Prenuptial Agreements?

[Guest enight]

... many of the fiances came to this country with only suitcases (inculding me).

 

if the fiance here ask me for Prenuptial Agreement, ok.

 

... to be fair, should I also write down in paper such as $50 per hour pay for physical care when he gets sick or old?

[Guest enight]

... I know most of Chinese would never forgive the lover who brought out Prenuptial Agreement...

 

don't know Russian's culture though, but..

 

I think human beings are same.

[Guest Se_Lang]

... I know most of Chinese would never forgive the lover who brought out Prenuptial Agreement...

her is what my MM said "she said right"

[Francine-gg]

right francine.  and whatever you do, do not get homeowner's insurance because it means you are not ready to own a house.

SF joe are you suggesting that our future wifes are like houses?

inanimate objects?

 

I guess your telling us you believe in MARRIAGE INSURANCE?

 

Ok girls from Russia and China with little or no assets take note.

 

It is a sad that some actually believe that their wifes should sign a contract excluding them from their husband's assets.

[Robert S.]

It is easy to take a black-and-white attitude about this, but what people need to remember is that having some real money, like from inheritance, changes the nature of someone's life. In my case I stand to inherit a piddling $40,000 from my mother someday if I outlive her. This was not enough money to even bother with a prenup. But if someone was going to inherit a significant amount of money there needs to be a plan for how to handle this. Do you ladies not think there has ever been a wife who, when her husband came into money, she decided she would rather have the money than to have him? She may have loved him just fine before but a large amount of money will change people's aspirations.

[carhil24]

Hello all,

When someone has a moment, can you show me how to use the quote boxes, so I can respond appropriately? Thanks! Now, on to the subject at hand. I honestly have to side with the ladies on this one, guys. A prenup is nothing but a piece of insurance. SF Joe, I understand that you are a lawyer and therefore believe that everything can be settled with a legal document, but we are not talking about an inanimate object here like a house or a car. We are talking about a sacred covenant between two people who wish to join together as one entity. Whether you like it or not, marriage is an institute created by God, and it is supposed to be a sacred, binding, life-long covenant between a man and a woman. But now of course, it is just like a lot of other things that we human beings have taken and reworked to fit into a lifestyle that is convenient for us. Obviously there are justifiable reasons for divorce, but nowadays people are getting divorced just because they cannot get along with one another or don't like something about one another. If you want to compare marriage to an inanimate object such as a house or a car, then think about what occurs when you buy a house or car. If you were to go out tomorrow and see a car that you really, really like, and decided to buy it, you would have to sign a myriad of forms and legally binding documents. After a couple of weeks, if you decided that you really didn't like the color, or that it just didn't suit your lifestyle, do you think you could just return to the dealer and give it back to them, and expect to get your money back? They would laugh you right out of the place! But we human beings believe that it is okay to do this with another person, does this make any sense at all? It used to be when you entered into a contract you were very careful to ensure that you knew exactly what you were getting into, because you were always aware of the phrase (please excuse me, but the Latin escapes me) "Let the buyer beware." But nowadays we have all just thrown personal responsibility out the window, and the first thing we do when we are unhappy, is hire a lawyer and start a lawsuit. Come to think of it, maybe that is why SF joe has the point of view that he does. (I apologize, I know that was a low blow!) So as soon as we don't get along with our wives, or we don't like who they are, no problem, hire a lawyer and sue them for divorce! Robert S, I read your post with interest, but I still have to disagree. I think the mistake your are making is found in the sentence in which you wrote, "She may have loved him just fine before but a large amount of money will change people's aspirations." Yes, having money or the lack of, does change a lot of people's aspirations, but it can never, and will never change true love. If a sum of money no matter how small or how large can change the love a wife has for her husband, or vice versus, than that love was not real to begin with. This is what the ladies who have responded to this thread are trying to get across to us guys. And enight has a point. What if your fiancee, before agreeing to marry you, presented you with her own prenuptial agreement? Maybe one that stated that if there would ever come a time that you did not meet up to her expectations in bed, that she could sue you for, let's say, lack of performance? (I know, it's a little crass, but I'm just trying to affect the guys in the same manner that I think a prenup affects the ladies). When a prenup is brought into the marriage equation, it automatically cultivates a sense of distrust and lack of commitment. Think of love as being like a four-legged chair, with one leg being love, one being respect, one being commitment, and one being trust. You could remove the leg of love, and although it might be a little wobbly, the chair could still be utilized. A marriage might be somewhat wobbly without love, but it still has a chance of succeeding, as long as the other three legs are in place. Remember, in the old days, partners were picked by the parents, and love was not a determining factor in the matter. And those marriages had a lot better average of success and longevity than those that occur today. If you were to remove the two legs of trust and commitment from that stool, it would make it very difficult to sit on, requiring at the least a very delicate balancing act. Unfortunately, this is exactly what a prenup does, removes the trust and commitment necessary for a sturdy foundation for a marriage, and from the very beginning, that marriage is at best a delicate balancing act. Robert S wrote that it is easy to take a black and white attitude about this subject. Maybe that is because it is really that simple. If you do not have enough trust and commitment in a person to feel comfortable about entering a sacred, lifelong covenant with him or her, with no strings attached, then by all means don't do so. It seems to me that it is as black and white and as simple as yes and no. And I would understand and support every woman who, when presented with a prenup, had the courage and foresight to say, "NO!"

