IllinoisDave

Is this a joke? What planet are you from? Curious minds want to know. Instead of just posting a flippant personal attack why don't you search around for some examples of "China bashing" to try and back up your view and then we can have a discussion as to whether it's actually bashing or just people expressing criticisms and pointing out China's flaws as Rog suggests. Or would that be too much curiosity for your planet?

I'm gonna try this one more time and then I'm done explaining myself. Pointing out what you consider to be negative aspects of China in the context of a discussion about China does not make you miserable about your life. I'm incredibly happy with my life due in large part to the woman I met in China who,as long as she'll have me, I plan on spending the rest of that life with. Making the occasional point about the negatives associated with life in China or the US has no bearing on my relative happiness. OK? Anyone trying to gauge the level of someone else's happiness in life based on what they post here is making some pretty shallow assumptions IMHO. And pointing out FACTUAL negative aspects of China or the US from time to time does not mean you're incapable of finding the good sides of China or the US. Some people prefer to focus only on the positive aspects of wherever they are. Good for them. I prefer to focus on neither the good nor the bad, but the one that's relevant at the time, whether it's in my life or in a discussion on Candle. I think that being open to both allows me to learn more and become a more well-rounded person. That's just my personal outlook on life. I'm sorry if it's not rosy enough for you.

CONGRATS on your marriage. And what they said about the card.

This is really a travesty. Whether we see it on CCTV is hardly the point. The big weakness in China's government is and is likely to remain local government corruption. This is likely just another case of someone getting their palm greased so that a substandard school could be built on the cheap, resulting in the deaths of thousands of students. The Chinese government absolutely needs to deal effectively with the issue of local government corruption. This is the Chinese government's greatest issues IMO. Whether it's reported in the press is immaterial. It's results that count. By "we" I mean everyone, including the Chinese. And my point was that I think the Chinese people would be better served to have this kind of information so that some effort may be made to prevent something similar in the future. The more people aware of this kind of thing, the better IMHO. If you think they'd be better served being kept in the dark, that's your prerogative. It may be immaterial to you, being 7000 miles away and all. But I think it's VERY material to every Chinese citizen who sends their child to a school or even enters a building that may have been built under such shoddy conditions due to the corruption of contractors and officials. Rather than harboring constant, irrational hostility towards the media, some people prefer to be as informed as possible.

Just because someone posts a view,whether fact or opinion, that doesn't coincide with yours doesn't make it China bashing. Just because it's something that you don't particularly want to hear or believe doesn't make it China bashing. Some people here want to hear nothing but the positive aspects of China. And there are MANY positive aspects to China. I don't think anyone could spend the amount of time there that most of us have and not come away with wonderful memories and positive impressions of our SO's homeland. But that's not all there is to China. It does have it's warts like any other country. And if you think pointing out those warts from time to time to provide some perspective is bashing, then you're criticism threshold is WAY too low. Just so we're clear. I LOVE China, and not just because it's the place where the woman I love happens to be from. I love it because of the experiences I've had on my visits there, the people I've met, the sights I've seen and the food I've eaten. I don't have to prove my affection for China to ANYONE here, just as I don't have to prove my affection for this country. I've written far more positive things about China than things that someone may consider negative. And as there are plenty of positive aspects to China there are plenty of negatives ones as well. And until Don changes the policy or the rules, no one here is under any obligation to refrain from pointing them out, including me. I'm a realist. I prefer to deal in facts and reality rather than fiction and fantasy. That goes for everything; religion, politics,sports and China. Despite what some here have claimed, I don't think I know everything. But I'll say this, when I point out what I consider to be a fact you can damn well believe that I've made every effort to make sure that it is a fact. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong. And if I state an opinion, you can be sure it's earnest and made with every effort to be based in fact. You're equally as free to disagree with any opinion I offer. Some have complained they don't post anymore or post less because of what they consider to be "bashing." I'll bet there are many who do the same because of the wrath they've incurred by daring to point out the less-than-positive sides of China. Likewise, many claim to lose interest or become disenchanted with too much political talk from one side or the other. Well I'm stickin around. If I feel like something positive about China needs to be said, I will. I'll also feel free to add some perspective from the negative side if I think it's warranted. And if I think a certain politically-charged thread needs some balance from the left to offset the predominantly right-leaning membership, I'll do that too. I don't start political threads. I don't start China-bashing threads. But I intend to continue to add my perspective/opinion to any thread I feel I can add something to. One day I may decide that I"m tired of dealing with the China-can-do-no-wrong folks or the right wing noise machine. Or Don may decide for me. But that day ain't here yet.

1. CONGRATS! 2. Proceed directly to the "glass half empty/half full" thread.

CONGRATS!

