Significant Differences of Chinese/Western Marriages

[Cerberus]

I think it is important to add something here that DavidZ always says. I paraphrase - love ain't words; it's action. Love is doing.

 

Example. My wife drives me to work and picks me up everyday. She has shorter hours so it works out quite well. When I get out of the car, I hand her my coffee cup to hold and give her a quick kiss on her forehead. Then I exit, get my laptop and cup, make sure no one is behind her and then let her know it is OK to pull out. A couple of weeks ago I was really preoccupied about something and skipped the kiss. I realized it as soon as I had closed the door. DAMN!!! When she picked me up later that day, I apologized and she said it didn't matter. Do you believe that?

 

Think about my little story. Do you see any love being exchanged?

 

Don,

 

Yes! I see it! Don't you?

 

Both are "stroking" each other in a different way!

 

1 ) She cares and is responsible for your getting to work. She understands the kiss and handing her the coffee cup. This is her "assumed responsibility" regard to her husband, and he way of love given to you. She doesn;'t have to do this if she didn't want to.

 

2 ) You are careful of her and wave her out when it is safe. Do you think that she doesn't see this and understand the care and love that you have, to hold her in such high regard? This reinforces in her mind that you care. This keeps her love alive and makes her value you even more.

 

3 ) You forgot one day. One day of absentmindedness, is quickly forgiven! Isn't this love and understanding to you and your position as a man and the breadwinner, that might have other things on his mind? If she didn't love you or disliked you, you wouldn't have pulled this trick off, without a nice sized catfight!

 

Remember what I said about older couple's love. Now you are "comfortable" and she loves being held and cared for by a "comfortable" man. Otherwise, she could pack her bags and depart.

 

I see that you have over 5 years under your belt also! Need I say more?

 

Dave

[Smitty]

Cerberus, this continues to be an excellent thread!

 

I must also mention A Mafan, again, and his comments about what a Chinese woman expects from her husband. However what lead me to register here was to learn more about how he realized how to deal with the issues he was having with his wife, and the thought process that he used to come up with that.

[Craig and Mingjun]

Dave, thanks again for this topic. So many things make sense now, and I feel damn lucky. I work for a college, and we have a number of Chinese professors and a number of Chinese students come to our institution every year. Since I had never been to China, I asked for advice about what I should take, what books to read, and other information. This is where the luck comes in, I managed to take some very appropriate gifts for the family just by accident. When we first met face to face, there was an instant connection (for both of us based on our conversations). I did not get grilled by the family, but they got first hand information from a better source: Mingjun's best friend, who happens to speak English fairly well. Now that I reflect, I was being gently probed from the minute I arrived.

 

So, what we have here is an arranged marriage, with my Chinese woman as the arranger Now I am not complaining, I am very happy with the arrangement. The friend helped arrange the engagement, and assisted in teaching me how to properly request the hand of Mingjun from her parents, with appropriate dowry and order of events. Like I said, I was damn lucky.

 

Both of my trips ended up with Mingjun taking me in hand, and we pretty much spent the entire 47 days of my two trips living together. There may have been a total of 6 hours the entire time in country we were not together. On the first trip she took a couple of hours to go shopping without me to get the best prices on gifts for my family. On the second trip she to a couple hours to get all dolled up for the wedding ceremony.

 

And gifts. My suitcases ended up crammed full both directions. Her friends and family really are into that tradition I always try to make sure I take thoughtful, practical, and unique gifts when I visit.

 

As Dave is so fond of pointing out, your mileage may very. I am just thankful Dave has shared his insights, and I am now able to see the meaning behind some of my experiences.

Craig

 

Thanks for you enlightening story.

 

Remember what I said regard to being with you the entire time? Now you understand perfectly why I said this and you were the acid test to prove my conclusions.

 

I sort of similar to your circumstances. When I first began talking with Yin I was a Pre-med student (Pharmacy) and was working on a minor in Chemistry. I had numerous Chinese fellow students and Chinese professors. I went and asked all of them recommendations. From Chinese students I got a lot of so-so answers, titters/giggles and embarrassed looks from the girls, younger men would give evasive embarassed answers. Only one professor gave me some good advice.

 

In short, I ended up spending countless hours on the Internet, the libraries reading and researching in my spare time. I picked up volumes of information that by the time I reached China, I hit the ground running and Yin completed my tutelage. BTW, I'm still learning today! Hence, my statements that I don't and won't ever profess that I have every answer.

 

There is another entity that helped me.....That was every member in CFL, their postings and thoughts. I read every damn entry from all members and learned an incredible amount from them. Their ideas, failures and successes really cemented the information into my mind! I had begun reading CFL back in Feb or March of 2004, before joining. http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...ic=6373&hl= I damn near knew every step that I needed to take, from my reading of thir postings. Albeit, there would be a few failures along the way, which could easily be alleviated by CFL members.

 

Mingjun's friend is a part of the Chinese social network I was speaking of in my posting. When Chinese friends bond...they bond for life, barring a catastrophic issue, betrayal, etc. They will fight and spat sometimes. However, they always come back together in the end! May I also add that if you ever fight with Mingjun you will be fighting her friend too! I should state that anything you say or do with your wife will immediately be sent via the proverbial "bamboo telegraph!" Plenty of sisterly advice will be rendered too! Been there, done that and have the T-shirt to prove it myself!

 

Two Chinese women against one Western man? Well, you figure up the odds.

 

It sounds like you are off to a roaring start. That is why I encouraged members to use my posting to even improve their happiness and relationship. Please understand this is on-going with my own family 5 years later. That is the hard problem; keeping up what you have today. My wife dislikes a hot fire for a love and marriage. She prefers many slow burning embers. As she has stated the fire burns longer then!

 

Dave

Well, once again, I am damn lucky. Her friend Rong is very outgoing, and likes me very much. So I really don't see it as being against me. I am pretty darn flexible As a matter of fact, I apparently made a great impression on all her family and friends. Apparently, I am one of the first subjects they bring up. They want to know how I am doing and when I will be able to come back for a visit again. There have been a couple of incidents during which I managed to stay very calm and collected (her purse being stolen from her brother's house with my passport in it is a shining example). I tend to like slow burning embers myself, so I see a warm future ahead!

