GDBILL

Bzzzt ... wrong answer. Try: A month after they've been added as joint account holders.

How do you figure that? Well, Wild Bill, its like this rat cheer....Filed K-1 November 2006, interview in July 2007 treated like a dog by an American and AR blue slipped at interview, 300 day wait on the blue slip which turned into a denial in May 2008, then a short thirteen months for the application to get sent back to the NVC in June of 2009. In July of 2009 the USCIS re-approved the application with no rebuttal letter sent to me...meaning there never was anything wrong with the application to begin with. All courtesy of the American government with no repressive pinko Commie's causing any trouble. Maybe next time "freedom" will apply, eh? I can handle the visa crap, it's just par for the course, especially with my knowledge that when you play ball with Uncle Sammy, he has a tendecy to stick the bat up your ass...at least thousands didn't die in this case. What are your plans for this big revolution that's gonna rock China to it's foundation? tsap seui I do regret using the word "right" as I full well understand that there is no "right" to an immigration visa. Wow, I am sorry to hear that you got such poor treatment in your quest to bring your family to the States. I would like to think that our government had its act together, but I guess we all know that isn't the case. Although there is no "right", I believe there should be a right to an immigrant visa once certain essential criteria are met. Families should have the right to be together. I also have to agree that the term "communist" is pretty much irrelevant these days to anybody with half a brain. As messed up as China is sometimes, the degree of fuckedupedness can often be matched by our own government back home. Sad, but true. Thanks Bill, our immigration system is just is what it is. I can live with it as it has allowed me to buy a nice lil' nest in China that may become very important should my wife find she doesn't care for America, plus we've gotten the opportunity to truly understand each other when the shit hits the fan, more so than we would if she had been given the quick visa after a few fantasy/honeymon trips to China would have afforded us. I agree fully with your last paragraph...Joe McCarthy is long dead. The world is much more open and all that propaganda from both sides is much more transparent to regular citizens of both cultures for what it always was. When an American, or a Chinese points a finger at the other they have to remember...they have 3 fingers pointing right back at them and their country. China will change, just as America is changing, but it has to be at their and our OWN pace. Folks say, "we can't allow China to tell us who our friends are", well, why should we expect that we can tell them how to run their own country? The carrot works much better in making friends with an important country like China, than the garrot. I've always liked your insightful, biting, no holds barred posts from Chinertucky. You've been there a long time, have a sense of what's going on, and your not easily suffering fools approach is often hilarious to me, even if I am sometimes "the fool". Keep it up...and remember to duck when the "revolution" explodes. tsap seui I'm worried ... very worried ... I'm starting to agree with you and with ShaQuaNew all in one day. Now I'm worried! The End must be near. Now, I'm skeerder than hell...1.3billion crazed Chinertuckians revolutin' at the same time is jest downright....revoltin'...what's a feller to do? Anybody got room in their fallout shelter? Chicken Lil' kicked me out of his, that horrible paranoid foul fowl. I jest caint understand why the Chinese and the rest of the world just don't do what we tell 'em to do...can you imagin what a great and peaceful world it would be if all the other countries listened to us and did what we tol' them to do, instead of what they think they need to do? Why, America could rule the world if everybody else just shut up and did as we tol' 'em to do? tsap seui Son, have you gone soft in the head??? Could you kindly show me where in the article it talks about what American wants China to do... Could you please 'splain to me how it was America and the other western running dogs that shoved Charter 08 down the throats of the Chinese people... Some folks just can't bear to think that there may actually be people right in China who are not just ecstatic over the present system... Cuz we all know that inside every Chinaman is an American trying to get out! * * to paraphase from Full Metal Jacket Ok, color me thick, but is it because the Chinese guy ate the American?

But what fun would it be if we had nobody to gossip about? I mean, the "Sure do have big tomatoes this season!" conversation starter only goes so far.

Unless you are a prostitute or have done extensive research into why they do what they've chosen to do, how can you claim to know? Kind of moronic to lay a blanket over an entire class of people just because you have a "friend."

Hold on a second ... It's not where I am comming from, but the way they see it. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.

