Prenuptial Agreements?

[Guest sanfranciscojoe]

slimy, tony? is that really the word you want to use? my rule is that I never post anything that i would not say face to face. Please let me know if that is your rule as well.

[Francine-gg]

Well, I disagree with a lot of things SF Joe said.  But I would hesitate about getting married without a prenup.  True, most state law provides for equitable distribution of property accumulated during marriage.  It is the spousal support that one has to worry about. 

A prenup most oftern will not work for technical reasons as pointed out in the posts.  However, it does help in negotiating a property settlement in the event of a split up even if the document's enforciblity is called into question.  Besides, most of the wives are not as well versed as SF Joe or may not have an attorney when it comes to divorce ( Chinese women tend to do that a lot.  "I don't want a dime of his money").  You may be able to pull a fast one even if the woman does not get independant legal advice at signing.

People change, unfortunately.  Some American husbands say things like "go back home if you don't like it" or beat up the Chinese wife occasionally to emphasize the points in their argument, or take out the frustration in the past relationship on the new one.  I have seen that in  few situations.  On the other hand the wife may have different expectations, esp. some one who before coming over was fairly sucessful and enjoyed parties, etc was thrown into a suburban life of cooking, cleaning and motherhood, PTA, etc.  All these may create tension.  When it comes to splitting up, protecting number one seems always the priority, from human nature and from what I read in the literature.  A prenup is a good lever in the settlement negotiation.   

Am I being slimy as SF Joe or just a professional hadicap we shared?

I'd like to look at this from a different perspective if i could.

 

Say any of you guys met and fell in love with a girl who happens to come from a well off family and she has wealth, you both decide to get married but she tells you that you must sign a prenup agreement before she can marry you, because she needs to protect her inheritance just in case the marriage does not work out. She tells you don't feel bad this is just business and this will insure that you won't be able to pull a fast one and divorce her and be entitled to her money...

 

How would you feel????

 

I agree it is a personal decision between both parties, but deep deep down it poisons the relationship.

[Dave G.]

How would you feel????

I think a lot of this has to do with "mind sets" created through our gender socialization. If you read my post, when I heard about a former girlfriend's wealth, my knee-jerk reaction was to mention a prenup for HER protection. Who am I to get a penny from an [alledged] trust set up for her by her family? That was money earned by her father and gifted to her and her kids. For guys, I think we have a clearer sense of what that means...I'm willing to bet we'd sign it and not think twice about it.

 

Today's women have a much tougher role to play these days. Wife, mother, and often co-supporter of the family. Yet...I'm guessing here based on my observations of couples I know...the "wife" role still expects the husband to be the primary provider. The prenup flies in the face of this expectation.

 

So, in this world where everything has to be PC, I just violated that by mentioning differences between men and women. I hope this isn't viewed as sexist towards men or women. We are different and we are "trained" differently. If you disagree with that, then my thoughts will truely be taken as sexist remarks. They really aren't meant that way.

[tonyontherock]

Francine, I would say : " Honey, if you really love me, you would never even have thought of a pre-nup. I mean, would I ever want to marry you for money! I am insulted! If you really love me as you claim, appologize and take that back!"

But on the other hand, without a that kind of an agreement, if there is a divorce I would be able to extort a bit more money out of her and probably afford the sail boat I have been dreaming about. You know, the kind her dad has, that can sleep three people......

Who knows, even though I would love my wife with all my life, I might feel suffocated by her controlling attitude, her jealous fits that I want to spend more time with co-worker (male or female depending on my orientation)after work or simply feel "unhappy" and want to explore more possibilities. A prenup would certainly gets in the way, if I want to enjoy the same living standard as before divorce ( woops, did I mention that my boyfriend, woops again, I mean girlfriend, can not provide the same standard, even though he, I mean she, is very cute! )

Well, I was once young. Had I married a girl, I would had been able to finish law school years ealier, drive a Mercedes and sail down the Saint Lawrance river in my own boat, you know, the kind her dad has. Instead, I chose to follow my heart and got some one a visitor's visa, married the "beautiful country teacher" and planned on being happy forever. We worked in the kitchen of So-and-So Wok, the Butterfly Heaven or sorts like till life turned for the better, then better. Then, you know what, love, is just love. I gave up my dream about the boat, for now. Told the bank that I will not be paying off the mortgage at year end as I have to give the money away in property settlement and as a bribe to keep the other side from contesting custody.