Edited March 4, 2009 by Craig and Mingjun (see edit history)

[Cerberus]

I apologize all,

 

This week has been more than a bit hectic. Seems that the entire week so far has been one long Monday-type of day. Ever have one of those days, when things start out bad, you attempt to fix, the problem and it gets worse and worse, no matter how hard you to re repair the damage? For mew this was one of those weeks.

 

Anyway, now that I¡¯m done venting lets us get back to where I left off.

 

 

 

Sex and Love & Roles of the Genders in a Society.

 

 

To the average Westerner, this is seldom a problem. Our particular societies whatever they, are a far more liberal than in the Far East.

 

Regard to the Far East, depending on the variables, changes will occur among the different cultures. I¡¯m speaking of China as compared to Thailand, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Each particular culture is either more or less liberal.

 

However, in regard to China at one time it was fairly controlled for the most part. Unless you have the social status to do what ever you wanted to. (e.g. emperors and their concubines). Obviously; not a great option for the average Chinese woman and/or man. Therefore, societal ¡°expected¡± mores, standards and behaviors became fairly deeply entrenched. The time I speaking of began in the 1940s and proceeded until approximately the 1990s. This is where most of the wives will fall within. Again, please notice that I¡¯m avoiding the Chinese men.

 

This is approximately three generations, give or take, of societal imprinted standards beginning passed from generation to generation until you are where we are today.

 

By now even the most not savvy person that is married to a Chinese woman, has detected that their average loving relationship, can be compared to a Western relationship, but has many differences. The love is the same, the tactile responses are the same, etc, etc. However, there are very significant differences in certain ideas, assumptions and the way that love is expressed.

 

This pretty much sets the stage for what I will be discussing.

 

A while back, I offered to CFL members a Sex Survey for their use. Maybe 15 to 20 were sent out. This survey is extremely comprehensive and is approximately 20 years old no, but is still fairly accurate. The survey¡¯s information will begin to become obsolete once the current generation (X and XY) reaches their age of sexual realization. By this time new standards will be established. I should also mention at this point that the longer the individual Chinese is removed from China, the less impact the survey will have. This is due to the individual, example your wife; having a new relationship in the West, Western husband, discarding of old Chinese values, and new learned behavior overlaying the Chinese imprinted behaviors that she was raised with.

 

The reader should go to the hyperlink to and read through it.

 

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/china.html. Once you have read it, you will understand many things about how the imprinted behaviors affect the individual. If you read between the lines you will also detect how and why Chinese society and its leaders make the decisions that they do.

 

Please remember the Banning of Pornography thread in CFL, every one was carrying on about and how it restricted, it restricted free speech, was controlling, yadda, yadda! I can't find the link now. However, read the report above and understand the viewpoint and standards of the atypical Chinese leader. Then you will see the answer very clearly.

 

Gentlemen, if you don¡¯t read this report; I can guarantee you some hard times ahead, never fully understanding your wife. BTW, my wife matches this report very closely when we first met. I should mention that she has been in the US for almost 4 years and as I stated previously the report has less impact, with the passage of time.

 

I will take a few specific excerpts from the report and elaborate on them.

 

 

 

¡°¡­In 1996, Suiming Pan, head of the Institute for Research in Sexuality and Gender at the Renmin University of China in Beijing, analyzed 11 social surveys on sexuality in Chinese cities between 1986 and 1995 and reinterviewed 103 men and 73 women. The ten factors list below, which Pan (1996) identified as affecting sexological research and studies in China, also reveal some important insights into the general concepts of love and sexuality that prevail in the Chinese culture.

 

1. For most people, the Chinese sexual vocabulary is either cryptic or considered dirty and abusive.
   
2. The more familiar with each other people are, the more difficult it is to talk about sex.
   
3. There is often a sexual undertone between heterosexual interviewers and interviewees.
   
4. Many tragic or socially illegitimate sexual matters would rather be forgotten than discussed with the interviewees.
   
5. Female interviewers are often considered ¡°bad women.¡±
   
6. Pornography, sex workers, and non-marital sex are illegal in the minds of Chinese people.
   
7. Ordinary people do not understand why researchers study sexuality.
   
8. Most ordinary people are unable to evaluate and express their own sexual feelings, or even their behavior.
   
9. Most females feel like vomiting when questioned about sexual matters.
   

Ordinary people think that if you ask a question about a kind of sexual behavior or relationship, then it means that you really like it yourself.¡±

 

Readers, items 1, 2,7, 8 and 9, remember the age of the report. However, look at the reinterviews done by Pan in 1996! This data is only 13 years old! Don¡¯t our own wives, and fianc¨¦es fall dead right into the middle of this mentality and people that were surveyed?

 

 

 

¡°¡­A surprising 91 percent of the 8,000 married couples interviewed by Dalin Liu (1992) in cities and rural areas expressed satisfaction with their spouse. However, when Dalin looked deeper, he found that the average Chinese couple has intercourse four to seven times a month, with peasants invariably reporting 25 percent more sex than city couples. However, 34.1 percent of the rural couples and 17.2 percent of city couples admit to less than one minute of foreplay or none at all. Consequently, 44.7 percent of urban wives and 37 percent of rural wives experience pain during intercourse. Only 16.8 percent of rural couples kiss or embrace apart from lovemaking. (See also Section 14D for data on marital sex and satisfaction among married couples in the 1992 nationwide survey.)

 

Marital dissatisfaction is very common in China today. Some estimate that as many as 60 percent of the Chinese are unhappy with their marriages. A survey of 3,000 young people in Wuhan, the capital of Hubei Province, showed that only 20 percent of respondents were satisfied with their marriage. In a survey of 600 couples, all residents of big cities, 70 percent said they were unhappy with their sex lives. A random survey of married couples in Shanghai found that 45 percent were unhappy with their sexual relationships. A survey of 6,000 divorce cases in five large cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou (Canton), Wuhan, and Xi¡¯an, by ten newspapers showed that 72 percent of divorces are caused by disharmony of sexual life¡­¡±

 

 

Readers please read the second underlined passage. This is very, very and goes on today in China. Divorce has become an option and the past Chinese social stigmatization of divorce is rapidly. Using an analogy, not at all unlike a child released into a candy store.

 

Chinese women that are unhappy are moving onto to ¡°greener pastures.¡± I know that my own wife fell into this. There were incompatibility issues that were, the prime cause. However, you can damn well bet you last paycheck that sex was in the middle of it also! Why shouldn¡¯t a woman have a good marriage and a healthy sexual relationship with her husband? I fully anticipate the divorce rate to rise even more to breath-taking levels in about 5 years, which will stagger the imagination.

