GDBILL

Don't quit your day job just in case vigilantism can't pay the bills. When privacy legislation prevents even State Department officials from revealing details of consular decisions in individual matters, it's highly unlikely I am stupid enough as you suggest to tell someone's employer that the employee's passport was revoked and run the risk that this causes issues for my wife. If I thought the guy was dangerous I'd alert the PSB to a potential illegal alien issue. And if the issue were really serious then the State Department will see go through the Chinese authorities to seek his return to the US. Listening to the guy last night for a couple of hours has left me with the impression that he may not really be a bad guy.

I agree. People need to support the children they create and just can't run away from their responsibility. Still, there are cases -- hopefully not many -- where the non-custodial parent gets taken for a ride and / or ends up in arrears on their child support payments through no fault of their own. I have friends from as far back as high school who have been caught up in the whole child support / family court machine and from what they've described it is not a pretty picture. I have a colleague who was actually indicted by a grand jury for willful failure to pay child support because of a moronic family court judge who just couldn't understand the impossibility of being a father to a child born 2 years after the last time he had slept with his wife. So, I think ... There but for the grace of God ... and in such an emotionally charged issue somehow passport denial seems like an option that is just too extreme. There just has to be a better way.

Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is. It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything. What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too. Having been through a divorce in the USA (with children/child support/custody issues) it does not surprise me at all (either that they do it or that the dollar limit is so low). In fact, while I am not trying to defend this guy, it would not surprise me if the back child support amount is only "alleged to be owed" meaning the ex-spouse only has to file a claim for back child support not that it has been proven the person in actually in arrears. The state cannot certify to the Department of Human Services that over $2500 is owed unless there is a child support order issued by a judge. That requires a hearing, doesn't it? In many states, your payment for child support must be made to the state and then the payment is recorded and then sent on to the custodial parent. If there is no record of payment, the state Child Support Enforcement office merely needs to notify the judge that payments are not being made. This triggers a bench warrant which triggers notification to the HHS which triggers the passport hold/revocation. The burden of proof is on the payer, not the gov. If an $8 an hour clerk makes a typo, you can be screwed! I see what you mean. And I'm sure what you described does happen -- though hopefully not often.

Don't assume too much. Not all of us are uninformed, rumor-mongering zealots with overactive imaginations and too much free time on their hands who don't know 1) the definition of privacy, 2) definition of fair play (i.e. innocent until proven guilty) and 3) slander. If Department of State policy is such that even their own staff cannot release this information to third parties -- even to Chinese law enforcement unless actual extradition is requested -- then why would I be dropping a dime on this guy to his employer(s) because he 1) owes child support and 2) is wanted for some as yet unknown crime? At best I would only inform the PSB that there is an illegal alien here. But after talking with the guy late last night, I am not even inclined to do that.

I met a guy in Guangzhou about ten years ago sort of in the same situation in, but he owed over $250k. Still, even then I thought it a little strange that they could deny a passport over a debt. However, when I checked I found that if the amount was something like $10k or over they could. Now the threshold has been lowered to $2500. Looks like they're serious about making people pay up. The only problem I see is that this could possibly be the beginning of a long slide down the slippery sloap to passport denial over unpaid parking tickets or library fines for overdue books.

Yes, this depends very much on reason for revocation. You don't see much information on Bejing Embassy web site. Just how to apply. However, I have found information on another Embassy's web site that shows all it takes is an arrears child support for them to retain your passport. http://libreville.usembassy.gov/passports.html It states a section of the manual, so this is SOP for all embassies. So no. You won't be seeing him in the news. It is probably nothing more than owing child support. Actually, a passport cannot be revoked or denied on the basis of child support arrears unless certified by the state to the Department of Health & Human Services that the individual is in arrears of at least $2500. Also, according to my wife, just because one is in the passport denial list does not mean that an otherwise valid passport is revoked since that decision has to be made in Washington, D.C. Also, when a passport is revoked, the SOP is to indicate that the passport is revoked, mutilate the passport and return it to the bearer. It is not normal to retain the cancelled passport passport. The link you provide is talking about "retaining" a passport in a child support case prior to obtaining the order from Washington to revoke said passport. The passport is retained pending further instructions depending on what the name check data indicates. According to my wife, the name check returned clear indication that the passport was revoked because of the passport denial program (child support). The letter issued by the consulate also states the passport was revoked and that in order to be eligible for further passport services his name must be removed by the Department of H & HS. She has also stated that it is not normal for a revoked passport to be retained and subsequently forwarded to the legal attache (i.e. FBI agent) in purely child support matters. Virtually the only time the FBI asks for the passport is if it is to be used as evidence in a criminal proescution or to assist an ongoing investigation. She later also got an e-mail and a phone call from the Legat. It is much more than a guy who owes child support. We will be reading about this in the news. About par for the course with some of the crud they have teaching in China, sadly.

Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is. It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything. What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too. Having been through a divorce in the USA (with children/child support/custody issues) it does not surprise me at all (either that they do it or that the dollar limit is so low). In fact, while I am not trying to defend this guy, it would not surprise me if the back child support amount is only "alleged to be owed" meaning the ex-spouse only has to file a claim for back child support not that it has been proven the person in actually in arrears. The state cannot certify to the Department of Human Services that over $2500 is owed unless there is a child support order issued by a judge. That requires a hearing, doesn't it?

I guess he thought if someone added the pages for him they would not do a name check ... Could be. I guess I'll find out after work when I get home just what his reaction is. It used to be they wouldn't do a name check on adding pages, but now the consulates have instructions to do a name check for everything. What kind of surprised me was that for $2500 in back child support they can nuke a passport, too.

The $35 fee is $35 too high. I agree but is it possible what they meant was he needed to deposit $35 to have an account in USD before he could convert the money to RMB -- it is not a fee but a deposit that he would then get back when converting the $85 to RMB. I ask because the first time I sent money to my BOC account I had to deposit $20 to "set-up" a USD account. My BOC account now has three sub-accounts (USD/EURO/RMB) and everytime I update my passbook I get the balance of all three accounts. Must have been a translation error. Actually, you need 15 - 20 RMB to open a passbook account in Bank of China -- or most other banks. Once you have an RMB account, it is -- by default -- also a foreign currency account. It was not a translation error but the requirement for BOC Shandong. Nor was I the only expat to go through this experience. I was asked to deposit 20 USD meaning they expected me to give them a 20 dollar bill. When I did not have that I then have to convert RMB into 20 USD then give them the 20 USD for deposit into/opening of a USD currency account. Then they converted my USD (including the opening deposit) into RMB. At least I only had about a 0.3 % spread on my 20 USD conversion/deposit/conversion Had to have been a translation error or weak hearing aid batteries. If you open an RMB account -- which by default is automatically a foreign currency account -- you only need to deposit about 15 - 20 RMB. That some people don't know this and go into BOC thinking they have to open a special account for foreign currency. Looks like that's what BOC thought you were doing. You bought US$ cash with RMB and it was entered as cash? You need a math refresher.

In my time here not much I haven't seen. Today was another of those days that make you wonder just WTF is wrong with some people. Our neighbor has a kid in high school and they pay the kid's high school English teacher, an American, $20 an hour to give the kid remedial English classes after school. So, this guy apparently has run out of passport pages and makes the comment to the kid's parents adding that he is just too busy to make it to the US Consulate during normal working hours to get pages added. So, our neighbor, the sap that he is, says he has a friend who maybe can help him get pages added outside of normal business hours. The neighbor calls me and asks if my wife can give the guy a hand to get his pages added. Neighborly as I am, I asl my wife since she is in Beijing this month and she takes the passport into the Embassy this morning to have people in ACS add some pages. Problem is that prior to any transaction with a passport, a name check must be done. Bingo! Passport had been revoked. Past due child support. Any arrears over $2500 automatically triggers passport denial and possible revocation. But wife tells me that it must be much more serious than simply owing child support. Generally, she says, when the passport shows up as revoked they are told to cancel passport and return it to bearer. This time the instructions were to retain passport and forward to Department via legal attache. That generally means there are also some fairly serious warrants outstanding and they're retaining the passport as evidence or as part of an ongoing investigation. We'll be seeing this guy in the news soon. Shouldn't be surprised, I guess.

The $35 fee is $35 too high. I agree but is it possible what they meant was he needed to deposit $35 to have an account in USD before he could convert the money to RMB -- it is not a fee but a deposit that he would then get back when converting the $85 to RMB. I ask because the first time I sent money to my BOC account I had to deposit $20 to "set-up" a USD account. My BOC account now has three sub-accounts (USD/EURO/RMB) and everytime I update my passbook I get the balance of all three accounts. Must have been a translation error. Actually, you need 15 - 20 RMB to open a passbook account in Bank of China -- or most other banks. Once you have an RMB account, it is -- by default -- also a foreign currency account.

