IllinoisDave

Redneck by marriage.

Maybe the MK is a more appropriate place for this than the TC. Thanks to Eunice for the inspiration. For our Chinese friends who may not be familiar with the music you sing this to: http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=7387 With apologies to the original songwriter. Come listen to a story 'bout a man named Rog A Cheesehead he was, and drove a green Dodge, Then one day he was burying an old suit, And up through the ground came a twisted root. Ginseng that is, Wisconsin gold, Hainan tea. Well the first thing ya know ole Rog is a billionaire, Kinfolk begged, Rog move away from there. Said Chinatucky is the place, bye bye So he loaded the Wuling and moved to Qionghai. China that is. Big walls. Dumplings. The Hainan Hillbilly.

Sorry to hear about the unfortunately self-imposed snag. Hopefully it's the biggest speed bump you encounter on the road to your life together.

12 minutes to go. GOOD LUCK!

But see Dave here we've got everybody in bed together and there is NO OVERSIGHT of anything because the country is run by CROOKS AND IDIOTS and now they're going to bail everybody out once again without fixing the underlying problems of course... But we shouldn't talk about this here so please disregard what I just said... Talk about what?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that this is wrong... They didn't chop the heads off, just slit their throats... B) The fact that you're thinking about it more is a little scary Rog.

That guy has to be one of the most sensible, realistic (or is it pragmatic? ) economists I've ever read. We couldve use a few of him here when our bubble was starting to grow. I'm no economic expert but that guy makes a lot of sense IMHO. I couldn't agree more Dave...whether you're a realist a pragmatist or a cubist... But let's NOT go back there... Yes, let's not. Maybe we should just use IST.

Our DMV (Illinois) accepts any of the NOA forms she receives from the gov't that have her name and new address on them as one of the forms of ID.

That guy has to be one of the most sensible, realistic (or is it pragmatic? ) economists I've ever read. We couldve use a few of him here when our bubble was starting to grow. I'm no economic expert but that guy makes a lot of sense IMHO.

It's a shame that one measure of the "success" of China's Olympics may hinge on which way or how hard the wind blows. As a Cub fan, I can relate to that.

Good, we agree. I count 3, so far... Dennis, according to the dictionaries, that is not name callings. Name calling is the use of foul language. Go checking. Dennis can answer for himself of course. But I believe he cited those as examples of personal attacks rather than name-calling.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Or is it an order? But I'll pass. Using your criteria we couldn't criticize any other government, no matter how tyrannical or threatening to others, as long as the vast majority of it's citizens thought it's despotism or threat to others was OK. Or no matter how informed or ill-informed that citizenry is about the actions of it's government. I'm not saying China is tyrannical or a threat to others. I'm saying that if we follow your suggestion/order and only use what the vast majority of a country's citizens consider to be a problem to criticize that government, then that leaves little to criticize some of them over. Actually, I was referring to internal government policies, not imperialistic tendencies or external nation building. But that's an interesting philosophy Dave. Let me get this straight. If a government has the support of the vast majority of it's citizens, and they don't have internal policies that many people in the USA agree with, the people of that country are deserving of criticism for not opposing the government, and the government is deserving of criticism for not implementing policies that those same people in the USA would want to be implemented. A government that doesn't generally act in ways that the majority of it's citizens believe it should would be tyrannical, wouldn't you agree Dave? I see your point. I may have chosen my words poorly. And maybe we could get into a big discussion of tyranny vs tyranny of the majority but none of that is really all that germaine to what I was trying to say. So I'll just try to more clearly state my position relevant to your previous post. I will not feel obligated to constrict my posting to the criteria you've suggested. I hope that simplifies it.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Or is it an order? But I'll pass. Using your criteria we couldn't criticize any other government, no matter how tyrannical or threatening to others, as long as the vast majority of it's citizens thought it's despotism or threat to others was OK. Or no matter how informed or ill-informed that citizenry is about the actions of it's government. I'm not saying China is tyrannical or a threat to others. I'm saying that if we follow your suggestion/order and only use what the vast majority of a country's citizens consider to be a problem to criticize that government, then that leaves little to criticize some of them over.

In it's own way, it probably has all been discussed before. But I for one never get tired of reading stories like this. Thanks for posting it. The spirit and humbleness of the Chinese people are just two of the endearing qualities that make them so admirable.

Maybe they already know who he is and that's why they're expediting their case. B) Hey I got extra points from laopo on this one... She thinks that the reason everything is going so fast must be the excellent job I did on the paperwork... Please don't anyone wake her up...

Welcome home.

Yes, Weiwei's sister has been asking her to come stay in Beijing for a few months and she could take an advanced English course but she's hesitant and I'd feel better if she stayed in Yingkou until the Olympics are over. Yeah, unless you're going for the Games themselves I'd say it would be better to wait til they're over. A lot of things will be easier to deal with then, IMHO.