 

¡°¡­Increasingly, among urban Chinese and even among government officials who once actively opposed divorce, divorce is being viewed as an acceptable alternative to an unhappy marriage. Many officials even recognize a positive side to divorce. When both parties agree, a divorce can be granted in three days; not long ago, the wait was years. Important as the government¡¯s attitudinal shift is, a larger factor is the growing expectations women bring to marriage today, and their growing demands in an era of expanding opportunity. In the past, women were happy to settle for a stable income, a home, and children. To these expectations, women are now adding romance, sex, and affection. While women increasingly enjoy more independence and choices in career, place to live, husband, lover, they are also more subject to unemployment. Meanwhile, the shift has also brought a resurgence of traditional male values, including the right to have an affair.¡±

 

 

 

This excerpt doesn¡¯t even need me to comment on it. If you haven¡¯t seen this personally yourself, heard or read about these issues, I will bring the umbrella to you. Buddy, you are standing in a rainstorm!

 

The remainder of the article you can read for yourself. BTW for they naysayers regard to pornography and Freedom of Speech:

 

 

 

¡°¡­The climax of this wave of repression seemed to occur on January 21, 1988, when the twenty-fourth session of the Standing Committee of the Sixth National People¡¯s Congress adopted supplemental regulations imposing stiffer penalties on dealers in pornography. Under these regulations, if the total value of the pornographic materials is between 150,000 Yuan and 500,000 Yuan, the dealer shall be sentenced to life imprisonment.

 

In a nationwide strike against pornography, beginning a few weeks after the Tiananmen Square massacre, on July 11, 1989, 65,000 policemen and other bureaucrats were mobilized to investigate publishing houses, distributors, and booksellers. By August 21, more than 11,000,000 books and magazines had been confiscated, and about 2,000 publishing and distributing centers, and 100 private booksellers were forced out of business. But then Deng Xiaoping, China¡¯s top leader, went further by declaring that some publishers of erotica deserved the death penalty. It may be at least one of the most severe political punishments against ¡°pornography¡± ever suggested by a national leader anywhere in the world. After this, in July 1990, the Supreme People¡¯s Court issued a new decree stating that the death sentence is the proper penalty for traffickers in prostitution and/or pornography.¡±

 

 

I think I know what business I won¡¯t be setting up in China to make a few extra bucks!

 

Now, onto more important matters.

 

Chinese women generally love sex and love since they go hand-in-hand. If you have an unhappy Chinese woman; I assure you that sex and love are going to suck! Remember what I said about trust and confidence in the second posting I did? This has direct interplay into this field.

 

If the reader has read the sex Survey in the hyperlink which I gave previously, they will begin to understand why at times the average Chinese woman is not the raving sexually charged woman, that greets you and the door, throws you on the floor and ¡°has her way with you!¡±

 

They are as a general whole, demure and respect their husbands. They want you! However, this is done at the right time and place. Chinese women do NOT get up in front of your friends and declare how much they love you. These are issues when they get behind the closed doors of their home.

 

I once stated that many times Chinese women are somewhat of ¡°virgins¡± as to love and sex! They simply haven¡¯t had the past experiences that you or I have had. Yes gentlemen! Pornography and please don¡¯t even attempt to tell me that you purchased the magazine for the articles! LOL!

 

Many times, the male partner must understand the Chinese woman and the knowledge that she is bringing to the marriage. The typical man will have to do a bit of guiding, teaching and coaching to help her. He must also understand what she is comfortable with, what she enjoys and desires. If you don¡¯t know, start gently with her, talk with her and ASK! Once she is comfortable with her husband and fianc¨¦e, she will let you know.

 

Most of the ladies enjoy tactile responses and her partner appreciating her for what she is! Just a side note, avoid ticklish spots. There is no quicker way to piss a woman off, than to accidentally carried away and hit one of them. Just take my own experience of this as a fact.

 

Like I stated previously, I would relate some personal experiences of my own in, without going into huge details.

 

I think the largest surprise I had with my wife is the amount of collateral damage to the neighbors. In short....noise! I China, my wife is fairly quiet. Once we reached the states and there were no Chinese neighbors? Holy Crap! Remember the movie Porky¡¯s and the locker room scene? Same thing. I asked her about this once. She stated that now she could act the way she felt and wanted to speak! HMMMMMM Freedom of Speech I suppose! Boy! Do I love America for this!

 

I will close for now and begin posting on a timelier basis. Like I stated previously, this week has be one long damn long week. Thank God Friday is tomorrow!

 

Take care my friends!

 

Dave

[luckyjack]

I'm not sure I have ever replied to a posting on this site, although I have read it with interest since I started down the Road to China. Thanks.

 

My wife and I have had some tough times adjusting to marriage and the differences in expectations and culture, too. Wow! So much of what we have experienced is mirrored in the comments here! Understanding that it isn't "personal" has helped me immensely and made it so much easier for me to respond with patience and a loving attitude than with impatience and frustration.

 

I had the experience with the house. She wants a bigger house. Why, when there are only two of us? She has a dream of a staircase. She doesn't know what she would do with the upstairs and she darn sure doesn't want to clean it, protestations that she will aside. So, I offered to build her a staircase to nowhere in our one-story house. Yes, absurd. Her response? "You are stupid, ridiculous." But we laughed at it and it is an inside joke for us now. Yes, I know she hasn't forgotten and one day we will likely have a two-story house with a special staircase, but it gives me plausible deniability for the moment.

 

I am having the experience with the car. First one and then another, just when I have it arranged for the first... and on it goes, depending on what is popular at the moment in China! Not what makes sense in the USA. So, I laugh and wait and get her involved in the costs of the various models and options. Boy, when it comes to spending the money the practicality takes over. Now a Civic looks much better than a BMW, Benz or even a Toyota Camry.

 

Love, showing love and teaching sex within the marriage... also just as you described. Once introduced in the context of marriage and love, her expression of love privately and physically was liberated with positive results for us both.

 

And on it goes... my experience in lock-step with what you have written here.

 

I have one other item that I would like to mention and to see what comments it draws.

