Cerberus

Don, I fully agree with you. I have had the same problems as you have to a greater or lesser degree, depending on what side of the barn you stand on. The same is probably true of all marriage and individual families. Regard to the logic issue, I can't agree with you more. I don't consider myself as the dullest person in the world. However, many times, I'm left in her "dust" attempting to figure out where she went or how we got here. May I suggest a white board? There are a couple of times my wife made a drawing as a road map! They were just as confusing. She talked with me about a week ago. Stated that she decided on a new American name! "Annie!" I told her to stay in China until she recovers! Honestly; I think she was just pulling my chain. I wasn't laughing when I fell out of the computer chair though! Yep I agree with you 110% However, I'm like you! I wouldn't give it up for the world! We are still happy and going strong! Dave

To all readers, My thanks and apologies for taking two days off and leaving this issue hanging by its fingertips, on a cliff. I just need to respond to a huge flurry, E-mails, give some advice that resulted from questions I was posed, logically order my thoughts regard to what was important, and finally to get some very well deserved rest. So again, my thanks to all of your for your PMs, gracious stroking to my ego (I promise, I¡¯ll try not to let my head swell to much! LOL!). I especially want to thank Griz and LeeFisher3 for giving me the inspiration for a later posting on these same issues. However, it will be along a totally different subject line. This posting should bring both the ¡°newbies¡± to CFL and the ¡°old-timers¡± (Good Ole Boy¡¯s Club LOL!) together under the flag of the same identical issue! My God! The people that knew me from a long time ago in CFL must by now be rolling on the floor is surprise. The Cerberus that they never expected! LOL! This aside, I returned and reviewed my past postings. I knew that SOMETHING was amiss and I wasn¡¯t making the connection about. It soon became the itch I couldn¡¯t scratch for several hours. Then it hit ME! I forgot the most important thanks to the one person that helped create this thread. My own wife! Dahhhhhh! Talk about stupid! LOL! Darling, thanks for giving me the knowledge that I give to others. The trip has not always been easy. However, the good times far outweigh the bad times. My thanks Yin, for the love you have given to me as your greatest gift that can be given to a man, such as me. Now that this is aside, lets get back to it. As disclaimer to the readers and those that are just starting to read, please understand that the information contained in these writings are mine that I have gathered from a multiple amounts of reading/and research, comments made here and in other forums and most especially from a 5 year marriage to my wife, coupled with 15 years plus, visiting and/or living in the Far East. I have deliberately left out hyperlinks for readers. I personally felt feel that these writings should be used as a guide and tool to the reader. Not a wheelchair. The reader will learn far more by reading this thread and then going back and doing their own research. Remember: what works well for my family, can turn your own family and/or relationship into a three-ring circus of hurt feelings, confusion, etc, etc. When I do take a quote from someone, credit will be given to the author so that plagiarism doesn¡¯t raise its ugly head. I went back and reviewed my past posting. I believe that I may have acted rashly and mislabeled one major area and this is the Sub-topic: Cultural Values of Both Genders. I believe that it far better that I rename this right here and now as: Traditional Values of the Chinese Woman If you noticed I have eliminated the possibilities of me attempting to explain anything about men, which is about as nebulous of a subject that you could find anywhere. I would have a far easier time explaining the glide path of a sparrow in a tornado, than to explain the many varieties of men¡¯s feelings, values and cultural attitudes. I revised it also since, the values of Chinese women has been changing for a long time and age plays a huge difference in what they expect, need or desire. So I ¡°copped out!¡± LOL! There I said it. If the reader desires to call me a ¡°wishy-washy Charlie Brown;¡± the so be it! The atypical Chinese woman, today and IMHO is a mix of what commonly expects from a ¡°traditional¡± Chinese woman and a new evolving Chinese hybrid that has new ideals, goals and values. What the culture the woman is raised in (speaking from a Province-view), what are her ¡°imprinted¡± family values, what new learned behaviors she has, can be as different as night is from day. In short, there is no sure way that you can press every Chinese woman into a mold and then state: Eureka! That is my wife/fianc¨¦e! My wife is from Sichuan and was raised in a very traditional household. Therefore, she is approximately 75% traditional and 25% hybrid new Chinese woman. Most of the traditional Chinese women, including my wife intend to marry for life. Bottom Line. Unless they are a green card ride, etc, at least 80% of the Chinese women are seeking a permanent long-term relationship. The typical Chinese woman will attempt to put every ounce of her being and love into the marriage, family and their future. This seems to be a non-brainier to most of us. However, it is far trickier than this! This where people begin getting into trouble! This IMHO, is primarily due to inattention and/or empathy on their part to their Chinese wife. Hate to ruin everyone¡¯s day, but I assure you that these values never go away! The base cultural values are merely modified as they come into the new Western environment. However! You can well wager, your last damn paycheck that they are there, and remain there until death. Lets speak one of the greatest failings in a marriage that leads to divorce, East or West. MONEY! And/or lack of! The atypical Chinese woman expects her husband to be frugal and not spend money like a ¡°drunken sailor.