[AZwolfman]

Prenups. . . here we go again with this topic. I guess a prenup would be ok if both parties are ok with it. But how do you know she would be ok with it until you bring up the subject. Then after you do bring up the subject and she feels that it means your love is not so committed to her and a successful marriage, you discover that you should not have brought up the subject. If you don't bring it up, you will never know what would have been her reaction, but you will be showing committment. Boy, this is confusing!

 

Love is a risk, marriage a gamble. . . if you love her, go ahead, take the risk and roll the dice! You can never win if you do not risk loss.

 

BTW, if you read the fine print, you will find that you (as petitioner [support affidavit]) are "financially responsible" for your wife until she has worked for 10 qualifying years in the U.S., even if she divorces you and remarries someone else.

[Dave G.]

BTW, if you read the fine print, you will find that you (as petitioner [support affidavit])  are "financially responsible" for your wife until she has worked for 10 qualifying years in the U.S., even if she divorces you and remarries someone else.  

Very interesting....I just read the fine print.

 

"The person completing this affidavit is the sponsor. A sponsor's obligation continues until the sponsored immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, can be credited with 40 qualifying quarters of work, departs the United States permanently, or dies. Divorce does not terminate the obligation. By signing this form, you, the sponsor, agree to support the intending immigrant and any spouse and/or children immigrating with him or her and to reimburse any government agency or private entity that provides these sponsored immigrants with Federal, State, or local means-tested public benefits."

 

As many have pointed out, no one knows that the law has ever been tested in court. Personally, as a layman, I have a hard time believing that the government would try to enforce the law if (s)he remarried. Logically, the new spouse would be responsible. However, the petitioner could still be responsible for minors that accompanied. I liken the situation to a failed marriage with children. Once the ex remarries, alimony ceases. However, child support continues.

 

Let's just hope the issue never comes up for any of us. But, as Don recently pointed out, the statistics are against some of us. Bummer.......http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/q/weep.gif

[keelec]

... to be fair, should I also write down in paper such as $50 per hour pay for physical care when he gets sick or old?

:0

Interesting discussion. Sorry about hitting a nerve. But, please try to keep the discussion on a professional level.

 

$50 / hr when I get old to stay with me?????

 

As someone mentioned earlier, hopefully by that time there will not be any need for the piece of paper.

 

But, the concern is not that a woman wants to be taken care of when the couple is together, and even after the man passes on. In general, she will be taken care of. The concern is that she would want to leave and still want the $50 / hr TO NOT DO A THING BUT BREAK ONE'S HEART.

 

Of course, everything is always a two way street. Marriages can break up because of either men or women, or both.

 

----- CK -----

[Patrick & Li]

I didnt ask for a Pre-nup, though it did cross my mind a time or 2 early on.

I think some people here are over-reacting to SJJoe's comments. He is a legal expert and so he sees it from the legal side of the issue.

