shyaushu

Unbeknownest to the uncaring and very disregarding DOS Goobers in Guangzhou work force, our bona fide relationship has only gotten stronger during the debacle they drug us through for 10 months. Trap - there are hundreds of CFL'ers out there hoping and praying that you and the l'il rabbit get treated like human beings one of these days. You both have done everything possible to satisfy the powers that be, yet, for some reason, it has fallen on deaf ears and blind eyes. After all this time and so many LONG trips to China how can they say "not a bona fide relationship? Some of us get more chances than others (like me!) and who the heck can tell why? My wife and I will never really be happy in the US (we are headed back in mid-August) until you and your wife are there, too.

What an interesting document. If I were you I would delete or somehow obscure all the personal information on it before publishing it on the Internet. Unscrupulous people are good at misusing such information. Just for argument's sake, my wife and I were able to do a DCF (file our I-130 directly at the US Embassy in Beijing) on August 29, 2007 with nothing more than my "Z" (work) visa. I was on my way to a teaching position in central China. All went well (and quickly) until the snag after the interview. My wife received a blue card because I had been married briefly to another Chinese woman and had successfully sponsored her green card. To make matters worse, I met my new wife while my divorce was on-going, and we were married only three months after it was finalized. The point of all this is that even with the three month delay in working to "overturn" the blue card (in quotes because a blue card is a non-decision and there is nothing to actually overturn) and the serious complications in our case, we still got our visa (just a few days ago . . . hooray!) in nine months. That's the speed of light in visa terms. So, if you are impatient about things, filing directly at the Embassy or an appropriate Consulate will shave months off the visa process. And such in-China filings have maintained their 100% success rate, with the granting of our visa. So they are a pretty certain way, too. Good luck. By the way, there is a lot of interesting stuff lurking under the skeleton of your story and perhaps it will emerge over time.

We had a labor dispute in China: a school I taught at refused to pay me my last month's salary ~ it's sad to say this is quite common here, and many Chinese schools and universities do not share our sense of honesty and fairness. We went to the US Consulate in Guangzhou and they gave us a list of lawyers in the Guangdong/Guangxi area and their specialties. Many of the lawyers on the list specialized in labor law. As of May 1 in China the new labor and contract law goes into effect and it dramatically shifts the burden of proof from the employee to, now, the employer. So, the employer must prove misconduct, incompetence or whatever and the employee only needs to present contrary evidence. Of course, most employers are extremely upset about this new law. If your husband worked in one of the aforementioned provinces I can send you the names of lawyers in that area that are on the list. But the Consulate can probably also help you find lawyers in other parts of China. The Consulate is good at doing things like THAT.

We also chose HCC because they could also provide the immunizations. They were a bit expensive but professional and such. They can do it real fast, too.

Indeed, that is the point, Charles. Empathetic concern is certainly far removed from benign indifference. He can't be the only DCFer that had a chinese exwife that scammed him before. It's understandable that they might want to look at this a little closer. The problem is, how long will it take?

I'm not sure if you are empathetic, surprised or sarcastic. I hope it's one of the first two. Yes, we received a blue card (they are 8X10 cardboard cards) with nothing checked (i.e., "we cannot issue a visa for the following reasons . . .") and only a hand written request (in the margins of the blue card) asking for two statements from me and an additional photo. Seven weeks after we sent them that stuff we are still waiting to hear from them. Since previously "DCF" filings have been 100% successful, we are a little surprised. My wife and I have been married for a year and we have been living in China together for almost 10 months. At what point do we become a legitimate couple?

I know many readers of the Candle will wonder why all this brouhaha about spelling names. In itself, it doesn't seem very important, and it isn't, really. But we are all in a very vulnerable position (things are being done to us, and we have little, if any power to effect the outcome). So, in a sense, we are a bit (albeit it a tiny bit!) like a condemned man who has written the governor for a reprieve of his death sentence. Certainly the man's heart would sink into his stomach if the first thing he read in the governor's response was his mis-spelled name! In a way, there would be no reason to read any further. The impression is they really don't even have a very good idea who they are writing to. This process is degrading and demeaning enough without the additional insult of their giving the impression they don't actually know who you are. This is the Consulate of the United States of America, after all, and they are writing to an American citizen. Some level of respect and deference is called for.

