whome?

A very interesting article. Thanks for the link. I found the last two statements insiteful: It's a more complicated society, it's an incredibly confident society, and it still has 800 million people mired in intense rural poverty. And they seem to have come up with a formula that, while it violates every Western notion of how a country should develop and become rich, works better than most of the formulas Westerners have had for the last 40 years.

She feel better yet?

It's much more than feeble to compare poverty that exists in the US with that you can find in China. -- That is your personal opinion because it appears YOU do not give a damn about the situation or poor in the USA. And it does appear that the government isn't overly concerned about the issues until it threatens the Party's monopoly on power. That said, nobody really knows for sure exactly what actual concern the government does have unless you are privy to the inner workings of the State Council -- and anybody here who thinks they are is delusional. -- I dont see much of a difference between this and the concern over power the two party system exhibts in the USA.

I finally had time to read this article... I think you totally nailed the author's motivations and baggage. I feel a little sorry for this guy. When he didn¡¯t get the special recognition he thought he deserved at the university, he set off to find the ¡°real¡± China. Through black-and-white reasoning he deluded himself into thinking that, if the well-off people were jerks, then the poor people must be loving natives who want nothing more than to open their homes and hearts to this "laowai yeye" and listen, enthralled, to his humble descriptions of all his amazing travels and academic accomplishments. The way he talks about poor people in China reminds me of Margaret Mead and her portrayal of Samoans, which was also based on the experience of an outsider (in both cases, one who probably made the people feel like they were being scrutinized by an alien) who couldn¡¯t understand most of what was going on. Overall the main point of this article seems to be that the author is such a cool guy -- he sees himself as "going where no laowai has gone before¡± (and from what I can tell this was his other motivation for going there: bragging rights). It is annoying to read his claims that he ¡°lived there¡± or that he really experienced the poverty that surrounded him (e.g., he says something like ¡°I¡¯m poorer than my students!¡±). For this guy the poor people in Henan are a caricature. They¡¯re the selfless and accepting natives he needs to create in his mind to contrast with the privileged and stand-offish well-to-do who ¡°forced him out¡± of China. I feel bad for him if this is the way he needs to understand the complexities of China¡­ I never said that I was in love with the author or agreed with his philosophy on life in China or anywhere else for that matter of fact but what I got out of it was how the people lived and where they and the conditions that they lived in. But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right? Larry But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. No no one denies that there are not a lot of poor people in China. But what is the point. You do not think in the last 30 years there have been no improvement for the quality of life in China? Do you think if the Chinese government became a USA democracy the poor people would go ahead overnite? There are almost 40 million people in the USA who are living below the poverty line (13.2% in 2008). My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right? This is the standard party line when someone has even a slightly different viewpoint of China. Some look at the glass half-full. Others look at it half-empty. I am not an english teacher but I do work in China. Can you explain your reasoning as to why people who donot 100% agree with your viewpoint on China must be english teachers? Your grasp on poverty statistics is weak. While approximately 13% of the US population lives in poverty, poverty in the US is defined as a family of three having an income lower that $18,310 per year. By that standard, probably 90% of China lives in poverty. A common international standard used to define poverty is roughly $1.20 a day. In the US, UN figures put the US at about 2% and China at anywhere from 6 - 20% -- with the higher percentage being likely more accurate. Again, your comparison of poverty in the US with that in China is feeble. Very feeble. Not feeble...it is just that I am fully aware of something called "cost of living". $1.20 a day goes a lot further in China than it does in the USA. Do you think a family of three can live in decent conditions on a salary of $18,310/year?? Here is a quote from the World Bank regarding absolute and relative poverty: That is, even in the wealthiest countries, the poor may not be in absolute poverty (the most basic of provisions may be obtainable for many) or their level of poverty may be a lot higher than those in developing countries, but in terms of their standing in society, their relative poverty can also have serious consequences such as deteriorating social cohesion, increasing crime and violence, and poorer health. I was not interested in comparing absolute poverty, on the $1.25/day standard, in the USA to poverty in China. I was making the point that our "glass house" in the USA is not so clean either. This is exactly how the World Bank describes it. Here is another quote from the World Bank regarding the income gap in the US: The U.S. itself also has the largest gap and inequality between rich and poor compared to all the other industrialized nations. For example, the top 1% receives more money than the bottom 40% and the gap is the widest in 70 years. Furthermore, in the last 20 years while the share of income going to the top 1% has increased, it has decreased for the poorest 40%. Here is another interesting article regarding world poverty for you: http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/pov...facts-and-stats A quote from the article: Accounting for the increased population between 1981 and 2005, the poverty rate has, however, fallen by about 25%. While this at least sounds encouraging, it masks regional variations, and perhaps most glaringly the impact of China: China¡¯s poverty rate fell from 85% to 15.9%, or by over 600 million people China accounts for nearly all the world¡¯s reduction in poverty Excluding China, poverty fell only by around 10% As a result, the World Bank feels that while China is on target to reach the Millennium Development Goals to reduce poverty and tackle various other issues, most other countries are not. So it does appear that there has been some improvement over the years in China using the China Model.

