IllinoisDave

Rog Rog Rog...You should know by now that if someone doesn't actually SEE something with their own eyes in China it obviously doesn't exist. After all, in a country the geographical size of China with a population of 3.1 billion, how hard can it be to have seen every square inch and every single person? Sorry for the minor correction, Dave, but it's 1.3 billion. You're not dyslexic when it comes to numbers, are you. ?ksa uoy od yhw, oN

Nice list Jesse. I gotta get me one of those foot massage thingies sometime. BTW, since Christine's still asleep, I can't ask her what maidan is. What's maidan mean? From your post it looks to mean "Check please"?

Thank you Amanda. Say Ni hao to Shanghai for us. Are you from Shanghia? If not, ever been before?

Sorry Rog. Ya want I should make a list of what I like about Wisconsin? Double edged sword. The things you like best about China are some of the things that make it also suck. Very true Bill. I meant to make that point in my post and forgot. My sentiments are genuine and heartfelt but also based on a very limited amount of time there. As I"m sure you've experienced, whatever quaint novelty some of them possess no doubt wears off after living there for an extended period. But for now they're still pleasant memories.

Glad you liked it Jesse. It brought back lots of memories.

Sorry Rog. Ya want I should make a list of what I like about Wisconsin?

I'm truly honored Rog. My first pinned post.

Thanks for the well wishes and cautions. Dave, apart from your wife, what are the ten things you like most about China? As promised Jesse, I¡¯m back. Now I¡¯m not sure whether you ask for my list out of sincere curiosity or cynical skepticism. I suspect you don¡¯t believe I can come up with 10 things. Either way, I¡¯m happy to do it. You can find it here. http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33715 Rather than hijack this thread I thought it best to start a new one. And for the record? I don¡¯t consider pointing out or discussing the negative aspects of China to be China-bashing or China-hating any more than I would when having the same discussions about the US. Making room for both doesn¡¯t mean sacrificing your feelings for either.

9. The traffic, human and vehicular. While frustrating and frightening, these two are also a source of endless entertainment for me. Maybe because I spent so much of my time in big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen. Just watching the people drive, especially cab drivers, is scary and amusing at the same time. And using horns not in angry reaction to something someone else has done or to say “ Beep beep! Get the hell outta my way!” But mostly to just say: “Beep beep, here I am, just lettin ya know. Beep beep, still here. Beep beep, coming up behind ya now. Beep beep, right beside ya. Beep beep, passing ya now. Beep beep, here I go.” And the way vehicles of all shapes and sizes combine with masses of pedestrians to form a kind of moving, amoebic-like form that should, by all rights, lead to complete gridlock and mayhem. But somehow through some kind of telepathic, instinctive form of communication, it all works and nearly everyone gets out alive. And the not forming of lines or waiting your turn? Utterly annoying yet amusing at the same time. I found myself getting smoke-out-of-the-ears pissed one second and laughing out loud the next just watching this phenomenon. Same with the every-man-for-himself rush into elevators, trains and subway cars before those inside can exit. I just had to laugh most of the time watching it happen. I usually ended up just going with the flow. Which pretty much sums up the Chinese people’s attitude towards these kinds of things. They have an incredible capacity to take stuff in stride. Just push your way to the front with regard for neither woman nor child as the woman and child does the same. And if you miss that elevator, train or subway? No problem. Just wait for the next one, no hard feelings. Ya just gotta admire this stuff when you really stop and think about it. At least I do. 10. Shanghai. Last but not least. Most of the qualities I listed above can be applied to Shanghai, along with many others. My first introduction to China was Shanghai as my wife is a native Shanghainese. So I’m sure that colors my perspective a little and my travel experience is fairly limited so keep that in mind. I’m a small-town guy who definitely is not crazy about city life. I lived in Chicago proper for five years and that was enough. But Shanghai is different somehow. It has a certain vibrancy to it, a buzz, a feel that I’ve never gotten in any other place I’ve been to. I’ve said before that it’s like you can feel the pulse of the city as you walk around it. I know Don has a different take on it but I like the smell. The smells of a city, good and not so good, mix with the aroma of the food and just get into your brain. The alternating between pungent and pleasant aromas as you walk around the streets of the city just adds to the experience for me. Despite the ever-present pollution and issues with sanitation and water, I could definitely see myself living in Shanghai one day. Keep in mind this list is based just on my extremely limited experience in China. I’ve only seen a fraction of a fraction of what this huge country has to offer. I look forward to going back and finding many more things to add to the list.