That is certainly the $64 question, benc. You are assuming there is a "procedure". That place is as opaque as a brick wall. For all anyone knows, they might have two piles in the office: one pile is for people whose chains they just wanted to yank, and the other is for people whose case is denied but they want to torture them for a while first. The first pile people get a quick "overturn" and walk away smiling. The second pile people get to stew in their own juices for months (or years) while the case is "under review". Sort of like "the check is in the mail". There is no doubt that making THAT particular process transparent would help a great number of people get off of the waiting-in-limbo square and make other plans for their lives. Perhaps someone out there in candle land knows of a "flow chart" of how blue card reviews go? I don't.

Oh, I knew it was just their way of putting me off with the "we're working on it" thing. I am always hopeful things will work out fine (what have I done wrong?). But I would not like to be caught in a maelstrom of unending "review". I did feel, however, for my $1,000 and eight months of time they could at least write a letter in regular English, instead of Chinglish. But whatever they write, idiomatic or not, they are still saying nothing. That must be a long queue for a photo and a one page letter to remain unlooked at for 6 weeks. Alas! (quote) I sympathise with ya ol' buddy, let's just count our lucky stars that the government doesn't treat our wimmin and their kids like they used to treat the american Indians....have the soldiers round 'em up and slaughter them them by using them for target practice. It'll work out buddy, hang tough. tsap seui

I e-mailed the Consulate a few days ago asking for information about our blue card "overturn". I put this in quotes because nothing was checked on the form and no reason was given for their not wanting to issue a visa at that time, so we are basically talking about overturning a non-decision) ~ a logical contradiction. Here is their response. Is this the usual "Don't call us; we'll call you"? The syntax was not edited by me and this is the exact message the US government sent to me. Did they say anything here, besides that they got it? "Dear Mr. ****** (name spelled wrong), Please be advised that we have received the submission of your overcome documents. Your wife's case is in the line of waiting for being reviewed. We are unable to predict when it will be finished. But rest assured that we will contact your wife immediately by mail once her case is ready for continued processing. Sincerely, Immigrant Visa Unit U.S. Consulate General Guangzhou"

Indeed, when a friend introduces a couple and the friend is seen by USCIS as probably being a marriage broker, it is a small step to mistakes equaling fraud. The tragedy is that we all must live with the paranoia of others. USCIS has a history of punishing carelessness and stupidity with vigor equal to that of fraud. You really need to jump through all the hoops carefully, or you could be in a world of hurt.

I visited this site and noticed the following: "Nonprofit status of requesting organization in furtherance of the cultural and social interests of the United States". I am not sure about the "non-profit status" part (but it certainly describes my finances) but the ". . . furtherance of the cultural and social interests of the United States" part is exactly why 95% of these visas should be approved without delay. Three months or so would be about right. It is obviously pie-in-the-sky, but what could be more in the interest of the United States than to see it's law-abiding citizens reunited with their families? So sad . . .

Wow! I didn't know that. My wife and I are currently sitting on a blue card and if they deny us we essentially have no options? We will never live together in the US? They sort of exile US citizens if they have been denied a CR-1 visa? Even if we continue live here (in China) for two or three years we can never do anything to make it back to the US as husband and wife? What sense is there in that?

Your comments here are well taken, credzba, and you make some very good points. It is true that past history of color discrimination does not [necessarily] imply a trend, but there is some current evidence, too. And such a small number of countries in the world ever practiced slavery as an official policy. Some of the things you say do point to a singling out of China and the Chinese (vs. Indians, especially) and, while this is regrettable in itself, it makes me wonder. Is it "just" economics? The Indians don't "look Asian" that much, and English is one of their official languages. I really don't know. We all hope your continuing to implore your senators and others to level the playing field has the desired effect. We should all do the same. But in any case, it is refreshing to actually have a dialog about this issue.

