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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37834457/ns/bu...new_york_times/ Stores¡¯ treatment of shoplifters tests legal limits Importing Chinese practice of fining, publicly shaming alleged thieves By Corey Kilgannon and Jeffrey E. Singer updated 3:51 p.m. PT, Mon., June 21, 2010 The A & N Food Market on Main Street in Flushing, Queens, has an almost entirely Chinese clientele. The inventory includes live eels, turtles and frogs, frozen duck tongue and canned congee. These goods, like products sold in every neighborhood of the city, attract their share of shoplifters. But A & N Food Market has an unusual way of dealing with the problem. First, suspected shoplifters caught by the store¡¯s security guards or staff members have their identification seized. Then, they are photographed holding up the items they are accused of trying to steal. Finally, workers at the store threaten to display the photographs to embarrass them, and to call the police ¡ª unless the accused thieves hand over money. ¡°We usually fine them $400,¡± said Tem Shieh, 60, the manager, who keeps track of customers on 30 video monitors in the store¡¯s surveillance system. ¡°If they don¡¯t have the money, then we usually hold their identification and give them a chance to go get it.¡± The practice of catching suspected shoplifters and demanding payment is an import from China, several experts in retail loss prevention said, where there is a traditional slogan that some storekeepers post: ¡°Steal one, fine 10.¡± Whether this practice is legal in the United States is open to interpretation. New York State law allows ¡°shopkeepers¡¯ privileges¡± that fall somewhere between the police and a citizen¡¯s arrest. The law also details ¡°civil recovery statutes,¡± by which retailers may use the threat of a civil lawsuit to recover substantial settlements for even minor thievery. But threatening to report that someone has committed a crime can be considered a form of extortion. Neither the Police Department nor the Queens district attorney¡¯s office said it had received any complaints about the practice. But critics of the practice argue that the accused shoplifters are deprived of basic civil rights and the usual assurances in public law proceedings, like the right to a lawyer and freedom from coercion, and are not being held by adequately trained security officials with proper oversight. ¡°If a store owner says he¡¯ll call the police unless you pay up, that¡¯s extortion, that¡¯s illegal,¡± said Steven Wong, a community advocate in Chinatown, sitting in his office above a restaurant on Chatham Square. ¡°And putting up pictures in public, calling someone a thief who has never even been formally charged, that¡¯s a violation of their civil rights.¡± It is unclear exactly how rampant this practice is, and whether threats of arrest are always used, but it exists in certain predominantly Chinese neighborhoods around the city. Many accused shoplifters plead poverty. But they usually manage to come up with money to pay their way out of being publicly shamed and arrested, Mr. Shieh said, often after calling upon friends and relatives for the cash. Unfounded fears of being deported often color their panicked responses. ¡°Two weeks ago, a woman tried to take two bags of grapes worth maybe $10,¡± he said, speaking in Chinese. The woman first said she had no money, but somehow found some. ¡°She came back with eight new $50 bills,¡± Mr. Shieh said. At the Chang Jiang Supermarket on Kissena Boulevard in Flushing, where hawkers of fresh produce in sidewalk bins continuously yell out specials in Chinese, credit cards are accepted from accused shoplifters for payment to avoid arrest, said the manager, Wu Jian Si. ¡°They just say, ¡®Run the credit card,¡¯ ¡± said Mr. Wu, 30, speaking in Chinese. ¡°They have money.¡± Fliers posted in the store display images of accused shoplifters and of a man being escorted by the police, along with warnings in Chinese and English that say, ¡°If we catch, we will take your photo for records and your fine will be $400 or you go to prison.