IMHO From what I have encountered in my limited time here at CFL, is that nobody thinks China is perfect Unfortunately, some seem to be of the opinion that you should just think about it's imperfection, not talk about it. Hey Dave, go ahead, say something good about China; I dare you! Said plenty of good things about China and will continue to. Feel free to look them up. You're quite fortunate to have found someone that cares about you here Dave. Life here in China is just not for everyone. And while I've only been living and working here a short time, I've met several challenges that make me wonder just what the hell I was thinking. Still, I find that seeking the positive side of China helps me make it through from one day to the next. I do my best to walk past the restaurant businesses near my home that sweep their stinky garbage and waste into the street everyday. I think my gag reflexes are getting stronger though. As for the air, well, anyone that's been here knows that they have a problem. Thank goodness for windy days as it seems to make it a bit cleaner. Now, as for buying products like DVD players, TVs, toaster ovens, etc., one would expect that when you buy it, take it home and plug it in, that it will work as advertised. Truth is, things are just not as well-inspected here as those in the US. So, it may or may not work at all. Is it all rosey? Hell no. Not even close. It's well-known that China has issues. It's always been my contention that the people of China make up for the differences that we westerners have come to expect in day to day life. It ain't easy over here, but for sure, one can't make it in life focusing on things that will just not change. In the US, if you don't like the store, you just drive to another. Here in China, you're pretty much stuck with what's there in your neighborhood, so you either learn to deal with it, or leave. On this we are in complete agreement.

IMHO From what I have encountered in my limited time here at CFL, is that nobody thinks China is perfect Unfortunately, some seem to be of the opinion that you should just think about it's imperfection, not talk about it. Hey Dave, go ahead, say something good about China; I dare you! Said plenty of good things about China and will continue to. Feel free to look them up.

IMHO From what I have encountered in my limited time here at CFL, is that nobody thinks China is perfect Unfortunately, some seem to be of the opinion that you should just think about it's imperfection, not talk about it.

What is ACH? American Citizens Hour. It's a time set aside for USCs to speak with VOs at GUZ and ask general questions about their case or the process. Been so long since I had to deal with that, I've forgotten whether it's on Mondays or Fridays now. Someone will be along shortly to provide that info. You can find info in the consulate website: http://guangzhou.usembassy-china.org.cn/iv_faqs.htm#5 See.

Hmmm, never occurred to me that what was important about this was Sharon Stone and Richard Gere, but I'll give that some thought. Yep. It's Hollywood's fault alright.

What is ACH? American Citizens Hour. It's a time set aside for USCs to speak with VOs at GUZ and ask general questions about their case or the process. Been so long since I had to deal with that, I've forgotten whether it's on Mondays or Fridays now. Someone will be along shortly to provide that info.

Well, I guess a "Like it or lump it" policy is one way to run a forum.

Can you provide some examples of truths not handled and "red neck stupidity" so we're more aware of what you consider those to be? Who cares B) Nothing personal, but if folks don't like the flavor of CFL they can "eat" somewhere else. Alternatively they can post and add to evolution of the site. JMHO Almost seems like you're contradicting yourself Rob. If those with different perspectives don't like what they read here and move on without adding their views then it would be a little harder for the site to evolve IMHO. The reason I asked Liuling for some examples is because her (I'm assuming she's a her) definition of what "redneck" is may be very different from ours. If so, at worst we may learn which of our attitudes/comments is insulting/belittling to her from a Chinese woman's perspective. (again, assuming here) As a bonus,we may be able to educate her to what a real "redneck" is. I'd also be interested in knowing from her perspective what "truths" she's noticed that the membership can't handle. Both sides are free to disagree on what constitutes that "truth." And maybe both sides can express their views and learn a little more about the other. That would be a kind of evolution wouldn't it?

That is an unfortunate Catch-22. Hopefully the help Randy and Rob provided will help you get out of it. Best of luck to you and your fiancee.

Can you provide some examples of truths not handled and "red neck stupidity" so we're more aware of what you consider those to be?

Great idea Jim. Rog wouldn't dare cut the cheese thread, would he?

Ahhh...I get it now. Silly me, I've stumble into a fantasy world thread. One where everything's wonderful in China and all the people in every province,city,town and village are completely free to air what few complaints they may have in a flowery town square with balloons and cupcakes. With no fear of reprisal from local authorities who are happy to stand by selling lemonade and dumplings as the local populace congregates to sing Kumbaya and celebrate the lack of repression and pressure. And this little fantasy world has a liberals-only world press that takes it upon itself to make up,out of wholecloth, stories about repression and pressure that don't exist anywhere in the 22 Provinces, 5 autonomous regions, 2 special districts, and Taiwan. And in this fantasy world lives a Pied Piper who knows everything that goes on in all 3.7 million square miles of China and what all 1.3 billion people are thinking because,well, he lives there damnit and he has his finger on the pulse of it all. And should we let the fact that he's only "lived" there for the last month or two bother us when he says he knows all this? NO! Why? Because it's a fanasty silly. If this Pied Piper of China claims to have been to each province,city,town and village and spoken to all 1.3 billion people, who are we to question that. Do you tug on Superman's cape? Do you spit in the wind? Do you pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger? Do you even mess around with Jim? NO,NO,NO and NO I say? It's a nice little world this Pied Piper and his followers live in. And a nice place to VISIT. But, I prefer to LIVE in the real world. So I'll head back out to the real-world threads and see what they hold.

