going to hold anything back. Life is too short. Do I have a 'contingency plan?' Only to bounce back if something happens. Nothing more.

 

Yes, there are visa diggers out there, just as there are gold diggers here.

 

You could get hit by a car tomorrow, too. It won't stop me from driving.

 

Another person posted how you can't live your live hiding in the corner. Live it, embrace it, go for it. Be careful, but don't forget live your life.

 

Merc

[chinadave2001]

I think that the only thing that I would wish to add to this thread is this:

There's a trap that we, as Americans, can fall into. At least I did. It's the "cultural understanding" trap. If your gut tells that something is not right, some little trigger goes off in your head, listen to it very carefully and do not simply dismiss it as a "cultural difference." I am a well travelled 40 year old history teacher who teaches this stuff (cultural relativity and such ) and it came back to haunt me because no matter how poorly she acted, I always rationalized it as being either a cultural difference or a manifestation of the stress of the situation. In reality, she was just a very evil, psychopathic person who wanted only one thing - a green card. There were so many red flags that I dismissed that it makes me feel really stupid to think about it now. Maybe the rest of you are just smarter than I am. Or Luckier.

[Randy W]

. . . or just flat don't have the red flags.

[david_dawei]

I feel the same as others have shared.. I don't want to know the complete picture since it ain't none of my business.. and I can't judge or feel any outrage due to accusations I am not certain of what all happened...

 

So, I'd rather comment generally and not intended to anyone's specific situation.

 

If a woman wants a green card, by hell or high water, she will probably get it and there will certainly be some hurt along the way. If someone is like that, they probably have a great number of tricks and false hopes they can express that would trick most of us.

 

If I feel any outrage, it would be towards oppression (and this visa process to some appears to be close to one on a certain level) which causes people to be compelled to take certain measure...

 

If anyone is to be called the 'smart' one, it would be a person able to get out of their country and get a greencard on false pretense. I think all the rest are lucky ones to find each other...

[Dennis143]

Having recently ended my relationship with my SO, I have to agree with ChinaDave: If your gut tells that something is not right, some little trigger goes off in your head, listen to it very carefully and do not simply dismiss it as a "cultural difference." Although she wasn't a visa hunter and we ended it mutually, my biggest regret is the time that I wasted. Looking back, there were many things that my "gut told me" didn't add up. Not only do we need to be wary of the visa chasers, but the signs that tell us if there is true love or not.

 

Not sure what most of your feelings are about this, but I read somewhere that the the stringent visa interview process is set-up purposely to protect us from ourselves.

[david_dawei]

Having recently ended my relationship with my SO, I have to agree with ChinaDave: If your gut tells that something is not right, some little trigger goes off in your head, listen to it very carefully and do not simply dismiss it as a "cultural difference."  Although she wasn't a visa hunter and we ended it mutually, my biggest regret is the time that I wasted.  Looking back, there were many things that my "gut told me" didn't add up.  Not only do we need to be wary of the visa chasers, but the signs that tell us if there is true love or not.

 

Not sure what most of your feelings are about this, but I read somewhere that the the stringent visa interview process is set-up purposely to protect us from ourselves.

163566[/snapback]

The "Failed Relationship" Thread (or a new one) may be a good spot to pursue that thought.. reasons for a failed relationship are many.. whether the process hurts or helps is a good question...