¡± She expects the man to be the head of the household and be the primary breadwinner. She is concerned about money, since she is keenly aware that you can¡¯t eat love! She is caring for her and her family¡¯s future life. Wouldn¡¯t the reader do the same thing, if they were an intelligent? She will want to know before marriage that you are financially stable and do have some income. Ergo, why do some people get pissed when a woman wants to know these things? I have heard this inane dribble so long and generally followed with the comment like: ¡°She wants to know how much I make or what kind of job I have! She must be a gold-digger!¡± There is so much insanity and lack of reason on this point, I wonder sometimes if the inquirer isn¡¯t on drugs or just simply stupid. Of course she is checking your economic status out stupid. I mean after all you met her on AsianFriendFinder, Hot Mail, China love or wherever. I¡¯ll wager that she didn¡¯t go to HotTransientsWorld.com for a husband! You are surprised that she is not going ask this question? And even if she is enamored by your fantastic looks and charms, her family will be going over you too! There are times when I see this particular issue raised in GUZ and white slips issued. How many times have members had bare minimum monetary requirements and were turned down? For readers go back and read Jany (CFL) and the fires of Hell she went through. Yes! Definitely there was horrible abuse. However, when I first read the first time, I immediately detected control and monetary issues. The atypical Chinese woman expects the man to be the breadwinner. Circumstances can change and I was laid off one for 1 month. My wife stuck by me, gave me comfort and solace, until I obtained new employment. She was down at times and felt helpless to not be able to help out more. When I received new employment, her mood immediately perked up! This should aptly make my point and what was stated previously. As an example, when I first met my wife I was a student finishing up graduate studies. Therefore, I was a student. Yin and I began conversing via China Love. The subject of my career, our future and money came up. I recognized her fears and addressed them appropriately. I gave her links of what I would be doing, what were expected incomes of a person starting out, mid career and high levels of the career. Suffice to say, her family was more than a bit leery. To shorten the story, I arrived in China the first time and was immediately ¡°grilled¡± by the family. I assure you that love didn¡¯t arrive into the equation for this three hours discussion. They already knew this. They wanted to know about OUR future and the mixing of two cultures. So people that are students take my advice; this subject WILL come up and you better have your head out of your ¡°four-pointed contact¡± and have good answers ready. You think that the VOs in GUZ are bad? Wait until you meet a Chinese woman¡¯s family. BTW, you want to see some really rough shit regard to visas and VOs? Go to the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and even Mexico forum. GUZ, is a walk through the park compared to them! In these places you better have your collective crap together! In closing the woman desires to take care of the home, sometimes her own career and her family and this is the job she accepts. Men! Guess what your job is? Compatibility. The atypical Chinese woman once she is married, or is committing to a serious relationship, wants to be with or around that person constantly. Men, if you don¡¯t like touchy feeling and/or mushy stuff, you better get your act together! I¡¯ll explain further in a minute. She wants to not only wants to love, but also she wants the love returned to her. LOL! Sometimes, the women can be a bit greedy about this particular two-way street, gentlemen. However I digress. Happy Chinese women want to spend as much time as they can with you. This includes, beaches, parks, theaters, woods, libraries, or very simple walks with her. Even a dull routine night at home watching television or whatever and saying a single woman, there are times when she will get up to get something and will touch you is passing. At the risk of psychological babble this if referred to as ¡°tactile stroking.¡± To the average layperson, it is usually so brief that it is a sign that is commonly missed and/or understand the conveyed feelings with a single touch. 1 ) They are reassuring themselves that you are still there. 2 ) They are stating subtly that they care and love you, and further acknowledge your presence and love for them. 3 ) The atypical Chinese woman hasn¡¯t received this same treatment in China from her past culture. I won¡¯t even deliberate this point further, since there is a plethora of articles related to the Chinese man/woman relationships. I¡¯m staying on topic with what many have today and will further tomorrow. Physical and verbal abuse will also destroy this love that they have and cause both of you loss of face. The physical abuse is self-explanatory. The verbal abuse can consist of demeaning and/or condescending attitudes about her culture, not taking pride that your wife is Chinese and loving her for it, correcting her in front of others and/or your friends, sarcastic remarks, etc, etc! The list is endless! The old Golden rule applies here! ¡°Treat others, as you wish to be treated!