I asked my wife and she said that she does not remember the VO wearing a name tag of any kind.

Dave, I agree with ShaQua. In talking to the Chinese people, they are proud of their country, and would do anything to avoid presenting it in a bad light to the outside world. Certainly there are problems, but the odd/even request is not one of the problems. Anything the government does to improve China, the people are in full support. The complaints about the government are for the government officials who take bribes, and yes they complain about the poor construction in Sichuan, but we complain about similar problems with the US government every day too. The big difference is pride in their country. Maybe it is only me, and that is why I should move to China, but I see selfish people every day who believe the government owes them this or that. I see people filing lawsuits for things that any reasonable person would accept as the individuals own responsibility. It is not the case that america has no good people, there are many in america who are responsible, and who love at least what america used to be. The difference is that in China, people hold individuals responsible for their own behaviour (don't try to sue someone because your soup was too hot and you spilled it on yourself) and in general they are proud of their China .. of MY China. My wife often talks of what a good man Premier Wen is .. when was the last time you heard ANYONE say what a good man we have leading our country? I don't disagree with anything you've said cred. I have no doubt the Beijingers are for the most part very happy to accomodate the restrictions related to the Olympics. And I know they have intense pride in their country, as they should. But those things aren't what I was taking issue with Jesse over. He portrayed China as a blissful land, free of suppression and pressure, offering his contacts and experiences as proof. I merely pointed out the fact that just because he hasn't met people in his social or business circles who are suppressed or pressured doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere, because it certainly is. My point is that he's living in somewhat of a vacuum in China,information-wise. He chooses to be happy in that vacuum. Kudos to him. Just don't expect the rest of us to do the same.

I think it's great also. You would be quite surprised what you might find after you've tried walking in my shoes for a few months. As I mentioned previously, the news I get is directly from the people of this great country of China. There is truly no better source for information in the world. News obtained from any media source is tainted; that includes and especially applies to the US. Zhong guo, Ja jo I honestly hope you enjoy your blissful little chunk of China Jesse.

What's amazed me since moving and working in China, is the incredible lack of oppression. There is not even the slightest hint of an oppressed or pressured people. Much of your lack of seeing it can surely be attributed to an incredible lack of a free and open press. What I see is with my own eyes and my own ears. It's not been filtered through a press that is heavily slanted to present China in a bad light or good light. All one need do is to travel about the country of China to talk, live and experience them one-on-one. I'm fortunate to be living and working with the people of China now so I have a first-hand account of wha't really happening. I can assure you that I am not on the Chinese government payroll; and for those in the Chinese media that are, are simply doing their job to present China in a good light. The people of China a well-aware that their government controls the media. So, most of them are wise enough to get their real-news from other sources. Funny, that most Americans reduce themselves to getting their news from Nickelodian, Jerry Springer, or some equally responsible news organization. The point is that not only are you not getting it through a filter, you're not getting it at all, at least not all of it. You ARE fortunate to be living and working in a country as culturally diverse and fascinating as China. I envy you that. I really do. But with that fortune comes the limitations and reality of living in a communist country, including being ill-informed about much of what's happening there. Your eyes and ears are only so big and can only see and hear so much. In and around Beijing I'm sure things are fairly rosy for the majority of people. At least the ones who haven't been made homeless and shipped out of town. But believe it or not, however extensive your travels and interactions may be, the reality is that you're NOT getting the full picture of what's really going on in all of China. You're getting the rosy picture of what's going on in front of you. Try traveling to Sichuan Province and into the cities and villages where schools were destroyed by the quake. Ask the parents there whose protestations about the poor construction (that most probably led to their children's deaths) have been surpressed, sometimes violently, and concealed from the rest of China and the world if they feel the slightest hint of oppression or pressure. Or travel to Xinjiang where the government's used the convenient cover of the Games to label any group they dislike a terror organization bent on disrupting the Olympics, allowing for intense crackdowns. Ask the portion of the Uighur people who wouldn't know terrorism if it bit them on the nose but have been subjected to that crackdown if they see any hints of oppression or pressure. I think it's great that China has the Olympics. I honestly hope it goes well and they're allowed to show the better sides of their nature to the world. But we shouldn't pretend for a minute that the worse sides don't exist as well.

This is getting pretty serious now. You may want to PM donahso. Don't know that he's gone through the same situation as you, but he does have cats and his wife may not be all that fond of them. Either way, he may be able to offer some advice.

That isn't good news for us. My wife has an apartment in Shenzhen that she was hoping to sell eventually for a decent price. I think eventually is a good bet Dave...Is 39 years okay??? That's when the jig is up for Hong Kong and the 50 year deal China gave it... At that time will Hong Kong kind of be adsorbed in to China causing house prices in HK to tank from their atmospheric levels and prices in SZ to show healthy gains... More later...much much later... Thanks Rog. 39 years is just a weeeee bit far into our retirement. But, maybe our kids will ultimately benefit.