 

My wife is just over 40. Married once before. She has her Ph.D. from Tsinghua Univ., arguably the Harvard of China. And, she rarely fails to remind me that she is not stupid and that she is "Tsinghua PhD" I have learned that this seems to be what we here in the West might consider minor royalty.

 

We have bumped heads many times over things that revolve around what she KNOWS about China and how she EXPECTS things in the US to somehow be the same way. Dealing with an extremely smart Tiger or Dragon is even tougher than the "garden variety!"

 

First, I have learned that some other Chinese will immediately regard her as smart and give her her just due in the smart category. However, I have also learned that it is said that at Tsinghua U. there are Men, there are women and there are Women Tsinghua PHD. Ouch! I wonder if any of you have encountered this or are aware of it.

 

Second, I wandered into a defense that seems to be rather effective with her. I am 57. I have undergrad degrees in German and Russian, know some Spanish, have learned some Swedish, Japanese, French. (No, haven't learned more than a little Chinese -- YET) I am a Pilot with an Airline Transport Pilot cert and a couple of jet type ratings, a flight instructor and so on, for those who know aviation. I am retired from the Army where I was an airborne-ranger, infantry officer. I have an MA in information systems. I lived in Germany for over 6 years and have traveled a lot in Europe. I've owned and operated a couple of businesses, including real estate, a flight school or two, and a sports fencing (swords?) club. And to top it off, I was a single parent for the last 13 years before marrying my wife. My son is now 18 and a senior at Texas A&M. He started college at 15 and is a whole bunch smarter than I am. He also spent two summers in China with my now wife learning to read, speak and write Chinese.

 

All that should have given me some credibility, right? Not really! But, I tell you all this stuff because I finally found a way to earn some credibility from her by insisting that I had a PHD in LIFE. That is how I know how to run a lawn mower, unstop the toilet, repair small electrical appliances, know that you can't put clothes wash soap in the dishwasher, don't put celery and hard veggies in the disposal, how to clean the bathroom properly - both toilet and shower, and how/when to water the house plants... and so many other little things that we here in the USA take for granted and that somehow they never teach to Chinese undergraduate and graduate students. It has been a salvation that I can fall back on my "LIFE PHD" when I start getting the "I am Tsinghua PhD. You don't think I am stupid!" Oh, did I mention that she was much more competitive than I am?

 

So, I offer this little bit in the hopes that some of you guys out there who grew up learning how to change a light bulb or install an electrical switch, change oil in the car all by yourself, paint the walls inside or out and so on, will be able to trot out this one thing that has helped me.

 

We have been married for a bit over 1.5 years. I can tell you that if it hadn't been for one of my friends who has been married to his Korean wife for 31 years, I don't think I could have tolerated the adjustments I have had to make to date. I have been amazed at how similar or even identical my friends experiences have been to the ones I have encountered! And after 31 years of marriage, she is still the one in the marriage who is Infallible and he, as he says, is just a "Sh*t eating dog" as he says with a smile. Harsh? Naw, just a loving relationship between one of us "pore ole white guys" (gringo? vs. lowei?) and the all-knowing, seeing, powerful with 5000 years of culture behind them. (my tongue is firmly in my cheek.)

[Sebastian]

Myself, greatly relieved since I was saving around $20,000, buying a "wol wo" as compared to a 500 Series Mercedes!

 

Woo Hoo !! Finally !! Come to the Dark Side, O Cerberus - Volvos Rock !

 

Except for the 2001 V70 wagon series - stay away from that one - it was designed without Volvo's normal '500,000 miles if you do the maintenance' engineering team.

[Cerberus]

Myself, greatly relieved since I was saving around $20,000, buying a "wol wo" as compared to a 500 Series Mercedes!

 

Woo Hoo !! Finally !! Come to the Dark Side, O Cerberus - Volvos Rock !

 

Except for the 2001 V70 wagon series - stay away from that one - it was designed without Volvo's normal '500,000 miles if you do the maintenance' engineering team.

 

To the CFL forum at large,

 

I just finally signed on today and have intention of finishing this thread. I know an explanation is in order. 2 days after my last posting I did a maintenance team was alerted. We ended up in Guam, Sasebo Japan, and finally in Dubai (not actually in Dubai, but the sea near there). Dubai was great even though we never landed. However, it was the greatest adventure I¡¯ve ever had. Essentially, we were living on a ¡°boat.¡± For the uninitiated to the US Navy the term boat refers to those aboard a vessel (aka ship) or the remaining class of boasts and are always referred to as such. Some of the Ex-navy members now know what I¡¯m talking about. My God! I was blown away by the professionalism of the crew. Spent 4 days here and I will remember this until I die. The only drawback was ¡°hot-bunking¡± with two other seamen.

 

BTW, I have mentioned this before. Try to imagine me at 295 pounds plus, 6 feet 7 inches, fitting into a naval bunk. Gives new meaning to fetal position in your mother¡¯s womb! LOL!

 

Thanks so much for the adventure guys! I¡¯m sorry my size took up so much room in the wardroom during meals!

 

After this returned to San Diego and had three audits conducted on various operations that I¡¯m involved in. LOL! Yeah! We got gored! I suppose it was not unexpected. The auditors have to find something to justify their paycheck!

 

After this, I opened up a can of whoop-ass, when I discovered a glitch in the material supply system, that affected a large number of ships and we are still attempting to rectify it. I won¡¯t go into great detail and only one member knows about it and my involvement, would be boring anyway to other anyway. Thanks Kevin, for being my ¡°crying-shoulder!¡± First, second and third round are on me. The dinner is also! See you soon in CA.

 

Anyway Sebastian, regard to the car, I have found the perfect one for the wife. Check out this link. BTW, turn your sound system up, while watching! I did a lot of racing around when I was a kid, built several muscle cars, designed after NASCAR. Sorry! I hate drag racing. However; TOP END? Now this is another matter by itself! When I watched this video, I have never in my life heard an engine howl when it sucks in oxygen. 253 MPH? For our wife¡¯s and fianc¨¦e¡¯s this equates to 407 KPH! Now all we need is a reformed Chinese taxi driver! LOL!

 

 

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4660115890703519062.

 

 

 

All I need to do it to win the Mega Millions Lottery, and then easily purchase this little gas-saver.

