IllinoisDave

Cmon Bob. That's a HUGE over-simplification of the arguments being made here. Some of those making the argument that cheating went on can hardly be considered among the "Rah Rah USA!!" crowd. Some of us have already conceded that the Chinese women out-performed the US gymnasts head-to-head, at least in some cases. The point is that the rules are there for EVERYONE. Pointing out that there's evidence that one side or the other didn't follow all those rules is not sour grapes or "Everyone else sucks but the USA", it's just dealing with the reality of the situation. What? My humor is lost? Ok, it's a sport that has subjective measurements. IMHO any competition whose outcome is by something other than a timer or a tape measure will have bias. (In my non-expert opinion I saw a Russian woman robbed in the trampoline last night.) In the end Dave, we both know, as did the Russian lady, that we have to take it like Gentlemen or Ladies and that's that. If a real issue exists those are dealt with later and hopefully the next games will be better. I think that's been working. I agree Bob, the scoring is very subjective and open to each person and judge's own interpretation. That's why IMHO it's so important in a sport like gymnastics for everyone to at least start out on the same playing field so to speak. If there is an advantage,and again I don't know if there is, to being younger and physically smaller in the sport then that didn't happen here. That's all we're saying.

That's quite an endorsement. The question is did they gain an unfair advantage because of their size due to the fact that they may be 4 to 5 years younger than the competition. You or I don't know that for certain either way. Regardless, the rules were put in place by people who are familiar with the sport and should be followed by all. You can choose to ignore the evidence that's been put forth in many places if you want. Some of us are able to make an objective judgement based on that evidence, some are not.

That's quite an endorsement.

Cmon Bob. That's a HUGE over-simplification of the arguments being made here. Some of those making the argument that cheating went on can hardly be considered among the "Rah Rah USA!!" crowd. Some of us have already conceded that the Chinese women out-performed the US gymnasts head-to-head, at least in some cases. The point is that the rules are there for EVERYONE. Pointing out that there's evidence that one side or the other didn't follow all those rules is not sour grapes or "Everyone else sucks but the USA", it's just dealing with the reality of the situation.

Do you really think the IOC and FIG took a good long, hard look at this issue involving the host country,especially THIS host country, in the run-up to these Olympics? Do you really think they did any real digging? I don't. I think they found what they needed to find in order to spare China any embarrassment and for the IOC/FIG to be able to say they investigated and put it behind them.

I think a simple "Don't trust ANYONE with your valuables when travelling ANYWHERE" would suffice without impugning the reputation of the Yangs or questioning the judgement of the OP.

Interesting and largely overlooked perspective.

You're not just a "little" wrong about this, but rather you're completely and utterly mistaken! The China Womens gymnastics team did nothing to deserve with being compared with the likes of illegal drug users like Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds. The young ladies from China have NOT cheated, nor did they disobey any rules. They complied with every request and regulation issued by the International Olympic Committee. The ladies of China simply out performed their competitors and did it without the use of artificial enhancements like illegal drugs. The girls themselves didn't cheat and are great athletes. The Chinese officials who train/control them apparently did cheat however. There's quite a bit of evidence to show they flouted the rules and falsified passports so some of the girls could compete. If they were under the allowable age limit as if appears some were, did that give them a competetive advantage over the others who were within the limits? I think that's a question best answered by those more expert on gymnastics than us. But the rules are obviously in place for some reason. And as long as they ARE there, EVERYONE should be expected to comply with them. To compare the Chinese gymnasts themselves to Bonds and McGwire and their ilk is illogical. But to dismiss the issue by saying that they complied with every request and regulation issued by the IOC is a bit misleading. Someone apparently didn't comply with every regulation. And while that someone may have been the adults in charge, I doubt the athletes themselves are unaware of the age limits or their own ages. Did the Chinese girls out-perform the other gymnasts head-to-head on a purely athletic and/or artistic level? Absolutely, at least in some cases. So why not just throw out the age limits and let them all compete against each other woman to woman? From a mere observer's perspective that would be my suggestion. But that brings us back to why the rules are in place to begin with. I don't think the Chinese women's gymnasts themselves will suffer the harsh judgement of history as McGgwire, Bonds etal have. But I do believe the Chinese gymnastics program and those who control it will suffer that fate. And if the allegations are true, they should.

I think that's a hard question for us foreigners to answer, even if we are married/engaged to Chinese men/women. My first reaction would be "Of course not, he did his best and just couldn't continue. That's nothing to be ashamed of." But that comes from a completely practical,sympathetic American perspective of "It's not whether you win or lose..." I can't say whether Liu feels he has lost face or whether any of his countrymen or women feel that way. Didn't someone post an example just recently of a Chinese athlete who lost in some competition and got letters saying that their country had done so much for them, spent so much money on them etc and they had let it down? Does the average Chinese person think that he should have tried no matter what the cost? And since he didn't go until collapse he lost face? I dunno. Great question Dennis.

Wow. That sounds more like a Match.com questionnaire than the usual GUZ interview. CONGRATULATIONS

The good and the bad: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olym...us.baseball.ap/

Y'all who need to do the tithing thingie can just send it to me and I'll see that it's used for god's work... Better yet. Do the economy and the country a favor and spend that tithing on something tangible. Imagine if all those who give 10% or whatever of their salary to a church would pump some of it into the economy or even save it. Instant tax rebates.

CONGRATULATIONS!!

You're right Rog. Costas said last night that you couldn't go anywhere in China or watch anything on TV without seeing his face constantly. My wife confirmed how popular is there and what a huge dissapointment this is for China. I knew he was popular but had no idea just how so. What a shame. Can you imagine the electricity that would've created in The Bird's Nest with him running for a gold medal? A damn shame.

Hey Jim...how bout these results? http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/51-97/51-97838-P.jpg

8 GOLDS!!!

Some people really know how to keep things in perspective eh?

Maybe there were dates in the paperwork showing he was recently employed in Michigan and is now in Cali that they weren't sure about? It seems something in there confused them because part of the overcome they requested was a detailed record of residences etc.

I agree with you that it is likely. Just because many Americans are too hard on China, and misunderstand it, and mistrust it, and are uninformed about it, doesn't mean that any negative press about China is automatically wrong. Just as pride in the USA doesn't need to be taken to the point of blind redneck-patriotism beyond all reason, love for China need not become terminal Sinophilia. And on another subject mentioned by the OP what's wrong with holding up Michael Phelps? The olympics are being broadcast in this country to an American audience who (for the mostpart) are rooting for their own country. Here is an amazing young man who is breaking records left and right, seems indestructible, and really shines in his performance and dedication. Compared to the garbage we normally idolize in this country, he's a shining beacon. Do you really think 99% of the US audience is sick of him and would rather see interviews with the slovakian underwater basket weaving team? Ditto Jim and Jason.

DongDong is the MAN on the tramp.

We are kicking serious ASS in the Bronze column.

I caught that tonight. It was a hoot.

Thanks Randy. That's perfect for Dennis. Just the numbers without the details.