Which is exactly the reason many chinese women have trouble understanding why a divorced person (man or woman) in the USA has to have so much contact with the ex-spouse especially when there are children involved. In China once the divorce is done and the ex-couple goes there separate way there is very little contact in contrast to the constant fighting over wanting more money that goes on in the USA.

Did you ever get the GUZ number? I think you will not hear from the consulate until you have this number to reference your case.

Not while in Nanjing. that a 10+ day stop over to see some old friends which was quite a bit cleaner. Sorry to not hook up with you. I spoke mostly of Hebei (southwest of BJ) also in the small back villages in Yunnan between Dali and Lijiang. The parts of Shenyang/Fushun I have visited were clearly closer to the dirty Hebei, while Guangzhou/Shenzhen were not. A friend from Fushun said that they always thought Fushun was a small and dirty city until they went with me on a trip to Hebei area I described... Fushun suddenly seemed to rate higher in their estimation Ok now I can understand. You can see the same in small back villages outside of 3rd tier cities in Hubei. My future sister-in-law's parents live in one of these villages. We got to spend two days there last Chinese New Year. We did not hot water from the newly installed solar heater....

In 8 months in China you only saw a third world country? Nanjing was like this? Go about 25 miles north of Lake Charles LA to a few pool halls, bars, and communities on the river/swamp area there --- it would make you savor the experience also.

Congrats Robert!!! Hope things keep moving fast for you....

I finally had time to read this article... I think you totally nailed the author's motivations and baggage. I feel a little sorry for this guy. When he didn¡¯t get the special recognition he thought he deserved at the university, he set off to find the ¡°real¡± China. Through black-and-white reasoning he deluded himself into thinking that, if the well-off people were jerks, then the poor people must be loving natives who want nothing more than to open their homes and hearts to this "laowai yeye" and listen, enthralled, to his humble descriptions of all his amazing travels and academic accomplishments. The way he talks about poor people in China reminds me of Margaret Mead and her portrayal of Samoans, which was also based on the experience of an outsider (in both cases, one who probably made the people feel like they were being scrutinized by an alien) who couldn¡¯t understand most of what was going on. Overall the main point of this article seems to be that the author is such a cool guy -- he sees himself as "going where no laowai has gone before¡± (and from what I can tell this was his other motivation for going there: bragging rights). It is annoying to read his claims that he ¡°lived there¡± or that he really experienced the poverty that surrounded him (e.g., he says something like ¡°I¡¯m poorer than my students!¡±). For this guy the poor people in Henan are a caricature. They¡¯re the selfless and accepting natives he needs to create in his mind to contrast with the privileged and stand-offish well-to-do who ¡°forced him out¡± of China. I feel bad for him if this is the way he needs to understand the complexities of China¡­ I never said that I was in love with the author or agreed with his philosophy on life in China or anywhere else for that matter of fact but what I got out of it was how the people lived and where they and the conditions that they lived in. But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right? Larry But it seems as though you are one of those people that are determined to deny that there are poor people in China that live a very meager life. Most of you guys will proclaim that there are a few of them living in caves in very remote mountain area and that there is only two or three hundred of them right. No no one denies that there are not a lot of poor people in China. But what is the point. You do not think in the last 30 years there have been no improvement for the quality of life in China? Do you think if the Chinese government became a USA democracy the poor people would go ahead overnite? There are almost 40 million people in the USA who are living below the poverty line (13.2% in 2008). My guess is that you were an english teacher in China straight out of college is that right? This is the standard party line when someone has even a slightly different viewpoint of China. Some look at the glass half-full. Others look at it half-empty. I am not an english teacher but I do work in China. Can you explain your reasoning as to why people who donot 100% agree with your viewpoint on China must be english teachers?

Haha ... maybe ... all times seem fast compared to second half of 2008.

13.2% of people in USA in 2008 are below the poverty line.....evidently they are poor people in China (much more than we should expect or accept from the greatest country on the earth) in the USA.