 

I do apologize to members. I have three pending telephones calls to two CFL members and in my mind they have questions and will always come first, and finally the wife calling from China. I assure you that this thread will continue! For members please go back and refresh yourself on the hyperlink I posted. Now is when we get to the real ¡°nitty-gritty!¡± BTW as a teaser; this is the segment where we discuss jealousy. Obviously, Chinese women never show their jealousy do they?

 

Dave

[Cerberus]

When I left off, we were discussing sexual attitudes and values. I hope that members have gone back and read and reread the link that I provided. For those, needing a refresher, here it is again: http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/china.html. This particle article describes very accurately of what the mind set is and how is begins developing and finally reaches the stage where you are today, at whatever age bracket you are at right now in China and/or the West.

 

We talked about love, finances and/or economic stability, cultural issues that are present from ¡°both sides of the coin.¡± These issues IMHO must be addressed from the very start, continuing into married life and even until the final demise of the marriage whether through death and/or divorce. These values will always, always be here, in one fashion or another. They need to be addressed right from the very first communication by both men and women and still need to be addressed, in the relationship and improved upon. If you fail to do this, both of you will be stumbling around the woods, bumping into tree after tree.

 

I will digress a bit, and describe where the author¡¯s mentality is originating. Perhaps, this particular analogy can be used by others to adjust and improve their own lives. CFL members are keenly aware of my past Far East experiences, travel and past/present marriage. I have always been keenly aware of understanding these differences. My wife and I went about trying to resolve them right from the beginning. After 4 to 5 months past, my wife and I discussed what she thought about this and the interplay they had with a mixed marriage. She explained it to me so clearly it blew me away it was so simple.

 

She described a marriage not at all unlike the Yin and Yang symbol. However, her idea of these values was more complex. It is separated in three different areas, instead of the traditional two. The three areas were to be differentiated into the following areas:

 

• Material Goods/Wealth/Prosperity/Family (40%)
  
• Love/Sex (30%)
  
• Culture/Knowledge/Education (30%)
  

 

All of the segments are dynamic and ever changing. However, they all will return to their original rest position. As an example: The wife wants to have a new house future economic stability, etc. Item #1 has 40% rating. Therefore, overtime at work, savings, the extra jobs, etc are necessary. Obviously, while attempting to reach this goal the percentages must be altered in Items 2 & 3. Sex with the wife/husband is going to drop. Less attention is paid to each other. Going to movies, concerts, restaurants and other items with Item 3 Culture must change. The trick is to understand the balance. Remember you can change the values for a short time, but no forever. If one attempts to change them permanently the dynamics in the relationship are altered and one has to suffer the consequences. Ergo keep Item 1 in mind and achievable, while sometimes returning Items 2 & 3 to their original position. Later when both have had time to breathe, then readjust the totals towards achieving the goal.

 

Please feel free to adjust this sample I gave to fit your own relationship. The only item that doesn¡¯t really change is Item 1.

 

This IMHO, is what many Chinese men and women seek, and may I mention? You are a part of this equation! They desire the passion of sex and love, being with their family, being with their husband. However, make no mistake! They are Chinese, and material goods are high on the scale. After all, ¡°you can¡¯t eat love¡± and expect to have a marriage survive.

 

Now onwards.

 

It is always a surprise to see how deeply passionate Chinese women are. The trick is to find what makes the particular Chinese woman/man passionate. What drives them? What do they expect in the way of love and sex? There are no easy answers here. What makes my family tick, could possibly be 180¡ã opposite of what works for your family. That is why I satiated I¡¯m no demi-God and have all the answers. I merely provide tools for the reader to use and/or adjust to their own needs.

 

There are some generalities though. One of the first I have seen is with the women, is that want you to love them and they want to love you. They want to look after your needs and fulfill your desires. A rather bold and sweeping statement, if I may so. Remember that you as the man have a reciprocal duty to do the same.

 

Remember the Yin & Yang symbol I gave previously? Now the reader can understand how material goods come into play here. Like I stated; ¡°you can¡¯t eat love.¡± If you have a poor economic status, love will only work for a short time, but will not last forever.

 

I previously discussed about most of the women being ¡°virgins¡± (for the lack of a better term) as to Western passion and how coaching is needed. No truer statement had I made than this particular one. We aren¡¯t talking about kinky and weird stuff here. I¡¯m speaking of the basic sexual act and love between a man and a woman and how it is expressed. Both people have coaching to do here and both need to understand what the opposite needs, wants and highly desires.

 

The sex Report in the link above describes this particular issue very carefully and is covered in great depth. BTW, they were not lying about the times either! I have gotten this from members I speak privately with, complaints that my wife has heard and people I have talked with far prior to this posting. Believe it or not, this is a cause for divorce, coupled with the lack of passion in a full Chinese marriage. The new generation of Chinese women, expect far more of their marriage, than what they currently get. Generally speaking and there are exceptions, most of these women have usually been with a partner who treats the sexual act as more than a quickie event to satisfy themselves and their partner's needs are of little to no consequence. If the partner can¡¯t fulfill this need, they (women) will move onto greener pastures. Is there not a more base reason to not expect the divorce rate to climb even further in China, as the women have a higher set of standards? If the men can¡¯t make this standard; ¡°Hasta la vista!¡± BTW CFL gentlemen! You are under this same standard and can suffer the same fate. If we ran our own business, which employee gets the axe? The energetic one? Or the lackadaisical one?

 

From my own standpoint with my marriage, there are several humorous side notes that I have seen/experienced and can drive this point home very hard. I mean after the entire CFL forum at large does need a laugh.

 

The first is when I arrived in China and I met my wife. Nature took its natural course, thank God! However, I immediately detected not some small amount of sexual inexperience. There were times when the act seemed to be out of X-rated DVD. I particularly noticed this fact when I was being lightly slapped/tapped on the lower appendage numerous times. We were both new in the relationship, so I didn¡¯t want to shoot the relationship in the foot so early yet! However, this kept going over the next seven to ten days.

 

Remember the old adage the ¡°Curiosity killed the cat?¡± Took over with me and I ventured to a place where angels fear to tread. I brought up as delicately as I could be able to do with such an issue. Her response was that he Japanese tutor taught these techniques to her, on how to satisfy a man! COOOOOLLLLLL! I knew that her tutor had been a 28-year-old Japanese woman! I¡¯m thinking to myself; ¡°I thought that Chinese women are a bit of sticks in the mud as to sex!¡± WOOWWWW! A typical male-orientated sexual-fantasy and an answer all in the same moment! She went on to explain after I inquired, that NO, not that WAY! Seems that the tutor had previously returned from Japan and brought home ¡°yellow¡± (DVD porn) material to China for her own husband. Hence she lent the DVD to my wife for ¡°educational¡± purposes, and I got to be on the receiving end of the tutelage! Therefore new CFL members: If your ¡°act¡± seems to be something scripted from a porn movie, it may very well be!