I objected to being branded a ¡°cynic¡±, with an added ¡°and that¡¯s being generous¡± so I used personal messages to communicate. But I was unsuccessful. Reductio ad homenum (attacking the person, rather than arguing the merits of the evidence) is what people do in grade school: adults discuss matters without name calling. So, I offer these indisputable facts to support my statement that the US is bent on preventing the further browning and yellowing of the country. (1) As soon as they arrived, white British Colonialists and Americans imported millions of human beings to work as the equivalent of mules for the sole reasons that their skin was dark and they couldn¡¯t defend themselves. This continued for at least 300 years. (2) As a byproduct of the Civil War that prevented the US from splitting in two, the slaves were ¡°freed¡±, but most of the country continued in the semi-enslavement of the resident black population. Black people were systematically hanged, tortured and black women raped for another 100 years, with public police authorities doing little, of anything to prevent it. Many times it was the police, themselves, who committed these crimes. (3) The public safety authorities and even the FBI worked tirelessly and specifically to undermine and suppress any and all efforts to create a truly equal society for decades afterward. The life¡¯s work of one of the greatest human beings of the 20th Century, Martin Luther King, was undermined and subverted by the US Department of Justice. (4) During WW II thousands of American citizens were rounded up and exiled to concentration camps, and their possessions confiscated, solely because their skin was yellow and their ancestry Japanese. (5) To this day that pattern continues. As a percentage of population almost three times the number of black people are in prison (mostly on drug charges, using laws specifically targeted at black use of ¡°crack¡± cocaine) compared to whites. The numbers are almost as bad when brown people are considered. (6) At one time the US Congress passed laws specifically banning Chinese immigration to this country. Can anyone imagine a US law banning British people from emigrating? If saying the Emperor has no clothes is ¡°cynical¡± then I stand convicted. But tell me, exactly what would you call a person who labels a black man "cynical" for holding a sign that says ¡°I am a man¡±?

"Oh Oh ! Call on me lao shi! I can answer this one. We can't because .. AARP - once your old you stay old until you die, so your interest in mending the system continues. Cuban - Once your born Cuban, you remain Cuban until you die, so your interest in mending the system continues. Gun Lobby - Once your born redneck, you remain so even AFTER death ... (I dunno about these folks really). Petitioner/Applicant - Ends the day you get the pink or white paper. The nightmare for you ends, and continuing to fight with the government can only have negative consequences for you. btw. I am not cynical, I am an activist." Good job, Grasshopper. Yes, that is surely why the Candle folks have continued to bury their heads in the sands of visa denial. You get your death sentence and the forked road ahead is bleak: a solitary life in the US, with as many cross Pacific trips as you can afford each year, or a life as an ex-patriot in a country where the average person sees you as some kind of two-headed calf (never just another human being). So, it will take some truly selfless work on the part of everyone, including those who have been successful, to continue their dedication to reforming this monstrosity.

Your comments are quite interesting, David. I really need to check in a dictionary to be sure, but tellin' it like it is wasn't part of any definition of "cynical" the last time I looked. It reminds me of the story about the "Emperor's New Clothes". But this time a bystander shouts "How can that little boy be so cynical?" when he states the obvious. The only thing cynical here are the people in the State Department, and especially those in the Executive branch. Oh, they all certainly talk the talk ("we're here to ensure proper eligibility") but the walk they walk is doing everything they can to make getting a visa an expensive Kafkaesque nightmare. Congress did not legislate the ridiculously complicated and duplicative forms they require (except for the I-864), or anything else about the actual process, and their resorting to all manner of subjective and opinionated assessments when making a "decision" is simply a lot of crap. What exactly are they deciding, anyway? Someone's "eligibility"? Really! Why haven't they already decided that after we filled out 400 forms and paid them $1,000? No, a 5 or 10 minute "interview" ~ conducted from behind 2" of bullet proof glass, with a tiny slot for inserting documents ~ is now going to provide the visa official with new and critical information. Such as what? Whether my wife is a little too cute to be simply in love with her husband? Whether she is dressed too well for her socio-economic status in China? Whether she "looks" like a scammer? Indeed! Exactly what are they expecting to learn from behind their glass fortress that will provide the "smoking gun" of visa fraud that they don't already know? As for your comments about "the volume and the pragmatism of [the] Chinese" making it close to impossible to get a system to operate properly, you'll have to explain that one to me. I have no idea what you are talking about. Five minutes in the Citizen's Services section of the Consulate is enough to tell you the US government calls the shots in there. They do whatever they want. Your final comments regarding the excellent and extremely valuable work everyone does on the Candle is certainly true, and I said as much in my little piece. But it is a little like wishing a man on the gallows good luck. The next step for the Candle is to start a grass roots political action group that will lobby Congress to exercise much greater oversight of the CR-1 and K visa processes, and to make the executive branch live up to the standard the American people expect. That is, simply, you fill out one or two simple forms, pay a reasonable fee, and, if there is nothing objective in your application that speaks of fraud or deception, the USCIS MUST issue the visa. It must be a transparent and totally objective process. Someone's feelings, even a visa official's, don't count. The Cuban lobby, the gun lobby, the AARP did it; why can't we?