¡± The fines are necessary, Mr. Wu said, because the police do not always arrest the accused shoplifters. And even if they do, Mr. Wu said, ¡°The most they¡¯ll get is 24 hours.¡± Many of the accused shoplifters are immigrants who have a heightened fear of authority, of those in uniform, and they often lack proper immigration status, said Jason Sanchez, 24, who has worked as a security guard at several Chinese markets in Flushing. ¡°They figure they¡¯ll be deported, so they¡¯ll do anything to get the money,¡± Mr. Sanchez said. ¡°Some stores ask for $400, or some ask for $200 ¡ª it becomes a negotiation.¡± In an example of the wall-of-shame style that certain stores use, a grocery called NY Tak Shing Hong, on East Broadway in Manhattan¡¯s Chinatown, posts photographs near the cash registers, some bearing names, addresses and Social Security numbers of the persons depicted. Several also include simple descriptions in Chinese, like ¡°Stole Medicine¡± and ¡°Thief.¡± Some store owners share their photographs with other stores, or post them in other store branches they own. For example, an image in the Chang Jiang market of a man holding up a large stash of live fish in a plastic bag, with the words ¡°Big Thief,¡± can also be seen in several other stores in the area. The Chung Fat Supermarket, on Main Street in Flushing, posts photographs of accused shoplifters on the front doors and up above the cashiers. ¡°All we can do is put up their pictures and let them know we do something about it,¡± a manager, Sam Lim, 42, said in Chinese, referring to the many photographs of suspected shoplifters posted near the cashiers. Chung Fat has 100 surveillance cameras. According to a sign in a storage area, first-time shoplifters face a $500 fine, and repeat offenders must pay $2,000. In reality, though, store officials acknowledge they are rarely able to collect much money from offenders. Some of these enforcement policies have recently come under fire. Last month, two Chinese immigrants spoke out publicly after being wrongly accused of shoplifting at the New York Supermarket, a store under the Manhattan Bridge in Chinatown that posts photographs of accused shoplifters next to the cashier, behind the live crabs and eels. One woman, Li Yuxin, said that after being falsely accused of thievery, she began weeping in front of a crowd of shoppers. Another woman, Liang Huanqiong, a 60-year-old home attendant, also claimed that false accusations of theft damaged her reputation and caused mental anguish. The episodes made headlines in Chinese-language newspapers, and store officials apologized to the women and said they would train employees to better recognize thievery and use more sensitivity in approaching suspected shoplifters, the articles reported. Both women are being advocated for by Mr. Wong, who is critical of the practices despite the apparent vagueness of the law. The police declined to discuss the legality of the practice without specific examples. In New York State, a retailer may sue a thief (who has stolen any type of item, costly or not) for the item¡¯s retail price up to $1,500 if the item is not resalable, along with a penalty of $75 to $500, depending on the item¡¯s price. Usually, the retailer threatens legal action and settles for several hundred dollars, experts in loss prevention said. This process is separate from criminal prosecution and can take place without arrest or conviction, even if the case is criminally tried and thrown out. Richard Hollinger, a sociologist and criminologist at the University of Florida, said that a shopkeeper demanding money on the spot is a version of the legal process of civil recovery outside the law. He said it can veer into extortion, which is defined by laws in New York State as demanding payment using the fear of accusing ¡°some person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against him.¡± Mr. Sanchez, the security guard, said that some stores parade the suspected shoplifter up and down the aisles, announcing the attempted theft to customers. ¡°It is truly the walk of shame,¡± he said.