I was asked in another thread to list 10 things I like about China. I thought it would be better to separate it from that thread. I’m sure all of us could come up with more than just 10. But I was asked for 10 so that’s what I got. Feel free to disagree or add to my list. Or not. Dedicated to my friend Jesse. Whose unabashed support and admiration for all things China is why ya can’t help but love him. Here they are, in no particular order: 1. The food. No explanation needed. 2. The women. IMHO most beautiful in the world. 3. The fealty, respect and reverence shown to family elders. This is one of the things I admire most about Chinese culture. The idea that succeeding generations actually feel a duty to look after the preceding ones, seeing the sacrifice that may come with it as an honor instead of a burden is very humbling for us in this country. 4. The hospitality of the Chinese people to strangers. Sure some have experienced suspicion and/or open hostility or the curious stares that Westerners can get and that some consider rude. But IMHO those things are very rare and I’m sure sometimes well-deserved. But on the whole, from my own experiences and from those of most of the members here, the Chinese seem to go out of their way to make visitors feel welcome in their country and in their homes. 5. The notion of “swallowing the bitterness.” I think we in this country and some in others have a tendency to wallow in self-pity when bad things happen to us. The Chinese see the futility in this and are able to pick themselves up, realize that they can’t undo what’s been done and make a conscious decision to go on with their lives. Centuries of oppression and hardship, some created from within but much from the outside, has no doubt contributed to the necessity of this attribute. Do we sometimes wish they would let a little bitterness rise to the surface and demand better for themselves? Sure. But that’s a probably a little arrogant and a topic better left for another thread. 6. Their incredibly unique national and cultural treasures. Included, but not limited to, The Great Wall, The Forbidden City, the Terra Cotta Warriors, Tianenmen Square, The Summer Palace, Ming Tombs, Yangtze River, LiJiang and of course the Pandas, to name just a few. I could’ve cheated and listed each one separately because each one definitely deserves it’s own amount of praise. But I’ll leave them under this one umbrella so I can have more things in my list. 7. Their 5000+ years of history. The fact that the people and the culture have lasted that long while outlasting so many others is nearly as incomprehensible as it is impressive. Five thousand years! I mean when you stop to think that our country, as great and developed as it is, is a mere babe at 232, you can’t help but be envious of and have great admiration for a culture that’s been around that long. And it’s not like they’ve just been twiddling their thumbs as the time’s passed either. I wouldn’t even try to list all the ways that China has influenced the rest of the world over the centuries or the impact they have on the world today. But how about this for starters; paper, printing/movable type, gunpowder/fireworks, the compass, noodles. All these things probably would’ve been invented by someone eventually. But the fact is China beat everyone to it by thousands of years. 8. The differentness of China. One of the things I’ve always found most profound and most cool about China is how so many things are just different than the US. Maybe chalk it up to having led a comparatively sheltered life and not ever having been outside the US before going to China. But I was constantly amused/entertained/fascinated by almost everything… everywhere we went. Just the Chinese characters on the buildings, signs, walls, vehicles, food containers etc were a source of endless fascination for me. Not because I could or couldn’t read it, but just because it’s so different from what I’m used to. Food is an obvious one. The fresh fruits and vegetables and seafood especially. Where I’m from fresh fruits and vegetables are seasonal or trucked in from Florida or California and don’t seem nearly as abundant or fresh as you find in China. Or maybe it’s just psychological? Who knows? It just seems different when you’re there. And fresh seafood? Well let’s just say Lake Michigan isn’t a huge source of that. And eating chicken cold as an entree instead of a leftover was a new experience. Chicken/duck heads served at the table. Chicken feet as common as French fries. The fact that EVERY part of the animal is consumed. Corn in a cup at Mickey D’s. Not all of these are my cup o’ tea, but they were all something I’d never seen. Those teeny little stalls selling everything imaginable lined up one after another, especially in Shanghai, were a source of amusement for me whenever I saw them. And the fact that they repeat themselves every few blocks? Priceless. Talk about the antithesis of WalMart. I could go on and on (already have ) about the differentness but these are some that really stick out for me. As it’s getting pretty long I’ll break this up into two posts ‘cause that’s what Don does so it must be a good thing. B)

Thanks for the well wishes and cautions. Dave, apart from your wife, what are the ten things you like most about China? I'll have to get back to you on that Jesse. I'm headin home from work now. It's my weekend!!