All she needs is to have them put a little rubber stamp that says in Chinese "Divorced" next to the part where it has her marital status. She'll probably have to bring her divorce certificate -- a little book somewhat similar to the marriage certificate. No need to have any of the others removed from her hukou book. In fact, that would be even more difficult since you can never remove anybody unless they are transferred to another hukou book.

Yes, the 1% spread is to be avoided. For those in CHina on a temporary basis, it might be difficult to avoid exchanging US$ cash for RMB, but when here for the long term, you develop alternative methods. Especially when exchanging large amounts, the 1% spread can add up. If I were to need a large amount of cash, I'd write myself a check and deposit it in Bank of China. Got to make sure that when it clears you don't withdraw the US$ as cash and then exchange for RMB. To avoid the spread you'd need to exchange the US$ right within your bank account while still classified as "hui". If you need to use an overseas credit card, Discover is the best. You can use your Discover card at any merchant in China that accepts credit cards -- domestic or international cards. The exchange rate is very good and there is never an international transaction fee. If you hit the cashback promotions right, you can even wind up with 5% rebates. Not sure how Discover card measures up with cash advances though.

You must be confused. In addition to wholesale exchange rates obtained by MasterCard / Visa / Discover / AmEx networks, there are at least half a dozen retail exchange rates. Oanda goves you but, I believe, two and when it comes to non-freely convertible currencies such as the RMB, these two fail to give the complete picture. Perhaps that's why Oanda has that little disclaimer at the bottom of their page. Since the RMB is not freely convertible, you may have difficulties taking US$ into your local Bank of America branch and obtaining RMB. As such, currency exchange rates involving the RMB are set by the Chinese State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE). Now, unless Oanda has just recently purchased SAFE, it is virtually impossible for you to exchange $1.00 cash for 6.8164 RMB or whatever other "buy" rate Oanda should list at any bank that exchanges RMB. At this moment, when you give $1.00 to the teller, you will get only 6.7573 RMB. If you want to buy US$, you would have to give the teller 6.8393 RMB to obtain $1.00 in cash. You may use a different math than the rest of us, but that gives a spread greater than 1%. There are many different exchange rates and for what we might term "retail" rates, there are at least 6 different exchange rates set by SAFE and used by banks when conducting currency exchange operations. Amongst the different rates as of 10 a.m. this morning, Beijing time, are: 1. The "buy" rate currently @ 6.8119; 2. The "sell" rate currently @ 6.8393; 3. The "middle" rate currently @ 6.826; and 4. The "cash" rate currently @ 6.7573. The Chinese break down foreign currency such as US$ into two categories relevant to our discussion: 1. US$ cash is called, obviously, "cash" or "chao" ( ³® ); and 2. US$ in all other forms that do not necessitate cross-border movements of currency is called "forex" or "hui" ( »ã ). If you take $1.00 in cash and exchange it for RMB, you will get only 6.7573 RMB. You might try asking Oanda to make up the difference for you. If you want to buy $1.00 in cash, you will need to give the teller 6.8393 RMB. You should be able to handle the math. US$ that come into China via routes such as bank wires or a check deposits are called "forex" and $1.00 forex will get you the "middle" rate or, on occasion, even the "sell" rate upon selling that $1.00 forex. When you want to turn your RMB into US$ forex, typically that will be handled at the "middle" rate or sometimes the "buy" rate. There are perfectly reasonable and logical reasons why SAFE handles cash and forex US$ with different exchange rates, but we'll save that for after you finish Foreign Currency Exchange 101 and are ready for Foreign Currency Exchange 202. In any rate, my mistake was stating that you get more RMB by exchanging cash than by using BOAs ATM card in a CCB ATM. In fact, the exchange rate is more favorable using BOA / CCB than by selling your US$ cash to the bank. However, the exchange rate is more favorable when you deposit a US$ check or have an incoming wire transfer into your Chinese bank account.