The real sad thing is the pollution is not all by 100% owned chinese companies...

Here is a link to exchange rates so you can verify the peg starting in July 2008. http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/hist2008.html This article and the thinking is why it always makes me laugh to hear the Chinese government complain about the US on any free trade issues (such as the Chinese tires). They act so indignant when in fact they are more guilty of protectionism than anybody else in the world. Of course we cant say to much since they own so much of our debt. This also goes to show, as we were discussing in the other now locked thread, that the chinese government certainly feels that exports are a very, if not the most, important part of their economy.

Three things: 1. This is the offical statement regarding proof of legal residence in China for purposes of DCF filing: However, if you do not have a valid Chinese "Foreigner Residence Permit", "Z" work visa, ¡°X¡± student visa, or other long-term official authorization permitting you to live in China, you should file your immediate relative petitions with the nearest immigration office (DHS/USCIS) in your home state in the U.S. Absent evidence of residence in China, such as your valid Chinese "Foreigner Residence Permit", this office will not adjudicate an immediate relative petition, and jurisdiction rests with the office where you have legal residence. From people I know it seems that GZ will only accept what is written above while BJ has accepted those with an L-Visa that have been in China continuously for 6 months or longer. GZ tends to be more strict in following the published rules/guidelines than BJ in my experience (and others). If you wish to DCF in GZ you can try with a L-Visa but I don't think you will be successful. However you live there and it would not take long to try. If they don't accept it you can use the same paperwork to then file the I-130 in the USA. Best of luck. 2. The Z work visa, from my experience, requires the company you work for to submit your qualifications to the local government in order for them to issue a "Confirmation document for inviting foreign expert" and "the Invitation Letter". You then have to provide these documents to the Chinese consulate in the USA to get a Z Visa that is marked single entry valid for 6 months. You are then required to apply for a Foreign Residence Permit at the local government within 30 days of entering China on your Z-Visa. However I have heard there are Z-Visa that are just like an F-Visa (multiple entry valid for 1 year but with no stay duration limit). I have never know anyone to get one like this and the Chinese USA consulate websites do not reference a Z-Visa like this but maybe this is an option. 3. Randy is correct about the term DCF.

Many times the dispute is over how much they are compensated. Yea..they will be forced to settle and they will be compensated...and there will be disagreement on the fairness of the compensation... 600 yuan (90 USD) a year/person for 20 years..... That sounds about right. In Guangzhou the government had to compensate a whole bunch of people whose homes in the center of Guangzhou near what they call Beijing Lu. What very little new residential property there is in that area is very expensive, but the government only offered them something like 2,000 RMB per m2 -- only a fraction of what it would cost to buy anything in that area. People complained and held demonstrations ... finally they were told they'd be given either the 2k RMB / m2 or a new apartment -- in practically a small farming village way on the outskirts of Guangzhou. They were given 72 hours to decide before the army would "help" them clear out. Gone were the good old days when you can get the people in the 60th birthday parade to help out moving the residents. In big cities, unless you are really, really connected, relocation risk is something no private developer can afford to take. On the other hand, our relocation in Sichuan was too sucessful and we got burnt. We negotiated with the local residents on the amount of compensation, set up a escrow account with the government and send people out to deliver a copy of the settlement agreement to each resident and posted the settlement amount on their doors. This is to ensure transparency and that no money goes into the side pockets of you know who. It was too sucessful, right before the earth quake. Well, despite a force Majoure clause, it is politically impossible to ask the living or the dead for our money back. In another province, our relocation went pretty well as well. We build buildings right on site and allow the residents being relocated to select which building they want to move in, at 1.5 times the space they used to have (of course we get the benefit of higher plot ratio). They traded in their little huts for space in a mordern apartment, use some extra space to rent out to generate cash income. If you treat them fairly, things will work out, except in Hainan. In Hainan, we negotiated a compensation basis and then, a few days later when we returned to survey the land. It was jam packed with newly planted coconut trees. I mean, there is no way those trees can grow at that density. Maybe I was wrong. We wished them a good harvest of coconuts and moved on. This was the way relocation, when old smaller apartments are torn down and new high rises are built, was explained to me by several people including my wife. However I did not want to post it since I had no confirmaiton. Thanks for the information. This is by far the exception rather than the norm. Most relocations are handled directly by the government and not by the land developer. And the people getting relocated get the stinky end of the stick. This was the way I was told it was "required" to be done. How it actually works I dont know. However a local USA lawyer here (in China off/on for 30 years) verified to me last night that in this city that is how it works. I am sure it verifies all over China.