There is a rhyme and reason, Paul, and to find them just look at some of the previous posts. The US government considers its efforts to prevent the "browning" of America a lost cause, and the Miami-based Cuban lobby is a squeaky wheel, if there ever was one. (The irony of that situation is that our Cuban immigration policy is the perfect way to get a Cuban criminal or subversive here. Just drop him off somewhere a north Florida beach and we will welcome him with hot coffee and blankets). The "reason" for all this idiocy is that the US government thinks it may be able to prevent the further "yellowing" of America, especially when it looks at the 1.3 billion people here in China. It's a frightening number, for sure. So, it figures making life as difficult as possible for most Asians to come to the US is a good idea. The only reason you are confused is because you are operating under the assumption the US government's visa policy is well-intended and in good faith. It is not. It is the US's immigration policies, and in particular the Chinese CR-1 visa process, that is not bona fide! It is meant to exclude all those it can manage to exclude (not just "scammers" or others trying to get into the US by deception), and not provide a way for the legitimate spouse's of American citizens here so they can live their lives as all other married couples do. Who speaks for us in Congress (the US citizens who have married Asian nationals)? No one. That's why things haven't changed.

You definitely make an excellent point, David. The laws authorizing spousal immigration probably pre-dated the Internet, and Congress surely did not anticipate the flood of applications that resulted from how easy it would be to connect with people all over the world. Prior to that these kinds of visas were probably almost exclusively used by people who met and married their spouses while stationed overseas or working in foreign countries for extended periods. But the State Dept. interpreted their mandate in an extremely cynical way. They argued (reasonably) that the Internet was also a new, convenient way for people to try to become US residents through some kind of scheme or rouse. So they made the decision to "get into" the [sponsor's and/or beneficiary's] minds and make a "gut" decision about their their real intentions, as if they could actually do that. I suppose they sold this new approach as "being proactive", but it is just the sow's ear of subjectivity made into the silk purse of a reasonable determination. But there is nothing "reasonable" about it (or they would give reasons!). The focal point is what is all this fuss about? Yes, there are definitely bad actors out there who will use the Internet (or a marriage broker or "friend") to massage the visa system and gain entry and potential residency into the US. So what? What exactly is so bad about some ~ perhaps even quite a few ~ Chinese women (or men) using the visa application system to gain entry when they could not have otherwise done that? What are we afraid they will do here? We have vetted them in every way and in every direction. We know everything there is to know about them, their family, their schooling, their previous work, their criminal records . . . even the inside of their bodies! The probability of a subversive or serious criminal coming here with all that scrutiny is almost zero. So, the worst that will happen is some cute 30 year old Chinese woman will marry a 60 year old fart like me, divorce him soon after arriving in the US, and then meet and marry the 35 year old stock broker she really hoped for and make a new life in the US. The old fart (me) gets harmed, I suppose, at least emotionally, but the stock broker is happy and so is the Chinese immigrant. I just don't see the potential exposure justifying the Kafkaesque visa process nor the unjustifiable subjectivity of the entire thing. It's simply a cost~ benefit equation. So many lives (of American citizens!) made tragic for such a small (potential) gain. The irony of it all seems to be that they don't even trust their own process! If they have "vetted" all the applicants so carefully then they should be confident about "going" with the determinations they made. But they aren't.

Yes, the fee, whatever it is this minute, is payable in either currency. I saved around $500 back in August when I first arrived in China for that very purpose. I felt the RMB was very likely to appreciate vis-a-vis the US dollar and I wanted to see which currency would give me the prettiest blue card for my dollar. We saved about $45 dollars by paying in dollars, versus giving them the RMB amount they wanted. Someone, please remind me what the approximately $1,000 total in visa fees buys? The fair amount should really be around $200.