If I get a chance to marry some one again and get the chance move to Canada? You bet I would protest vehemently about signing any prenup. I am not young any more and I do want my boat, together with a dock from my house, the kind with glass window from floor to ceiling and on the beach too, the kind the wife's father has. If I won't be able to get it through marriage. Well, it looks like the chance is slim. I certainly don't want any one to take it away due to marriage. I mean take it away from the money accumulated during the marriage even. I earned it! Yes, I don't mind paying $50 an hour for some one to take care of me in sickness. I know if I don't spend an equivalent amount on the wife, I would be in a nursing home anyway. The kind that the government pays for.

[Guest jimb]

One thing I've noticed about lawyers, they can talk a lot and not say much. My lawyer and dear friend of the family for over 75 years, sometimes spends an hour answering a question of mine, and I never do get the answer. (maybe it's there and i'm to dense to get it) I usually enjoy every minute of it though. It's always interesting to listen to him.

jimb

[frank1538]

One thing I've noticed about lawyers, they can talk a lot and not say much.  My lawyer and dear friend of the family for over 75 years, sometimes spends an hour answering a question of mine, and I never do get the answer. (maybe it's there and i'm to dense to get it)  I usually enjoy every minute of it though.  It's always interesting to listen to him.

jimb

This is getting dangerously close to a lawyer jokes thread.

 

I'm not sure this board could handle the volume.

[Guest jimb]

I thought it was sort of a compliment. My lawyer is the only person I could listen to for more than an hour without saying anything or falling asleep.

jimb

[tywy_99]

I think maybe the spouse's objection to the prenuptial agreement may be because it is one sided.  The person who has no money gives up something of value.  What do they receive in return?  Usually nothing.  is this a fair agreement?

 

jimb

I have to pipe in being divorced too 1 time. I thought the law was quite specific on divorce for an immigrant marriage. I believe it said no divorce allowed except for abuse..or am I wrong?...But I guess if it is intolerable situation you do what you need to do.. maybe it only covers the first 3 years of the marriage.. And if this is so it seems the American citizen/benifactor would have to initiate the action?? Clear me up on this I am toying with the PreNup thing the lady I am marrying is 23 years younger then me :-)..and from China

Did you hear they came out with a new Barbie doll called "Divorced Barbie"?

 

Yeah, it comes with all of Ken's stuff...........

[warpedbored]

Is that why Ken isn't anatomically correct?

[frank1538]

I thought it was sort of a compliment.  My lawyer is the only person I could listen to  for more than an hour without saying anything or falling asleep.

jimb

I did not intend to suggest otherwise. Just that talking about lawyers opens a crack in the door that might allow room for some of the 403,243,617 lawyer jokes out there.

[warpedbored]

Hmmm i know a few who want to go first ? lol

[tonyontherock]

I thought the law was quite specific on divorce for an immigrant marriage. I believe it said no divorce allowed except for abuse..or am I wrong?...But I guess if it is intolerable situation you do what you need to do.. maybe it only covers the first 3 years of the marriage.. And if this is so it seems the American citizen/benifactor would have to initiate the action?? Clear me up on this I am toying with the PreNup thing the lady I am marrying is 23 years younger then me :-)..and from China

Well, like I said before, I don't know much about immigration law but I think your information is wrong. Any one can get a divorce. Some states are no fault and in some states you need to prove grounds (abuse, adultery, refuse to have sex, abandonment, etc). What you are referring to actually is the self-petitioning process. If there is abuse by the American spouse, the foreign spouse can file the petition to remove the condition on the green card on her (or his) own with divorce due to abuse not a bar to getting the permanent green card. I only handled a few domestic violence cases which I suspect was immigration motivated ( with real bruises and bloody lips, etc, one with nasty hospital records, motivated in the sense that these women probably would never otherwise bring such thing to court due to cultural reasons).