 

However, on a more serious note and back onto the topic. Many Chinese women don¡¯t understand an orgasm. They don¡¯t understand that this to be expected and eagerly sought after from their partner. Believe me when I say this. The first time for my wife, she almost passed out and as she said later felt like she went crazy. I suppose that I could have taken this as that I¡¯m a sexual God. However, once I showered and reduced my swollen male head and ego, I understood that she truly didn¡¯t understand this very natural act. We later discussed and she inquired what was this and was she sick and needed to see a doctor? I chuckled inwardly and told her no she wasn¡¯t sick and that it was natural for a woman to feel this way. This led to an hour-long discussion, between us. Once she understood it, I created my own ¡°Frankenstein.¡±

 

This not uncommon and I have spoken to one man on the telephone. Similar circumstances arose, with the same expected results. She actually retreated from the bed to a corner of a room. She had the same questions my wife did. Once she understood it¡­ Let us just say that he now has his own ¡°Frankenstein.¡± Both of us have women that are becoming very knowledgeable at an incredible rate.

 

A bit of coaching and tutoring goes a long way in making a Chinese wife happy. BTW, if she begins coaching you, then you better be paying attention too! This is no one-way street! The Frankenstein effect I talked about goes far into the relationship. Once the two of you understand each other¡¯s needs known, that 1 to 4 minute crap stops immediately. We are talking about 45 minute to 1.5 hours at a time. I mean honestly, unless she is a ¡°green card rider,¡± is this not the same woman that stumbled into a China Love or Asian Friend Finder office? This woman was seeking for passion right from the onset of the first E-mail. Chinese women are simply more tactful and polite. The greatest part is that you are accepting them as sexually desirable objects, children and all. This IMHO, is one of the greatest failings of Chinese men. Their own standards, goals and expectations that are formed by their own society and imprinted. This isn¡¯t denigrating them at all, albeit sounds this way. There are many good men in China. However, their lack of passions is what kills them, hence the phenomenal rising divorce rate in China, and will most likely keep rising for the foreseeable future. Hence your wife w/children are ¡°hand-me down¡± goods, and no longer sexually desirable. If you don¡¯t think that the wife and/older Chinese woman is or was sexually frustrated/repressed or does not have the same feelings I have forwarded¡­. Well you better go back and do some serious research starting with you wife and actually listen to what she tells you. Remember the first time you unleashed a dragon in your home and the wife became angry? She represses her anger in a similar manner as sexual passions. So why not release both of them? Nahhh! Forget about the anger side of the house! LOL! If a Chinese woman has this much pent-up anger, imagine what the sexual passions are like fully released? You have to dig for gold. It doesn¡¯t just lie around waiting to be picked up! That is what makes gold so valuable in the first place! The same reasoning is true as to the Chinese woman. You married her! Now! Go out and dig for the gold!

 

For new CFL members, these issues are just as important. I would advise that members have a game plan in their mind when meeting the new girlfriend for the first time, children or not. They have the same issues, passions and desires. And NO! Don¡¯t ask her about her orgasms, because you read it in CFL forum or Cerberus said so! Treat the subject as delicately as she wants and is comfortable with. Over the course of time, she will explain it in more graphic detail as she warms up to you.

 

While we are on this subject of sex, lets discuss age in relationship to this. Many members in this forum are generally from 40 to 60 years plus. This is not directed as a taunt to younger members. However, many Chinese women do not factor your age in. In the West we can become an aberration, and in the Far East this is the norm. Men of our age if we ask for the time from a young beautiful women in the West, will have the police arrest us as lecherous old men! A bit extreme, I agree! However, the reader understands my point. Hence, another difference I have detected. Generally speaking, to most Chinese women the age differences are not a huge factor to many of them when choosing a husband. Many times they are attracted to older men. I believe this entails that the older man has more maturity, experience, etc, etc. However, be cognizant of the fact that this does extend throughout many countries in the Far East, such as Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia.

 

I suppose that everyone will want proof is in the pudding. I will pick on man in CFL and beg his indulgence to sink this age difference point home. He is the greatest example I can think of. I assure all of you that it is complimentary. Look at the photograph of LeeFisher3 (CFL moderator) and his family. Lee is older, probably very distinguished looking when one meets him in person. Now! Look at his beautiful wife and their children that Lee accepted as his own! WOW! Is this a beautiful woman or what?!? However, think for just one minute and imagine the reactions/looks that his co-workers or a new Western acquaintance gives when seeing Lee and his wife together, and Lee introduces her the first time. Do the words ¡°robbing the cradle,¡± ¡°She is just after his money, look at their age difference,¡± have any meaning yet? Look at people¡¯s eyes deeply and watch their hands. You will quickly see what I¡¯m talking about. BTW, young CFL, your comments are: ¡°She just wants a Green Card,¡± ¡°He must be a loser, since he married a Chinese woman and can¡¯t find a US woman,¡± ¡°Why didn¡¯t he marry a Western woman? It must be just for sex!¡± As a side point, if you under the impression that the US has far progressed past these statements, Well! You may have resided too long in your little walnut shell of life! However, Lee and his family are one of many successful relationships that you see where age does NOT have any significance. I¡¯m sorry if I offended anyone not talking about them. Lee was just one of the past samples I could come up with from the cuff! I should also mention that many others and myself are approximately 10 years senior to our wives.

 

However, I digress. This pattern seems to begin dying out the more affluent a country is, such as Korea or Japan. BTW older guys! If you think that you are off the hook with the previous paragraphs, then you are in for a real rude shock! You aren¡¯t, and you will see the women every bit as passionate. The rules and standards change and/or modified somewhat. However, every bit of that same passion is there. How many other sex studies have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that a woman begins sexually peaking beginning at 30 and extends until approximately 50 years or so? Unfortunately, for us men we are worried about our jobs and the ilk and we begin degrading. Therefore, go out lose some weight, work on the cardiovascular systems, think about Cialis and the like, and begin searching for sales on vitamin E at the local pharmacy. You will need it.