Well, I can hardly blame the Mexicans and Central Americans, really. Who wouldn't travel somewhere else if life there was much better? We did the same thing here: our life living and teaching in Henan Province was the pits and now that we are living in Guangzhou and teaching at a university it's like we died and went to heaven. We just didn't have to break any laws to do it. The confusion regarding their resorting to such absurdities as "not a bona fide relationship" comes from a fundamental misunderstanding regarding what GUZ does. For, instead of being the diligent, hard-working public servants we pay them to be, they are actually in the business of keeping as many people (Chinese and most other Asians) out of the US on whatever pretext they can conjure up. They are not working for the American people: they are working for the Executive branch. If they were doing the job we pay them to do they would look closely at each person's (too many) application forms, check all of the information, cash our checks (again, way too much), and grant a visa to any and every foreign spouse of an American citizen who completed everything properly, paid all the (way too expensive) fees, and in whose applications there was nothing objective that raised doubts. Since there's precious little of that stuff (objective, hard evidence that fraud or deception is going on), they work hard instead to offer any plausible denial they can and, if they had it their way, no visas would ever be granted. But the American people and Congress would raise the roof if they did that, of course, because Congress passed a number of laws that requires the Executive branch to issue immigration visas to the spouses of American citizens. So, they try to issue the minimum number possible ~ just enough to prevent raised eyebrows or Congressional investigations. The real reason they offer us such drivel as "not a boa fide" relationship and the related bullshit is because they have NOTHING objective in the application upon which to base the denial they want to issue, so they resort to subjective assessments. They "don't like the way two people met" or there are not enough photos of the two of them in dreamlike adoration of each other. Meeting on the Internet is "bad"; meeting at a church social is "good." Even meeting through mutual friends is suspect: hell, the "mutual friend" was actually a sort of marriage pimp! That's why all this primping and fretting about how to look and what to say in the interview is so silly, really. None of that matters. It is based on the assumption that getting an immigration visa is like getting a driver's license. To get a license you pass the written test (objective), pass the eye exam (objective) and then pass the driving test (semi-objective) and they issue you a license. The driving examiners do not resort to such childishness as saying "I didn't believe the applicant was confident enough behind the wheel" or "They really don't appear to be old enough to drive." You pays your money and you gets your license. The visa officials (and more to the point, their handlers) are intent on doing everything they can to cut down on immigration and "fairness" or objectivity are not in their vocabulary. Believing they are sincere or straight up in their work is a dangerous self-deception. We all just hope and pray we are among the ones they decide to let pass so they can keep congress off their backs. The wonderful work that everyone on the Candle does is great, but it is focused entirely on the margins: helping people understand the (purposely-complicated and bizarre) process; learning about the time frames; helping fill out the many forms (one would suffice), etc. It definitely helps many people in these things, but a real impact on the unconscionable immigration process as practiced by the USCIS will not occur without a fundamental change of focus.

We had our interview on Feb. 20th. They wanted $380 bucks just to get our foot in the door. There's something about paying $340 if you already paid the "surcharge". But definitely bring about $400 US or about 3,300 RMB to give them. Them blue slips are expensive! Hey Sadie - can you verify one thing for me ? Does your appointment letter say 'how to pay' ? Previously, this fee was paid at a bank, receipt was brought to interview. Warmest Regards .. we didnt pay at the bank, we paid directly at the interview......maybe things have changed! who knows.....

That is certainly true, and the operative word is "should" be awarded. But really, is the slim possibility of catching a "scammer" worth the incalculable harm done by separating two people committed to their marriage and their shared lives? Someone, please tell me what "National Security Interest", or any other interest, for that matter, is served by making people endure this incredibly complex and expensive process just to "weed out" the one in a hundred or one in 500 dishonest people? And how exactly does it hurt the US or its citizens if some Chinese person marries an American, manages to make it to the US and a green card, leaves him or her, and now is flipping burgers in the Bronx? I admit it's "dishonest" and all, but it's the classic shooting mosquitoes with a shotgun. There are certainly very few "hits" for all the other lives disrupted or destroyed. And these are the lives of American citizens! What's the point? Especially when hundreds of illegal aliens cross our southern borders every day, and the only effort made to stop them is the erection of 150 miles of fence along a 1500 mile border and some security cameras? Is it just me, or are Chinese people being singled out? Instead of actually following the law Congress passed, the USCIS is engaged in making such important evaluations as whether a relationship is going to last ("how did the people meet?") or if it is "bona fide", despite a marriage certificate, photos of the couple's lives together, and, often, after the two people have lived together for months or years. Don't forget, by the time of the interview they have checked into the spouse's entire life, his or her parent's and sibling's lives, past addresses, previous schools and jobs ~ everything. So, Osama Bin Laden would be caught in the initial application. It's all beyond me, and the very definition of bureaucracy run amok.