How do you figure that? Well, Wild Bill, its like this rat cheer....Filed K-1 November 2006, interview in July 2007 treated like a dog by an American and AR blue slipped at interview, 300 day wait on the blue slip which turned into a denial in May 2008, then a short thirteen months for the application to get sent back to the NVC in June of 2009. In July of 2009 the USCIS re-approved the application with no rebuttal letter sent to me...meaning there never was anything wrong with the application to begin with. All courtesy of the American government with no repressive pinko Commie's causing any trouble. Maybe next time "freedom" will apply, eh? I can handle the visa crap, it's just par for the course, especially with my knowledge that when you play ball with Uncle Sammy, he has a tendecy to stick the bat up your ass...at least thousands didn't die in this case. What are your plans for this big revolution that's gonna rock China to it's foundation? tsap seui I do regret using the word "right" as I full well understand that there is no "right" to an immigration visa. Wow, I am sorry to hear that you got such poor treatment in your quest to bring your family to the States. I would like to think that our government had its act together, but I guess we all know that isn't the case. Although there is no "right", I believe there should be a right to an immigrant visa once certain essential criteria are met. Families should have the right to be together. I also have to agree that the term "communist" is pretty much irrelevant these days to anybody with half a brain. As messed up as China is sometimes, the degree of fuckedupedness can often be matched by our own government back home. Sad, but true. Thanks Bill, our immigration system is just is what it is. I can live with it as it has allowed me to buy a nice lil' nest in China that may become very important should my wife find she doesn't care for America, plus we've gotten the opportunity to truly understand each other when the shit hits the fan, more so than we would if she had been given the quick visa after a few fantasy/honeymon trips to China would have afforded us. I agree fully with your last paragraph...Joe McCarthy is long dead. The world is much more open and all that propaganda from both sides is much more transparent to regular citizens of both cultures for what it always was. When an American, or a Chinese points a finger at the other they have to remember...they have 3 fingers pointing right back at them and their country. China will change, just as America is changing, but it has to be at their and our OWN pace. Folks say, "we can't allow China to tell us who our friends are", well, why should we expect that we can tell them how to run their own country? The carrot works much better in making friends with an important country like China, than the garrot. I've always liked your insightful, biting, no holds barred posts from Chinertucky. You've been there a long time, have a sense of what's going on, and your not easily suffering fools approach is often hilarious to me, even if I am sometimes "the fool". Keep it up...and remember to duck when the "revolution" explodes. tsap seui I'm worried ... very worried ... I'm starting to agree with you and with ShaQuaNew all in one day.

1. Already are. Just sometimes have a different definition of "civil rights" and "protected." 2. Already is. Define "adequate." 3. Already are. Selectively. 4. Already ended. Define "persecution," "dissident" and "religious group." People need to realize that China will never have what people in the West think is an ideal system nor should they. I agree that China will never have an ideal system. Obviously we don't either. I think that as we observe China defining its system, we are watching history as it is happening. I think that China is trying to find a new way to govern. They are attempting to find ways to allow more citizen participation, to make government more transparent, and to make government more responsive to the needs of its citizens. That is my hope anyway. As to the items you listed, I have tried to clarify them. 1. Regarding Civil Rights: The most recent example was from the Documentary "Tears of Sichuan Province." The parents were allowed to protest to a point, then they were told they would be arrested if more than three protested at one time. I guess you could classify this as freedom of assembly, and the right to protest and seek redress from the government. Last month Tan Zuoren was sentenced to 5 years in prison for attempting to investigate the tofu construction of the school buildings. The parents of those children just wanted justice and punishment for those officials who allowed the shoddy construction resulting in the death of their children. LiuXiabao is a good example of a dissident who has been persecuted for freedom of speech. He authored the Charter 08. Fineart has written about him. Here is another reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo 2. When two parties agree on a transaction, then you can say the compensation is adequate. The confiscation of land in China for development has been going on for some time. The farmers displaced by the Three Gorges Dam is a prime example of many (not all the 2.3 million that were displaced) were unhappy with the settlement. Here is another example of what happened to Lin Zhengxu back in 2004: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer 3. You are right in that some prominent figures have been made examples of, but I have a friend in China who manages an office building. A large portion of this space is leased to the government. If the bribe is not paid when the lease is renewed, the official threatens to move to another building. I am told that this is "the China way." This isn't so? 4. Persecution: being harassed, jailed, and or tortured by the government. Examples are above: Tan Zuoren, Lin Zhengxu, and Liu Xiabao Dissident: Someone who speaks out against, protest against, or in other ways objects to the policies or actions of the government. Religious group: Falun Gong. First of all, don't go thinking I am disagreeing with you, please. It's just after all these years I start classifying things into three cubbyholes: 1. Things I agree with (or like); 2. Things I disagree with and think it's worth a fight to change; 3. Things I disagree with, but understand the other side's logic; 4. Things I disagree with, but not worth the effort to fight. Now, back to the original list: 1. Civil rights: They define civil rights as being to eat, work, shit & sleep. So in their concept of "rights," they have all they need and then some. It's unfortunate about shoddy construction that caused so many children to die. Protest marches are not going to change the status quo. In fact, the government is probably afraid that protest marches will snowball into another one of the many revolutions China has experienced in the past 5,000 years or more of its history. Now THAt would be bad -- another revolution driving China back into the Dark Ages. Also, I would think it difficult to blame the whole Chinese government for what political leaders in one province do. Believe it or not, the central government does not rule provincial governments with an iron fist. 2. Land compensation: Two parties do not always agree. I have seen this before in Guangzhou. There is a back-and-forth, but ultimately some people are greedy and demand more than what a property is really worth. It's not the US where you can claim an extra million $ because the grass on your old farm was a little greener than on the new farm they give you in replacement. 3. Corruption: It's a problem. There are laws against it. The general consensus is that only those with no seniority and those in the highest levels get busted. The good thing is that when high level public officials get busted they get the death penalty -- perhaps suspened and reduced to life. In the US a congresscritter gets busted and he gets a few months in a golf course. 4. a. Dissidents: The government sees them as a catalyst to revolution (see revolution, above). Besides, pissing up a rope tends to get you splattered in the face with piss. 4.b. Religious groups: I'm not a fan of any organized religion. I knew a lot of people in FLG. Most were in it for the form of communal exercise. The rest were in it as a cult. I knew people who would try to convinvce you that going to the doctor for a medical ailment was wrong and just let FLG cure you. They were psychos. Good riddance. You can believe what you want (i.e. religion) in China. Just don't try and organize it. ===== China has 1.3+ billion people. We have less than 1/3 that. Our system is screwed up. Imagine how screwed up our system would be if we had 3 times the population fighting over who can get an abortion and who can buy a gun. Giving democracy as we know it to China now would like dropping a nuclear bomb on them. Or like giving a car to a three-year-old. Just my 2 cents. Now give me a minute while I quickly get into my asbestos suit.