Exactly. I can tell y'all exactly when those manufacturing jobs will return to the US -- give y'all a date certain ... The exact date is ... When Hell freezes over.

Amen, Cuzzin Tsap. Amen!

Unfortunately, the prevailing air currents are in the wrong direction. But you might try a bottle w/stopper. If a message in a bottle is all there is, then someone needs to come up with a way to pay off the Chinese banks and provide this service online for people. Ya busy? Not too busy to accept money! You can use PayPal. Or, Cuzzin Ord, just put the money in my bank account in the US and I'll transfer RMB into your wife's bank account in China. Thanks for the offer cuzzin Bill. I was just informed that she has it rented and now she is on her way to rent her house in Jiujiang so this will be way more than enough so we won't need to send money to her account in China. I tells ya she is one heckuva woman!! He's lying, Bill. He don't trust ya. Damned it! I guess that investment in the Bernie Madoff Road to Riches audio book was a waste of money.

No, we cannot simply retool our factories and put people back to work making the cheap crap we buy from China. That is simply the idea of the uninformed masses. We also cannot simply slap a 50% tarrif on Chinese goods. Aside from WTO factors, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot since China exports a lot of US-company-produced goods. Why do people always try for simple-minded solutions to complex issues? WTO is one of the cornerstones of the one world government gang. When we have the one world government the uninformed masses will become slaves to it. Which will eventually lead to rebellion and destruction of human civilization. Ok, I guess the crucial question now is ... Is there any whacko conspiracy theory that you do NOT subscribe to?

No, we cannot simply retool our factories and put people back to work making the cheap crap we buy from China. That is simply the idea of the uninformed masses. We also cannot simply slap a 50% tarrif on Chinese goods. Aside from WTO factors, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot since China exports a lot of US-company-produced goods. Why do people always try for simple-minded solutions to complex issues?

Unfortunately, the prevailing air currents are in the wrong direction. But you might try a bottle w/stopper. If a message in a bottle is all there is, then someone needs to come up with a way to pay off the Chinese banks and provide this service online for people. Ya busy? Not too busy to accept money! You can use PayPal. Or, Cuzzin Ord, just put the money in my bank account in the US and I'll transfer RMB into your wife's bank account in China.

On what do you base this observation on? Prehaps it was based on the comment in the article itself: The newspaper said six million Chinese women were believed involved in the sex trade, but other independent estimates have put the figure twice as high. I'd like to see these other independent estimates. Smells a little like those WMDs in Iraq. I don't know the exact number but there seem to be a hell of a lot of them .... this past weekend they even called my hotel room at 10pm and asked if I wanted a "massageeee" WITH my wife in the room. They never found any WMD but I don't think anyone has ever been in China and never seen with their eyes a prosititute unless they are naive or blind. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2010-...ent_9909738.htm It is not certain how many prostitutes are there in the country - the number ranges from 3-4 million to more than 10 million. http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemi...amp;subcatid=76 The sex industry is growing rapidly. Even small cities have their own entertainment districts. Estimates of the numbers of prostitutes in China range from 3 million according to officials estimates by the government to 10 million by the U.S. State Department to 20 million by one Chinese economist. By one count there around 1 million full-time prostitutes in China and perhaps 8 to 10 million more that sometimes accept money and gifts for sex. One marker of the booming sex industry in Shenzhen¡ªboth in terms of prostitutes and misstresses¡ªis the high number of children born out-of-wedlock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_...public_of_China http://news.asianstudies.dk/2009/07/prostitution-in-china/ The number of prostitutes in China was estimated to be 4 million in an official Chinese report from 1997. A less conservative, but perhaps more realistic number of prostitutes in China is estimated to be roughly 20 million. http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/prostitution-in-china.htm Some researchers have conservatively estimated that there are as many as 10 million active prostitutes in China at any given time who contribute as much as five percent to the country¡¯s annual GDP as most of the earned income, although not taxed, goes back into the economy through consumption. (Dougherty, 2006). http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/6984685.html There are between 4 million and 10 million female sex workers on the Chinesemainland catering regularly to more than 6 percent of the male population aged 20 to 64, according to a paper published in 2009 by Wan Shaoping, a professor at the Sichuan Institute of Dermatology and STD Prevention in Chengdu, and Professor Joseph T.F. Lau, director of the Chinese University of Hong Kong's center for epidemiology and biostatistics. I don't think there is anybody who doubts that there are prostitutes. I'd just like to see some credible statistics on how many other than dozens of estimates with ranges anywhere from 1 million to 20 million+. Then there is the definition of "prostitution" itself. If, as suggested, it includes those "that sometimes accept money and gifts for sex," then I'm afraid over 1/2 the female population in the US is a whore.

True. Thank you for pointing that out.