Ah, compassion. Was it Dave who spoke of being a reality-based, pragmatic, realist? I, myself, am a reality-based cubist, but to each his own!. Obviously, the statements made here are so obviously false that the poster could have only posted this to magnify the point about the issue that causes the problem being discussed. I think he did a masterful job. We could all take a moment to reality test our ideas before posting. So many problems could be avoided! We can all see, I think , how this poster has skillfully packaged all the errors into one brief post as a lesson to us all. We can see that if one just took a moment to ask yourself if these statements have even the remotest possibility of being true (Anything one posts? Let's go find the personal attack in Toplaws thread "This is so good...") or if you are writing about CFL or yourself (CFL is bad because some people hold liberal or progressive views that differ from mine?), you probably would have realized that what you were about to post couldn't possibly bear any relationship to reality, and one might have refrained. If one had reality tested those two ideas, then they would have likely realized who they were talking about (projecting) when they mentioned members who think they know everything! If all of us were to do this before we post, we could dramatically increase the percentage of posts that were on topic and dramatically decrease the number of posts that were merely expressions of our own non-reality-based prejudices, about China, et al. I think this poster is a genius for showing us so much in such a brief post and I hope we all take the lesson he is offering. Well said. Much better than APNWRT, which is what I considered posting.

Steve, it's nice to see ya again my friend. I hope all is well with you and Ying. You are missed here. Don't be a stranger.

I agree, slander and baseless attacks on China have no place on Candle. And I think those things are very few and far between and certainly haven't gone on in the most recents discussion IMHO. Our definitions of those may differ. If you it happens often, maybe you can post some examples so we know what your defintion is and can discuss it. BTW, there are multiple definitions of realist. Not all have to do with painting and writing. So I'll continue to define my own outlook on life as I choose, OK.

Is this a joke? What planet are you from? Curious minds want to know. Instead of just posting a flippant personal attack why don't you search around for some examples of "China bashing" to try and back up your view and then we can have a discussion as to whether it's actually bashing or just people expressing criticisms and pointing out China's flaws as Rog suggests. Or would that be too much curiosity for your planet? Here we go again!!! I have left you alone to say whatever Leftsided veiw you want to say. Now you are PERSONALLY attacking me again. HEY DON, you don't see this!!! Why don't you go and get a real life instead of hiding behind your computer for 23 hours a day on Candle! NWRT

Dave, I'm all for any discussion you want to bring forth about China. This thread is probably not the best place to do it as it was izus who originally opened it. He took the time to write his thoughts and feelings. It's clear you and a few others disagree with him. Nothing wrong with that, not a thing. Invoking discussion is healthy, but it takes effort to keep things civil. I can relate completely with what izus has to say, as I can with what you say here. I honestly consider a reasonable discourse about China a good thing for all of us. From my perspective, there are wonderful things happening in China. That is in the face of all the challenges facing this country as it is experiencing growing pains. I've not seen anyone disagree that China has dirty streets and air, unsafe water to drink, government corruption, and so on. Most everyone has been here at least once and personally witnessed it. Bill (izus) is a good human being. He's a good husband to his wife. He loves and cares about her and her homeland. There are a lot of negative issues that one can bring forth about China; and if that is what you and others enjoy discussing, so be it. Please exercise restraint however when someone see an endless sea of threads presenting China in a negative light. No; I'm not talking about "China bashing." That phrase is much too harsh for what I see happening. What I mean a remarkable lack of something good to say about the country. I've seen several posts that discuss the cleaner air and streets now happening in Beijing. It's great to see. But for some reason, there are many that don't think it will last. Will it? I believe it will because I see the passion of the people who are responsible for making it this clean right now. First let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with what you said Jesse about Bill being a good human being and husband. And I know the same can be said of you. That's very apparent in both of your posts here, as it is with just about everyone at Candle. And I don't think it's any less true for those of us who occasionally point out the negative aspects of China or the US. As for this not being the place for the discussion? Bill opened the discussion. He didn't say in his OP "I'd like to say something about the way people discuss China here but I don't want any discussion about it." He made reference to the relative happiness of people and their lives based on what they say here, "maybe CANDLE is the outlet for them to complain about life and how miserable they are" was his exact quote. I take issue with that and I said so in what I don't consider to be an uncivil way. I'm glad we agree on whether what's said here is actually China bashing or not. The problem as I see it is that someone can say 20 positive things about China and not be noticed. But point out one negative fact and the hounds are unleashed. Talk about people being defensive? There's just an incredible misconception among the more rabid China defenders that if someone says one negative thing about China, they're bashers that have nothing but contempt for China. And that's simply not the case. I'm sorry Jesse but I just don't see an "endless sea" of threads that portray China in a negative light. What I see are people posting articles about what's happening in China that they think may interest others. Some deal with the efforts to clean Beijing up for the Olympics and some deal with corruption and bribery. As I know you're well aware being there now, both are realities of today's China. I don't think it's unfair for people to vigorously come to China's defense when they see something they consider to be negative. I do, however, think it's unfair for them to make judgements about the lives of the people making the posts they don't like.

Maybe they already know who he is and that's why they're expediting their case.

And then there are those who consider the way they present their views to be the only "serious" way to discuss China and all things Chinese.

Interesting article that touches on many of the things we've discussed here lately. Warning: It's looooong. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07...?printable=true