Agreed Bill. Unfortunately some people draw too much from the never ending stories about China in the Western press. The best place for these people to learn about China is by talking to the citizens that live here. No, not the dissidents. Hell, you can find pissed off people everywhere. Also, for those who are truly interested in the people, government, and culture of China, be open to the big picture and the variety of perspectives. Holy shit! I'm worried, man ... you and I are starting to see eye to eye!

That sounds very plausible. Not every single government employee is a party member and not every party member is a government employee. But I believe everybody in the decision making process is a party member or a member of one of the party's subsidiary parties.

1. Already are. Just sometimes have a different definition of "civil rights" and "protected." 2. Already is. Define "adequate." 3. Already are. Selectively. 4. Already ended. Define "persecution," "dissident" and "religious group." People need to realize that China will never have what people in the West think is an ideal system nor should they.

Instead of trying to change China from afar, why not move here, and see how many people you can rally for your cause. Probably a lot. I've seen where the government is doing better than before, but still a ways to go.

Less than 40% of NPC members are Party members?? Where does that data come from? Is the source credible? As much as the Party fears losing their grip on power, it would be amazing if they allow a body composed of primarily non-party members to actually have any real power.

How do you figure that? Well, Wild Bill, its like this rat cheer....Filed K-1 November 2006, interview in July 2007 treated like a dog by an American and AR blue slipped at interview, 300 day wait on the blue slip which turned into a denial in May 2008, then a short thirteen months for the application to get sent back to the NVC in June of 2009. In July of 2009 the USCIS re-approved the application with no rebuttal letter sent to me...meaning there never was anything wrong with the application to begin with. All courtesy of the American government with no repressive pinko Commie's causing any trouble. Maybe next time "freedom" will apply, eh? I can handle the visa crap, it's just par for the course, especially with my knowledge that when you play ball with Uncle Sammy, he has a tendecy to stick the bat up your ass...at least thousands didn't die in this case. What are your plans for this big revolution that's gonna rock China to it's foundation? tsap seui I do regret using the word "right" as I full well understand that there is no "right" to an immigration visa. Wow, I am sorry to hear that you got such poor treatment in your quest to bring your family to the States. I would like to think that our government had its act together, but I guess we all know that isn't the case. Although there is no "right", I believe there should be a right to an immigrant visa once certain essential criteria are met. Families should have the right to be together. I also have to agree that the term "communist" is pretty much irrelevant these days to anybody with half a brain. As messed up as China is sometimes, the degree of fuckedupedness can often be matched by our own government back home. Sad, but true.