That was a very touching comment. And you certainly managed to say some warm and emotional things in English. Chinese is a very different language, of course, but it is not THAT different. You'll manage to say warm, meaningful things in it: it's just a matter of time. Oh, there will be dissagreers, but that's the reason for this forum. In China you can buy posters with the pictures of common animals, household items and whatever for 1 or 2 RMB. They have the Chinese characters and Pinyin and also the tone indicator. I supposed they were intended for kids so they could learn but they are great for those of us who want to learn Mandarin. You might be able to lay your hands on some. There's a lot exciting about learning a language like Chinese. We often sit around with other teachers here (I teach at a university) and the only common language between us is Mandarin. We all get along fine. It's very inspiring to communicate with so many different nationalities in a language like Chinese. English is not the only language in the world. The beer helps, too. No one disagreed with you after all I am NOT good with languages, I speak english poorly, and it is my primary language. However I agree with you 100% on each person working toward the other in terms of learning our spouses native language. Not everyone is interested in doing this, and for their relationship, it must not be important. Before we got married I wanted to learn mandarin, and when she gets here, I will speak mandarin as often as I can. One important benefit, that you pointed out, is the ability to say words that touch her heart. I don't know if everyone knows this, and only I am slow to learn, but I found that words in a foreign language have no emotion. By that I mean I can say <really bad chinese word> in front of my wife, strangers, anyone. It doesn't bother me at all because it has no emotional tie to me. If I try to say the same thing translated into english (even in china where they probably wouldn't even know what I was saying) I wouldn't do it. I can not say something terrible in front of my wife or strangers. This concept of words having an emotional tie goes with saying loving things too. My inability to tell my wife she is special, using words that touch her heart is a deficiency I need to solve. And so I study, It isn't easy for me, and I am stupid and forget often. But when I understand her, she is so cute and loving to me for it, that it makes my work worthwhile. My latest idea (for those interested) is I have white stickers all over my house. I labeled the ice box, table, chairs, sugar, thermostat .. etc with the pinyin for those items. Then each time I use one of them I think of the chinese word for that item. Nothing says "I love you" like doing something to prove it (IMO).

Most of the time I, myself, don't know what is "important" for the interview for the USCIS people stationed in Guangzhou and I am not sure anyone else knows that. It seems to change from week-to-week and from visa official to visa official. But the long term deal is a lifetime together and that, certainly, is a give-and-take proposition. All of our Chinese partners (most, but not all of whom are woman), are making this incredibly radical change in their lives. They are usually leaving their native country and their loved ones, sometimes even minor children, and making a new life in a completely new place with a different language, culture, history, values, and whatever. Meanwhile back at the farm, most of us (most of whom are men) are awaiting our spouses and anticipating the day when they "learn English" and they "adjust " to life in the US. What I am asking is "what about our commitment?" Not the financial commitment forced on us by the I-864, but the commitment of language, culture, values, etc. Their sacrifice seems so much greater than ours. We all seem mostly passive in this process, other than the very active exercise of sponsoring them and paying fees and committing our financial lives to them for many years. But what about the personal stuff? My point is everyone can learn to carry on a simple conversation in Mandarin or Guangdong-Hua, and at the very least it will give all of us who do a much greater appreciation for the effort (and usually remarkable success) our spouses have made when they actually learn English well. And at best it will help all of us in our communication together. If nothing else, now I know how hard it is to communicate some intensely personal things to my wife and lover in Chinese and I will remember that when she tries to tell me something too subtle for her level of English. I agree with the concept that it is valuable for your life together however I also think it will have little or no impact on the interview in most cases. Fan de hen!! ·³µÃºÜ£¡£¡