DON'T EAT THE EGGS... I had three eggs for breakfast this morning. Man, they were good! All kidding aside Jesse. Would you feed them to a young child? How about milk products? I did feed them to my child. She liked them too. Any answer to that would seem inadequate. I think it would be better said that any answer that fails to agree with the shock and awe that some of you are attempting to instill would be inadequate. Listen, the people of China are experiencing a growth never before seen in history. With that incredible growth, many things are coming to light, like the lack of sanitation, safe food, and medicine. The US has an excellent system in place to regulate and quality check it's foods and drugs. China is changing rapidly, and with it come many of these anomalies that affect it's people. I have every reason to believe that the people of the US will confront their problems, and hopefully in some cases resolve them. China is attempting to do the same, but it will take time. Regarding the stories hitting the world press today about melamine showing up in eggs, the truth is that it would take eating 144 tainted eggs in a single sitting to become even slightly ill. Burl Ive's sang a song several years ago about his son wanting to eat a bushel of eggs. He told his son that eating a bushel of eggs would kill him. While China is growing and changing, the people are dealing with issues as they arise. I'm not sure anything China ever does will please some of you, because it never seems that it will be either quick enough, or the right way to do it. "Shock and awe" that WE'RE attempting to instill? Upwards of 40,000 infants brought in for medical care, with almost 12,900 hospitalizations, and at least three deaths. Seems pretty shocking and awe-inspiring to me Jesse. We've all heard the mantra about China's incredible growth yada yada yada before and we all get it. We get that their sanitation procedures have a long way to go before they match ours. And ours are far from perfect. But at some point people are going to have to stop using the "growth" argument to justify tainted products in and from China. And I really do believe the Chinese gov't is starting to realize this and do something about it. But they're obviously not there just yet. And I don't know where you get the 144 number from. The Chinese Health Ministry maybe? Even if it's accurate can you be sure the effects on kid's bodies is really that negligible? Do you really want to take that chance. Listen Jesse, I realize that not eating milk products or chicken products in China forever is impractical. But it just seems that the prudent thing to do would be to at least cut back until you can be reasonably sure that stuff is out of the system. That's all I'm saying. I honestly wish you and your family good health. Despite your laudable rosy outlook, it's gotta be a little daunting being on the front lines of this whole tainted food mess. Please stay safe.

No. Only people who tend to use words like "The ONLY way I see it getting fixed..." People who use phrases like that and who see ANY attempt to better the lives of the have-nots of the world as socialism and label those who dare to aspire to it as socialists are the narrow-minded IMHO. I can't find it right now but I read an article earlier today that quoted someone as saying essentially "Most of the people throwing around these words wouldn't know true Socialism if it walked up and bit them in their means of production." Rings pretty true IMO.

DON'T EAT THE EGGS... I had three eggs for breakfast this morning. Man, they were good! All kidding aside Jesse. Would you feed them to a young child? How about milk products? I did feed them to my child. She liked them too. Any answer to that would seem inadequate.

You're joking right... Well no actually, I'm not joking. Are you? Roger = Everyone should have a piece of the pie, and it's governments job to make sure they get one. FOUL...FOUL...Putting words in my mouth... Okay, my bad. I am truly curious though Roger. You've always been quite bothered by the economic growth and building boom in China. I too am bothered when I see the poor and hungry. People have wondered how to fix this and make it go away for generations. How would you suggest it be resolved? The only way I can see it getting fixed in any country is either by the rich giving willingly from their wealth, or having it taken away against their will. That's where your narrow view of the world betrays you Jesse. There's another way. That's for some of that wealth to make it into the hands of the poor and middle class before it even makes it into the greedy hands of the rich through higher wages and less taxes on the former and a couple of million less in salary and golden parachutes for the latter. If they aren't getting it in the first place, they won't have to give it away or have it taken.

DON'T EAT THE EGGS... I had three eggs for breakfast this morning. Man, they were good! All kidding aside Jesse. Would you feed them to a young child? How about milk products?

Lots of irony in this.

Roger, I know you have a burden for the poor of the world, and it seems that you think they are victims. There are indeed poor in every country in the world. So, what is the solution? Would you suggest that the government create programs for them so that they can have money, food, and an education? If so, where does that money come from? Taxes perhaps? I have no idea where you came up with that Jesse... I can't solve China's problems. I only hope China's leaders can find the compassion and common sense to take care of all their people... Roger, in a perfect world, there would be no poor. A government doesn't invent money, but gets it from the people who work and pay taxes. Any program to rescue people from hardship costs money. Just how do you finance such an effort? Some see other people's hardship and say "What can we do to help them." Some see it and say "Why even try?"

Rog Rog Rog...You should know by now that if someone doesn't actually SEE something with their own eyes in China it obviously doesn't exist. After all, in a country the geographical size of China with a population of 1.3 billion, how hard can it be to have seen every square inch and every single person?

Good luck Jen!

Rob, tell Jin I would really enjoy reading some of these stories. I drove truck long haul for 10 years myself. I saw things during those years that amazed me. Carl! We share a bond there, I worked long haul for 4 years in the 90's. I was a Solo operator running temp controlled freight for Marten Transport out of Wisconsin. 3 years ago a friend who owned a racing team asked me if I would be interested in transporting the equipment and cars to various tracks, he had bought one of those NASCAR rigs, Volvo Tractor with 53' spread axle trailer. I was amazed at not loosing the feel for operating those monsters after 7 years off the road. He sold the team last year, it was fun while it lasted. Was that a NASCAR team Dan?

Sorry you've been subjected to this needless, painful ordeal and delay. You'll get through it and be stronger for it. But that doesn't mean it don't suck. Best of luck to both of you on the CR-1.

CONGRATULATIONS!!

As usual, I vote with Carl.

Gee thanks Dennis.