Why does a Pre-nup bother you so much? If the marriage is a true loving marriage, it will never even mean anything. Luckily, I live in South Carolina, where the law says that whatever we accumulate together is rightfully 1/2 of hers and 1/2 of mine. Whatever i accumulated before i met her is mine only! My wife will enjoy the priviledge of living in a nice house, enjoy all of my assets that i accumulated long before i met her as long as we are married.

 

Just my 2 cents worth, Patrick

[Guest jimb]

I think maybe the spouse's objection to the prenuptial agreement may be because it is one sided. The person who has no money gives up something of value. What do they receive in return? Usually nothing. is this a fair agreement?

 

jimb

[mikem]

I think maybe the spouse's objection to the prenuptial agreement may be because it is one sided.  The person who has no money gives up something of value.  What do they receive in return?  Usually nothing.  is this a fair agreement?

 

jimb

I have to pipe in being divorced too 1 time. I thought the law was quite specific on divorce for an immigrant marriage. I believe it said no divorce allowed except for abuse..or am I wrong?...But I guess if it is intolerable situation you do what you need to do.. maybe it only covers the first 3 years of the marriage.. And if this is so it seems the American citizen/benifactor would have to initiate the action?? Clear me up on this I am toying with the PreNup thing the lady I am marrying is 23 years younger then me :-)..and from China

[Dave G.]

I think maybe the spouse's objection to the prenuptial agreement may be because it is one sided.  The person who has no money gives up something of value.  What do they receive in return?  Usually nothing.  is this a fair agreement?

 

jimb

Well...yes. It is fair. As Enight said, she came with only suitcases. God forbid, but if things failed for people in this circumstance, why should they get anything more? I believe the community property laws are wise. Get half of what you build together; keep what you had before the marriage. Alimony laws make sense too. Pay a percentage based on how many years married....one shouldn't be strapped for a lifetime if only married a few years. And child support? Yup....that makes sense too. Your flesh and blood....you're responsibilty regardless of the situation.

 

Wow...I totally forgot about this. I had dated a gal right after my divorce. I had known her over 25 years when we had hooked up again. She told me she had a large trust fund (in hindsight, I think it was a big fat lie). Regardless, I volunteered to sign a prenup with her to protect these funds (she lives in a non-community property State). She exploded! She said something like, "Prenups are like arriving to the marriage with bags already packed just waiting to leave." That made a lot of sense to me.

 

So, like has been said by me and many, learn your State's laws. Follow your heart. Do what you think is best for you.

 

In case you are wondering what the States are? Here ya go...

 

* Arizona

* California

* Idaho

* Louisiana

* Nevada

* New Mexico

* Texas

* Washington

* Wisconsin

[tonyontherock]

Well, I disagree with a lot of things SF Joe said. But I would hesitate about getting married without a prenup. True, most state law provides for equitable distribution of property accumulated during marriage. It is the spousal support that one has to worry about.

A prenup most oftern will not work for technical reasons as pointed out in the posts. However, it does help in negotiating a property settlement in the event of a split up even if the document's enforciblity is called into question. Besides, most of the wives are not as well versed as SF Joe or may not have an attorney when it comes to divorce ( Chinese women tend to do that a lot. "I don't want a dime of his money"). You may be able to pull a fast one even if the woman does not get independant legal advice at signing.

People change, unfortunately. Some American husbands say things like "go back home if you don't like it" or beat up the Chinese wife occasionally to emphasize the points in their argument, or take out the frustration in the past relationship on the new one. I have seen that in few situations. On the other hand the wife may have different expectations, esp. some one who before coming over was fairly sucessful and enjoyed parties, etc was thrown into a suburban life of cooking, cleaning and motherhood, PTA, etc. All these may create tension. When it comes to splitting up, protecting number one seems always the priority, from human nature and from what I read in the literature. A prenup is a good lever in the settlement negotiation.

Am I being slimy as SF Joe or just a professional hadicap we shared?

[Guest sanfranciscojoe]

right francine.  and whatever you do, do not get homeowner's insurance because it means you are not ready to own a house.

That's a cheap shot joe! Where do jerks like you come from?

jerks like me come from California.

I can live with the fact that you disagree with me. I must be correct.