On what do you base this observation on? Prehaps it was based on the comment in the article itself: The newspaper said six million Chinese women were believed involved in the sex trade, but other independent estimates have put the figure twice as high. I'd like to see these other independent estimates. Smells a little like those WMDs in Iraq.

So I guess that no one really knows. That, my dear, Cuzin Ord, is probably one of the only intelligent observations on this whole thread.

No, I am being entertained ... ... by dimwhitted staticians that equate what in total amounts to probably a grand total of 100 days in China and being propositioned at most 6 times per day with an observation that there must, as a result, be much more than 6 million prostitutes in China. You've been watching too many soap operas. P.S. Just to clarify any doubt, that was a barb. Feel free to enter whiney little bitch mode now.

Right, I meant Kim's statement that 6 million is "extremely low." Still, that female population needs to be narrowed down considerably since it includes females who could not possibly be included as possible candidates. What is the female population in the age range of, say, 16 - 50 years old?

Not sure about all cities, but it is legal in Beijing and Guangzhou. I'm pretty sure it is, although the DL test questions didn't cover - it seems to be more of a given, than an actual law. I'm guessing that it falls under a more general category. I have yet to see a policeman engaged in any actual traffic enforcement or direction, other than for schools. I also did not have it in the DL questions and our shuttle bus driver said it was against the law. I've seen him break a lot of US driving laws but he has never turned right at a red light. Then again it is not very often the traffic allows it since we are riding during rush hour traffic. What I could find on the internet said it was legal unless there was a specific red arrow light. So I guess it is legal ... not that it seems to matter what the rules are when it comes to actual driving conditions. I have never seen a policeman engaged in actual traffice enforcement except for drunk driving checks. I have however seen policemen (with the nice clean new white gloves) directing traffic at some major intersections. Traffic seems to flow much smoother when they are not around ... The whole right on red thing was introduced only a few years ago. Many people still don't know it.

On what do you base this observation on?

Gotta give the lady points for creativity. And for at least not parking in the middle of the sidewalk. Of the very few things that piss me off in China, near the top must be the way people park. And don't even get me started about "right on red after stop". Is "right on red" even legal in China? I thought it was not even allowed by the law ... though that means nothing in regards to driving in China. Not sure about all cities, but it is legal in Beijing and Guangzhou.

Gotta give the lady points for creativity. And for at least not parking in the middle of the sidewalk. Of the very few things that piss me off in China, near the top must be the way people park. And don't even get me started about "right on red after stop".

People in Beijing generally park their cars like retarded chimps anyhow.

Apples and oranges. The overwhelming majority of industrial workers in China have little to no education and even less real-world skills to bring to the table while those who labor at KFCs are usually university students or those starting to get along in years that have work experience. There's also the time-honored principle of supply and demand. It is extremely difficult to retain quality staff at fast food establishments while staffing in industry is relatively easy. I pay our "aiyi" double what I pay our typical factory worker. If I paid each what they were, relatively speaking, worth the "aiyi" would get 3 or 4 times more than the laborer. Applying Western standards to Chinese reality is often like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. I hear what you are saying but you are are also mixing apples/oranges and missing my point. I am not talking about operators in a garment factory. In the west we usually employ chemical plant operators after extensive training/testing (they maybe only have a HS degree but they have to establish an ability in math/science to even get into the hiring pool) and we have extensive control control/safety systems. Here in China we employ people with less education and training than those at KFC. One of the main reasons for this is because of the low pay the chemical companies want to provide their operators. From a safety standpoint something is amiss here when one compares China to the West. You must be confused or need to have your vision tested. Who is talking about garment workers? I employ somewhere north of 15k individuals here and approximately 2/3 of them are in petro-chemical factories. An extremely low turnover rate coupled with the fact that our major competitor is a state-owned company means we couldn't find industry experienced new-hires if we wanted to. In spite of that we start pay at the industry average in China of approximately 1.1k RMB basic salary -- and we beat new applicants away with a stick. To remain price competitive, labor costs are tightly controlled. Fortunately supply and demand assists in the endeavor. We do not hire university graduates as general plant operators because unless you hire the best and the brightest from quality schools, you basically end up with a moron with an attitude who thinks they are Einstein compared to a HS graduate (or less) who has no attitude and is trainable. Who in their right mind would think to apply this concept to petro-chemical plants in the US? Safety is always a concern, but our safety record here is running far ahead of our plants in the US. Part of the reason is that we break down one job position into three or four (which is extremely common in China) so no one individual works above their capacity. Foremen here have fewer people to supervise than in the States. So your theory of safety suffering because of the disparity in worker quality just flew out the window, too. On a side note, the government has started informing companies that we should expect labor costs to increase about 35% over the next few years. We're not too worried about that.