 

I will continue to stay on this subject and post more on a timelier basis. My schedule is finally coming clear. I hope to hear from other members in regard to these issues.

 

Dave

Edited March 29, 2009 by Cerberus (see edit history)

[Cerberus]

I'm not sure I have ever replied to a posting on this site, although I have read it with interest since I started down the Road to China. Thanks.

 

My wife and I have had some tough times adjusting to marriage and the differences in expectations and culture, too. Wow! So much of what we have experienced is mirrored in the comments here! Understanding that it isn't "personal" has helped me immensely and made it so much easier for me to respond with patience and a loving attitude than with impatience and frustration.

 

I had the experience with the house. She wants a bigger house. Why, when there are only two of us? She has a dream of a staircase. She doesn't know what she would do with the upstairs and she darn sure doesn't want to clean it, protestations that she will aside. So, I offered to build her a staircase to nowhere in our one-story house. Yes, absurd. Her response? "You are stupid, ridiculous." But we laughed at it and it is an inside joke for us now. Yes, I know she hasn't forgotten and one day we will likely have a two-story house with a special staircase, but it gives me plausible deniability for the moment.

 

I am having the experience with the car. First one and then another, just when I have it arranged for the first... and on it goes, depending on what is popular at the moment in China! Not what makes sense in the USA. So, I laugh and wait and get her involved in the costs of the various models and options. Boy, when it comes to spending the money the practicality takes over. Now a Civic looks much better than a BMW, Benz or even a Toyota Camry.

 

Love, showing love and teaching sex within the marriage... also just as you described. Once introduced in the context of marriage and love, her expression of love privately and physically was liberated with positive results for us both.

 

And on it goes... my experience in lock-step with what you have written here.

 

I have one other item that I would like to mention and to see what comments it draws.

 

My wife is just over 40. Married once before. She has her Ph.D. from Tsinghua Univ., arguably the Harvard of China. And, she rarely fails to remind me that she is not stupid and that she is "Tsinghua PhD" I have learned that this seems to be what we here in the West might consider minor royalty.

 

We have bumped heads many times over things that revolve around what she KNOWS about China and how she EXPECTS things in the US to somehow be the same way. Dealing with an extremely smart Tiger or Dragon is even tougher than the "garden variety!"

 

First, I have learned that some other Chinese will immediately regard her as smart and give her her just due in the smart category. However, I have also learned that it is said that at Tsinghua U. there are Men, there are women and there are Women Tsinghua PHD. Ouch! I wonder if any of you have encountered this or are aware of it.

 

Second, I wandered into a defense that seems to be rather effective with her. I am 57. I have undergrad degrees in German and Russian, know some Spanish, have learned some Swedish, Japanese, French. (No, haven't learned more than a little Chinese -- YET) I am a Pilot with an Airline Transport Pilot cert and a couple of jet type ratings, a flight instructor and so on, for those who know aviation. I am retired from the Army where I was an airborne-ranger, infantry officer. I have an MA in information systems. I lived in Germany for over 6 years and have traveled a lot in Europe. I've owned and operated a couple of businesses, including real estate, a flight school or two, and a sports fencing (swords?) club. And to top it off, I was a single parent for the last 13 years before marrying my wife. My son is now 18 and a senior at Texas A&M. He started college at 15 and is a whole bunch smarter than I am. He also spent two summers in China with my now wife learning to read, speak and write Chinese.

 

All that should have given me some credibility, right? Not really! But, I tell you all this stuff because I finally found a way to earn some credibility from her by insisting that I had a PHD in LIFE. That is how I know how to run a lawn mower, unstop the toilet, repair small electrical appliances, know that you can't put clothes wash soap in the dishwasher, don't put celery and hard veggies in the disposal, how to clean the bathroom properly - both toilet and shower, and how/when to water the house plants... and so many other little things that we here in the USA take for granted and that somehow they never teach to Chinese undergraduate and graduate students. It has been a salvation that I can fall back on my "LIFE PHD" when I start getting the "I am Tsinghua PhD. You don't think I am stupid!" Oh, did I mention that she was much more competitive than I am?

 

So, I offer this little bit in the hopes that some of you guys out there who grew up learning how to change a light bulb or install an electrical switch, change oil in the car all by yourself, paint the walls inside or out and so on, will be able to trot out this one thing that has helped me.

 

We have been married for a bit over 1.5 years. I can tell you that if it hadn't been for one of my friends who has been married to his Korean wife for 31 years, I don't think I could have tolerated the adjustments I have had to make to date. I have been amazed at how similar or even identical my friends experiences have been to the ones I have encountered! And after 31 years of marriage, she is still the one in the marriage who is Infallible and he, as he says, is just a "Sh*t eating dog" as he says with a smile. Harsh? Naw, just a loving relationship between one of us "pore ole white guys" (gringo? vs. lowei?) and the all-knowing, seeing, powerful with 5000 years of culture behind them. (my tongue is firmly in my cheek.)

Jack ,

 

I understand exactly where you are coming from. The PhD of Life! Extremely true and members should pay attention to this point.

 

Myself much combat action, former 1/75 Ranger, three degrees, Military Police, shot twice and I don't count up the ass-kickings. My wife same issues, former PRC employee cell supervisor, highly respected family in government, four teachers/professors, one minister, three surgeons.

 

When it really comes down to it the formal education merely helps you thirst for knowledge more. Your wife and you, have both already done this. How many have not? Hence, the main theme of this thread.

 

The only thing that my wife regrets about me is how I gained my PhD. A bit too violent for her. However, as I have told her many times, I not at all unlike an ugly dog! It is ugly, but it is extremely loyal and loving. I truly wished many times I hadn't been formed this way. However, I can't unring a bell and we are together. I sometimes wonder whether my wife and I would be together today, if I was formed differently.

 

Regard to your comments about rough times at first with your marriage, you hit the nail dead on the head! The thread comments that I'm making are only what I experienced for the last five years in my own marriage. I assure you and other CFL members, that this is an on-going process, and I'm still very far, from knowing everything. I have covered the basics that are easily detected. Now it has become an issue of find the small and subtle clues, that are still needed to make the marriage survive.

 

I truly hope that you return soon and make more comments and what you have discovered. It sounds like you have done the same EXACT same things I'm posting about.