Pending *CCB CCBGUANGXIBRANCH ATM 04/04 #00000099... Debit Pending -$146.94 This is from my B of A account in the USA for a 1000RMB cash withdrawal this morning. That's an exchange rate of 6.8055 - Oanda gives the exchange rate at 6.8164. Hardly a 1% spread. According to Visa's Plus and MasterCard's Cirrus, there is an approximate 1% spread built into all exchange rates. Somewhere the network is earning 1% whether or not one "sees" it. What you obviously don't understand is that you are taking the retail rate and BOA / Plus / Cirrus operate with a wholesale rate. In any event, the exchange rate using BOA / CCB is not as favorable as exchanging cash over the counter. If you had deposited a check you would also get an even more favorable exchange rate -- currently about 6.83.

If there's no hurry, sending them a check is a good way to go. The only drawback is that you can only cash it at main branches of Bank of China and it takes sometimes up to a month for the check to clear. The good news is that the service fees rarely total more than 50 RMB. Also, the US$ are exchanged into RMB for you at a higher exchange rate than if you just went in to exchange US$ cash. Another decent method is sending your relative a Bank of America ATM card. BOA has a fee-free deal with China Construction Bank so there are no bank fees. There is, however, a 1% spread built into the exchange rate.

If his ultimate destination was the US, he'd have to get a fantastic price per box to even cover his bail. Things could be a little better now, though.

There's an orange jumpsuit with your name on it just waiting for you when they do open your luggage and check. There's a limit of something like two cartons. Over that and you have customs problems and also state revenue agents looking for you because you've evaded state taxes on tobacco products. Still, the chances of getting caught are probably minimal.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, perhaps. Interesting that they didn't mention visa requirements. They did mention naturalization, but I'm wondering how that would work since 1) there is no 5-year requirement to become a Chinese citizen and 2) they usually don't approve applications anyhow. I agree with Kyle in that a 5-year follow-up would be nice.

Unless you are looking for a job as an English teacher, burger flipper or are a nuclear scientist willing to work for $500 per month, this so-called job fair was, is and always will be a joke.

Does it provide DIRECT links to porno sites? I only get sites that list OTHER porno sites. AltaVista generates an entirely different listing. Hmmm ... everything you always wanted to know about finding good porn ...

Or there would be even more country folks migrating to the cities, creating a bigger problem of too many people with no work. That'd be just the tip of the iceberg. There would be problems with the government retirement fund, medical care, education and also security ... as well as other possible issues. I'm all for free movement and such like we are used to here in the US. I can see that may not be suitable for China at this time. Yup. I can see them maybe eliminating the hukou system or at least not using it to discourage migration at some future point, but I think that future point is a long ways off. Funny thing ... Japan still has a hukou system to this day. It isn't used -- AFAIK -- to control migration rather to establish lineage of descent / citizenship. One purpose of Chinese hukou is to do pretty much the same.

Idealistic ... but in a perfect world it would work. However, in China if you did not restrict the human tide the country would be totally FUBAR. First of all, hukou does not physically restrict freedom of movement. Your normal rural resident is free to go anywhere they want and try to find a job or pursue whatever opportunities they want. Hukou does reduce the incentive for movement, though. Those few with skills that add value will be able to survive and possibly better themselves as millions before them have done. Those that haven't any marketable skills will not and it is those that hukou encourages not to migrate. Hukou restricts who can have access to government social services such as government housing and social insurance, primary and secondary education and subsidized health care. It also means that there will be no increased costs for public safety and transportation services to support a huge influx of people. Social inequality. The buzz word of the feeble-minded. Progress is never fast enough for those on the bottom and China is no exception. Encouraging mass migration to urban centers is going to make everybody socially equal -- equally screwed. As it is there isn't enough money to pay for compulsory education in the cities -- often 50 kids per classroom. Add a few million more kids to the mix is going to be great, right? Ever been to a Chinese hospital to see a doctor? Ever been on the subway? A bus?

Or there would be even more country folks migrating to the cities, creating a bigger problem of too many people with no work. That'd be just the tip of the iceberg. There would be problems with the government retirement fund, medical care, education and also security ... as well as other possible issues.

First you need to define what "good" is. A lot depends on how much money you want to earn, how many hours you want to work per week, whether you need benefits such as work visa & paid vacations, which city / province you want to work in, whether you want to work for a government or a private school and also what type of teaching you are interested in such as little kids, teenagers or adults. A lot also depends on one's nationality, age, race, education and teaching qualifications.