Many times the dispute is over how much they are compensated. Yea..they will be forced to settle and they will be compensated...and there will be disagreement on the fairness of the compensation... 600 yuan (90 USD) a year/person for 20 years..... That sounds about right. In Guangzhou the government had to compensate a whole bunch of people whose homes in the center of Guangzhou near what they call Beijing Lu. What very little new residential property there is in that area is very expensive, but the government only offered them something like 2,000 RMB per m2 -- only a fraction of what it would cost to buy anything in that area. People complained and held demonstrations ... finally they were told they'd be given either the 2k RMB / m2 or a new apartment -- in practically a small farming village way on the outskirts of Guangzhou. They were given 72 hours to decide before the army would "help" them clear out. Gone were the good old days when you can get the people in the 60th birthday parade to help out moving the residents. In big cities, unless you are really, really connected, relocation risk is something no private developer can afford to take. On the other hand, our relocation in Sichuan was too sucessful and we got burnt. We negotiated with the local residents on the amount of compensation, set up a escrow account with the government and send people out to deliver a copy of the settlement agreement to each resident and posted the settlement amount on their doors. This is to ensure transparency and that no money goes into the side pockets of you know who. It was too sucessful, right before the earth quake. Well, despite a force Majoure clause, it is politically impossible to ask the living or the dead for our money back. In another province, our relocation went pretty well as well. We build buildings right on site and allow the residents being relocated to select which building they want to move in, at 1.5 times the space they used to have (of course we get the benefit of higher plot ratio). They traded in their little huts for space in a mordern apartment, use some extra space to rent out to generate cash income. If you treat them fairly, things will work out, except in Hainan. In Hainan, we negotiated a compensation basis and then, a few days later when we returned to survey the land. It was jam packed with newly planted coconut trees. I mean, there is no way those trees can grow at that density. Maybe I was wrong. We wished them a good harvest of coconuts and moved on. This was the way relocation, when old smaller apartments are torn down and new high rises are built, was explained to me by several people including my wife. However I did not want to post it since I had no confirmaiton. Thanks for the information.

Really? Okay, take back what I said then since I'm on the east coast and they seem to do things differently here. It is very common in all of China to have to pay the entire rent up front. Usually it is for 1 year. It was very hard for us to find an apartment that only required 6 month lease.

What about the I-864 and DS-230 forms - do you have to sign and then scan them or just email the filled out forms?

Did you fill out the forms, save, print, sign and then scan or do you send them the filled out PDF forms without signature? It is unclear to me if they want the forms signed or not. When I OPT-IN to electronic processing I did not sign the DS-3032 but just sent in the filled out PDF form.

But the Chinese governement does not seem to agree with Mr. Anderson. They are pushing forward trying to reduce the country's dependence on exports. I am not too smart so I am a little confused how the Chinese government can report that exports make up 40% of GDP but Mr. Anderson calculates it is below 0%. When people recalculate numbers to support their theory it is best to not beleive them unless you see the calculations/assumptions/basis for yourself. In this article I do not see any proof. He may be right - but that is too big of a change to just beleive based on his word especially in light of the chinese government's words and actions. You are right that the infrastructure projects on-going are huge. But I doubt that only 7% of investments in China are going to export related projects. Here is a link to two different views on China's future and it economy. One is from Mr. Anderson. Both are very well thought out and written (but long) articles. My opinion, from my experience here in China, is that Mr. Pei is closer to being correct. However it is like trying to predict the stock market. Both make a strong case and good points. http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=20952

Interesting...proves things are really by the seat of the pants...I never told NVC I had an attorney. When I emailed to OPTIN the reply said their records indicated that I had an attorney and all communication on my case would have to be through them unless I removed them from my case.

Doesn't sound like he has a lot of time to spare. From what I see, the fastest train from GUZ to Shanghai (T train) takes around 16 hours. I can't believe they don't have any non-stop trains. Surly this can't be right. no fast train..they were started in the north...not expanded to the south yet...

Not to sound like an ass...but since they are married and both living in China (Guandong is not that far from Shanghai) it would not seem to be to much of a problem to get and return the passport face to face.

I have to disagree with you about China not being overly dependent on export trade. The last figures I saw said "In both 2007 and 2008, exports contributed up to 37 percent of the country's GDP, a figure that far surpasses any other big country. Such extraordinary reliance on exports continues to threaten the recovery of the Chinese economy," -- much more than 15% of GDP. This was from China Daily. Basically the chinese government agrees with GDBill. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-09/...ent_8684623.htm