As in Hong Kong and PRC? Or are they allowed to also hold, say, a US or British passport? If they obtained them prior to a certain date (which I can't remember exactly), they are allowed dual citizenship. After that date, they are Chinese citizens exclusively just as anybody from the Mainland. Or at least that what HKers have told me.

To be realistic, expats who speak Mandarin in China are getting to be a dime a dozen. While the language might be a plus, look for something in your core competency that is in demand here. Also, you would need to take into consideration your standard of living while here and exactly how much you need to earn. The overwhelming majority of Fortune 500 companies will not hire an expat in country for a wide variety of legal and financial reasons. Virtually all of the really good paying jobs are for those who the company posts here (in China) to work after having had several years of experience with the company back home. I'm not really sure about Chinese companies, but if your skill set is in high demand they might be a decent option.

How do you figure that?

Of course. The phrase "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is in the vocabulary of practically every primary school student here. Heck, just about everything adopted from abroad here is with "Chinese characteristics." Why not democracy, too? because there is nothing to gain for the ordinary people in china to adopt a system that has oppressed the ordinary people in the west. Good for the rich and corrupt, we already had that, dont need it again . Oppressed? You mean oppression like murdering college students in Tiananmen Square? Oppression like putting people in gulags because they think there should be more than one political party? Or do you mean oppression like destroying a family's home because they have more than one child? One would have to be very small-minded to believe that any one system has a monopoly on oppression.

And even then. Your wife could always retain her Chinese citizenship on the sly and you could get one-year or two-year spousal visas in China with minimal hassle. Then again, Thailand is nice. Hi all been awhile, so what is the two year visa and how long can you get it for? 6 month stay multiple entry? 9 month stay? thanks I imagine you mean the special "L" visa for spouses of Chinese citizens, right? If so, it is still relatively easy to obtain depending on your nationality. They are generally giving initially 1-year multiple entry "L: visas, but more and more 2-year visas are not uncommon. There are a few things they throw in your way to slow you down, though, such as only being to obtain it usually in the place where your spouse maintains her hukou. . . . or at any of the Chinese consulates in the US. It is very easy these days. That is good news! I'm glad they are making things slightly less unreasonable for family members. I'm looking forward to the day when they make permanent residence easier for those who have family in China.

Of course. The phrase "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is in the vocabulary of practically every primary school student here. Heck, just about everything adopted from abroad here is with "Chinese characteristics." Why not democracy, too?

Complicated, but certainly not impossible if one plans ahead.

And even then. Your wife could always retain her Chinese citizenship on the sly and you could get one-year or two-year spousal visas in China with minimal hassle. Then again, Thailand is nice. Hi all been awhile, so what is the two year visa and how long can you get it for? 6 month stay multiple entry? 9 month stay? thanks I imagine you mean the special "L" visa for spouses of Chinese citizens, right? If so, it is still relatively easy to obtain depending on your nationality. They are generally giving initially 1-year multiple entry "L: visas, but more and more 2-year visas are not uncommon. There are a few things they throw in your way to slow you down, though, such as only being to obtain it usually in the place where your spouse maintains her hukou.

There are a number of interesting points made but how realistic is the small movement... for the sake of not turning CFL into the nightly news... Start the post with some opinion or comment you would like to discuss. In theory there should be no hukou. But the sad reality is that it has served the country of 1.3+ billion well and is still a necessity. Besides, even if they did eliminate hukou there are stiull a great many employers who simply will not hire someone unless they are from the immediate geographical area. Try getting a decent job in Beijing without having Beijing hukou.

Western democracy in any form, is just not gonna happen in China. I know there are a lot of hopeful souls that want it to happen, in a belief that it would somehow be a better thing. China is doing just fine right now. It's very, very premature to say "in any form," especially with the changes over recent years. If any form of democracy rears its head in China, it will be "with Chinese characteristics."

"Responding to a netizen's comment on the misuse of public vehicles for personal purposes and public funds for banquets and overseas trips by some government officials, Wen said 'only democracy could help the governance sustain.'" It must be a translation issue because nobody in their right mind would think he is saying that China acknowledges democracy as their target form of government. why would we want corrupt democracy ? As compared to corrupt socialism? Or extremely corrupt communism.

"Responding to a netizen's comment on the misuse of public vehicles for personal purposes and public funds for banquets and overseas trips by some government officials, Wen said 'only democracy could help the governance sustain.'" It must be a translation issue because nobody in their right mind would think he is saying that China acknowledges democracy as their target form of government.