I don't know before grant of the initial conditional green card whether a foreign spouse can file on his or her own under that provision. Joe, do you know?

Apart from immigration concerns any one can file for a divorce. Put it in simple words, I would get a pre-nup just in case. I would not completely trust everything to love even if she is from Flushing Queens ( the Nanny) given that age difference.

If I get a 17 year old girl friend, I would worry that she would spend all money on music CDs that I don't even like.

[Guest enight]

But, the concern is not that a woman wants to be taken care of when the couple is together, and even after the man passes on.  In general, she will be taken care of.  The concern is that she would want to leave and still want the $50 / hr TO NOT DO A THING BUT BREAK ONE'S HEART.

... if She is kind of 'bad' woman, she would be able to take off all your money anyway even you set up an ...Agreement

 

...if she is kind of 'good' woman, then you taught her the way to be selfish , realistic and materialistic.

 

[Guest enight]

The concern is that she would want to leave and still want the $50 / hr TO NOT DO A THING BUT BREAK ONE'S HEART.

so... indeed,

 

does a Prenuptial Agreement can insure your heart not to be broken? or

 

it can really protect your assets?

 

... let us know how's the result by the time she gets the greencard

[mikem]

I thought the law was quite specific on divorce for an immigrant marriage. I believe it said no divorce allowed except for abuse..or am I wrong?...But I guess if it is intolerable situation you do what you need to do.. maybe it only covers the first 3 years of the marriage.. And if this is so it seems the American citizen/benifactor would have to initiate the action?? Clear me up on this I am toying with the PreNup thing the lady I am marrying is 23 years younger then me :-)..and from China

Well, like I said before, I don't know much about immigration law but I think your information is wrong. Any one can get a divorce. Some states are no fault and in some states you need to prove grounds (abuse, adultery, refuse to have sex, abandonment, etc). What you are referring to actually is the self-petitioning process. If there is abuse by the American spouse, the foreign spouse can file the petition to remove the condition on the green card on her (or his) own with divorce due to abuse not a bar to getting the permanent green card. I only handled a few domestic violence cases which I suspect was immigration motivated ( with real bruises and bloody lips, etc, one with nasty hospital records, motivated in the sense that these women probably would never otherwise bring such thing to court due to cultural reasons).

I don't know before grant of the initial conditional green card whether a foreign spouse can file on his or her own under that provision. Joe, do you know?

Apart from immigration concerns any one can file for a divorce. Put it in simple words, I would get a pre-nup just in case. I would not completely trust everything to love even if she is from Flushing Queens ( the Nanny) given that age difference.

If I get a 17 year old girl friend, I would worry that she would spend all money on music CDs that I don't even like.

Got it. We have had an almost a 2 year relationship going and she has been divorced once also,, from a Tiwanese guy no children involved. I met her through business contacts while on a trip to China. I have had those contacts who speak english and mandarin who know her well speak to her throughly about the age diference and about the comitment.. she is by the way over 30 and likes the same kinda music I do also a country girl... My contacts who spoke to her tell me I am a lucky guy and the envy me,, this coming from Chinese guys..However it was the letters she sent me in Mandarin that I had to have translated by co-workers. I have never had anyone write or speak to me the way she does. Things like "I know there is a difference in our age language and we are so far apart...but love knows no distance". I have met most of the dads side of the family at banquets I have put on and all seems ligit.

If divorce is posssible for the alien fiance' I would think people would pay to marry and then get a divorce to become a citizen,,, I think the US Gov figured that out and has put some type of rule in place..so that immigrant marriages don't become a business.. If I can find the sight where I found this info I will post. Maybe you good folks can find the answer.

 

Oh by the way from my dealings with Chinese business and even my fiance' the Chinese do not do anything without a contract(I think they invented them)