Apples and oranges. The overwhelming majority of industrial workers in China have little to no education and even less real-world skills to bring to the table while those who labor at KFCs are usually university students or those starting to get along in years that have work experience. There's also the time-honored principle of supply and demand. It is extremely difficult to retain quality staff at fast food establishments while staffing in industry is relatively easy. I pay our "aiyi" double what I pay our typical factory worker. If I paid each what they were, relatively speaking, worth the "aiyi" would get 3 or 4 times more than the laborer. Applying Western standards to Chinese reality is often like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Haven't seen any US media links, but all the links so far seem to state that he threatened to burn the school to the ground. Time have changed and making a comment like that -- even in the heat of anger -- signifies total retardation. Unless the guy actually went home afterwards and started filling cans with gasoline, they'll probably end up just booting his lame, retarded ass out of the States.

I assume you have some hard statistical evidence that supports your statement about poverty levels? That Foshan has a lower number of people living in poverty has nothing to do with anything other than the cost of living in Foshan can be remarkably lower than it is in GZ -- for now. The original inhabitants of Foshan -- the farmers on small plots -- are still earning far less than the Foshan average salary of under 1,500 RMB -- less than half the GZ average salary. The basic economy in Foshan still relies mainly on local retail sales and housing with a growing industrial presence. http://www.investfoshan.gov.cn/eng/enindustry_1.htm http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/English/e2004/e200410/p54.htm http://special.lifeofguangzhou.com/2008/no...836854858.shtml Nice links. How do you suppose they are relevant to the conversation?

There has to be some confusion here. Where do you see "constant barbs" here? "I assume you have some hard statistical evidence that supports your statement about poverty levels? That Foshan has a lower number of people living in poverty has nothing to do with anything other than the cost of living in Foshan can be remarkably lower than it is in GZ -- for now." "The original inhabitants of Foshan -- the farmers on small plots -- are still earning far less than the Foshan average salary of under 1,500 RMB -- less than half the GZ average salary. The basic economy in Foshan still relies mainly on local retail sales and housing with a growing industrial presence." Why you are reading more into this than actually exists is beyond me, but when I exchange "constant barbs" I think history shows it is nothing like what is written above. For example, if I wanted to smack someone don't you think that instead of "I assume you have hard statistical evidence that supports your statement about poverty levels" I would have written something more closely related to "WTF are you talking about? Weld that dunce cap to your pointy little head, please." Writing the first phrase and not the second signifies, IMO, that perhaps Kim has a point, but I'd like to see where he gets his data from because I am just not sure about it. So, please do not go on imagining things. I promise that when I do make a "constant barb" there will be no doubt in anybody's mind what happened. I promise.

I assume you have some hard statistical evidence that supports your statement about poverty levels? That Foshan has a lower number of people living in poverty has nothing to do with anything other than the cost of living in Foshan can be remarkably lower than it is in GZ -- for now. The original inhabitants of Foshan -- the farmers on small plots -- are still earning far less than the Foshan average salary of under 1,500 RMB -- less than half the GZ average salary. The basic economy in Foshan still relies mainly on local retail sales and housing with a growing industrial presence.

Poverty is alive and well in Foshan. What you don't see so much is the wide disparity that you see in GZ.