 

BTW, my compliments to your wife. Truly a beautiful woman. I suppose that when we marry such extraordinary beauty we are driven to excel and learn to maintain it.

 

In closing there is one issue regard to our wives. It never ceases to amaze me how Chinese women are not at all unlike a railroad rail, wrapped in velvet and have delicate flowers around the velvet. Very beautiful, and delicate appearing. However, anger them and they can beat you half to death and have the attitude of a wolverine in PMS!

 

Dave

[luckyjack]

Jack ,

 

I understand exactly where you are coming from. The PhD of Life! Extremely true and members should pay attention to this point.

 

Myself much combat action, former 1/75 Ranger, three degrees, Military Police, shot twice and I don't count up the ass-kickings. My wife same issues, former PRC employee cell supervisor, highly respected family in government, four teachers/professors, one minister, three surgeons.

 

When it really comes down to it the formal education merely helps you thirst for knowledge more. Your wife and you, have both already done this. How many have not? Hence, the main theme of this thread.

 

The only thing that my wife regrets about me is how I gained my PhD. A bit too violent for her. However, as I have told her many times, I not at all unlike an ugly dog! It is ugly, but it is extremely loyal and loving. I truly wished many times I hadn't been formed this way. However, I can't unring a bell and we are together. I sometimes wonder whether my wife and I would be together today, if I was formed differently.

 

Regard to your comments about rough times at first with your marriage, you hit the nail dead on the head! The thread comments that I'm making are only what I experienced for the last five years in my own marriage. I assure you and other CFL members, that this is an on-going process, and I'm still very far, from knowing everything. I have covered the basics that are easily detected. Now it has become an issue of find the small and subtle clues, that are still needed to make the marriage survive.

 

I truly hope that you return soon and make more comments and what you have discovered. It sounds like you have done the same EXACT same things I'm posting about.

 

BTW, my compliments to your wife. Truly a beautiful woman. I suppose that when we marry such extraordinary beauty we are driven to excel and learn to maintain it.

 

In closing there is one issue regard to our wives. It never ceases to amaze me how Chinese women are not at all unlike a railroad rail, wrapped in velvet and have delicate flowers around the velvet. Very beautiful, and delicate appearing. However, anger them and they can beat you half to death and have the attitude of a wolverine in PMS!

 

Dave

 

 

Great points, Dave, and a great and wonderfully applicable hands-on view of what we've gotten ourselves into. I'm happy to throw my two cents worth in from time to time.

 

Maybe there is a common thread of risk-taking and daring that leads many/most of us to tread this path. Little did we know...

 

Your split out of the areas and approximations of effort are right on. It makes me uncomfortable to put so much emphasis on materialism, but with parents who suffered through the depression in the USA, and stories of rationing from my wife, I can understand the point of view. I didn't feel too vulnerable to having a poor quality of life until our most recent economic downturn.

 

I have another question I'd like to pose. It revolves around how Chinese (well, actually, my wife) show anger.

 

My son tells me that often Chinese sound like they are having a big verbal fight but that they are just talking or bargaining or something like that.

 

I also observe that Chinese I know don't like to take responsibility for their mess ups. It is just fate or someone else's fault or anything other than their fault and they would seem to lose face if they admited any responsibility. Now I grew up with a father who was just like that and was absolutely not Chinese!

 

But, I see that my wife will get boiling mad in a hurry over what seems of no consequence to me. Obviously it IS to her! Then she stays mad for a while. Sometimes just a couple of hours, sometimes a couple of days. Seems she has trouble staying mad for more than that, but won't hesitate to bring it up again and get mad all over again about the same thing! And stay mad for the same amount of time, more or less. As a western guy, I'd prefer to just sit down and discuss it calmly. However that is almost never an option for my "honey."

 

This blow up and boil over method of dealing with anger is tough for me to tolerate. First, I'm of the (male) method of "let's find the cause and fix it." And the strong emotions of the boil-over tend to make me feel emotionally flooded - - and with fight or flight, there is no one to fight and I can't flee. Second, I'm much slower to heat up but once aroused to action I am slow to cool off.

 

So, I can see that if I can just hold my tongue or don't rise to the fight things can go better. But I am not proficient at this. On the other hand, I have to find a constructive way to let my honey know that her behavior is such that I wouldn't tolerate it from my son or daughter and don't think I should tolerate it from a grown woman either.

 

As an aside, I've had the local cops out twice to make sure she knows that hitting and slapping a spouse may be OK in China but are absolutely not acceptable in the USA. Seems she believes me (them)now and it hasn't repeated.

 

Once the anger has passed, however long it takes, then all is sweetness and light once again. Until the next time.

 

In the interim, I have located a Chinese woman PhD marital counselor who practices also in Taiwan and China, speaks Mandarin and whom I plan to see for some cultural insight and to whom I plan to take my wife in hopes that she will want to also gain some cultural insight into

the west. We'll see how/if that goes.

 

So, any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Jack

[Guest jin979]

i like this thread as it helps us all learn about eachother. it gives insight how both think, even if you dont realise it.

[DRBob1021]

we ended up buying a 328i BMW... "all other cars are not good." cause they are not sold in China. Well I am just blaming her, I wanted a BMW too... haha... but do not tell her that.

[Guest Pommey]

we ended up buying a 328i BMW... "all other cars are not good." cause they are not sold in China. Well I am just blaming her, I wanted a BMW too... haha... but do not tell her that.

 

Jin has a 318ic , chinese like their BMW's.

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

I think woman are woman all over the world. Yes they do have different ways because of their cultural surrounding and up bringing.

To quote a line from Ira Gershwin's play of Porgy and Bess.

 

" Listen to your daddy warn you, 'Fore you starts a-travelin' Women may born you, love you, and mourn you, But a woman is a sometime thing, Yes, a woman is a sometime thing.

Bess, you is my woman now, You is, you is, And you must sing and dance and play for two instead of one. Want no wrinkle on your brow, No-how, Because the sorrow of the past is all done done, Oh, Bess, my Bess, The real happiness is just begun."

[Yuanyang]

we ended up buying a 328i BMW... "all other cars are not good." cause they are not sold in China. Well I am just blaming her, I wanted a BMW too... haha... but do not tell her that.

 

Jin has a 318ic , chinese like their BMW's.

Lao po had a Lexus in China so there was no other choice (though I pointed out all of the Chinese women driving Hondas and Toyotas)