¡± If you truly fully understand Chinese of whatever, dialect and your wife did the same thing to you in China; how would you feel? Remember that this is her home-court advantage and you are just another ¡°chutzpah¡± laowei, which makes many mistakes in China! You lack of Chinese or not understanding Chinese customs will be a source of embarrassment for her! Would you like to be treated in the same way? BTW, this isn¡¯t directed at the majority. It is primarily directed the few apples that might spoil the entire barrel. However, for the majority; perhaps there are certain statements that cause you to violate what I stated above. Why not ask the best cop, to see if you are wrong or what really pisses her off! Your own wife! Ask her and have a fruitful discussion and perhaps you will find out things that you totally missed. BTW, I¡¯m just as guilty and have already done this! I was surprised at the things and how many times I inadvertely placed my foot in my mouth and the little things that she perceives and understand that piss her off, but she keeps her mouth shut about! Here is an example of love/verbal abuse/controlling that I spoke of previously and is exactly what I saw in LAX while dropping my wife off. I know who he is and I will give no one clues innuendos about his identity. I recognized him from photographs. I was dropping off my wife at LAX for her recent trip and we were standing in the inevitable line in California! LOL! Sorry folks! In California, 90% of your time is spent traveling from point A to B, you are stuck in gridlock traffic or waiting in line! 5% of our time is spent being serviced and the remaining time is spent correcting someone else¡¯s mistake! LOL! However, I digress and I will rein in my celebrated wit and humor. We were standing in line when an American man and his Chinese wife entered through the terminal doors. He had the heavy luggage and she toted several hand carried bags and obviously she wasn¡¯t Arnold the way she was exhausted. I started to head that way to help. However, my wife held me back, since the man was pointing, shouting directions to her and gesticulating in numerous and different directions. Suffice to say that the line (primarily Chinese), turned and looked at the man and his wife. There were some serious looks of anger with the Chinese men and one American. ME! He lined his wife up and continued lecturing her about her flight plans, when to call him, how could she be so stupid to forget this or that! BTW, should I mention gesticulating, shouting and pointing here or there the entire time? This tirade continued onwards for 15 minutes, until I could move my wife up to the terminal departure gate. My wife did caution me not to come back and kick hiss skull in. My thoughts? No thanks honey, I¡¯ll kill him! Instead, I will kick his baggage around and cause him to miss his flight! A lesser offense and probably would go as a civil matter! I know! A dream! I would have hurt the woman more than I hurt him. However, my last thoughts and impressions were of the woman. She was maybe 37 to 40 years of age looking at her face. However, she looked worn down and appeared to be 45! WTF? This is love that I see your posts about and how you extol your virtues? The woman looked like a whipped and beaten down dog, which always complied with the Master¡¯s orders. Got good news for you fat buddy! My wife and yours ended up sitting one seat away from each other. You know how Chinese women gossip and network? They both had about 12 sleepless hours on the flight together talking! Fat buddy, to quote Judas Priest; ¡°You gotta another thing comin!¡± I suggest that you pay very close attention to this posting. I only have one prayer for God! Please, God send this moron to me in San Diego when we are alone! Anyway, enough of this. This is how respect is lost. I suppose Fat Buddy, does serve some useful purpose and sinks this point home very aptly. I will give to small examples of exactly what I stated previously about love. The first example is my wife and I. This tactile stroking I spoke of earlier, is done very frequently. I may be reading a book, studying. Yin will be on the computer, reading or whatever. Not a word is spoken for 1 to 1.5 hours. My wife will arise to refill my teacup, go to the restroom. Her favorite place is to touch my ears or neck (BTW, mine too! LOL), as she passes me. Very lightly! However, more than enough to get my attention that she hasn¡¯t forgotten about me, love and compassion are still there. Another case is we will be sitting quietly doing our own interests, perhaps in opposite rooms. Yin will call my name. I promptly will respond and ask what she needs. Quite commonly, she will state nothing! She just wanted to hear my voice. WOW! ¡°Auditory-stroking!¡± The second example that I offer is a man that I talk with very frequently. Out of respect for his privacy I will reduce details and names. However, his is a perfect example to what I have stated about companionships issues that Chinese women seek and desire. They both come from diverse and intermixed and really complicated backgrounds. They met each other, and a beautiful relationship began. We were talking one day and stated that she was coming for a visit to the Northeast and he fretted about what to do with her and her daughter. I obtained some background information regard to some property he had and made some suggestions. These ladies arrived and did all of the things that he loved and immediately fell in love with the same values, making homemade maple syrup that they tapped from his trees, saw wildlife not confined in a zoo, Rode a string of Morgan horses, went grocery shopping with snowmobiles and the list goes on and on. He attempted to bundle them up as much as he could, but they still caught a cold. I was afraid when we talked later that the woman would ¡°jack his ass up,¡± due to their disease. Not so. They both healed up and went back into they fray, full-bore! They simply switched gears, went for the hot chocolate, tea, soups, Alka Seltzer Cold Plus, and s¡¯mores by a fireplace. As a humorous side note; most Chinese dislike this much processed sugar at one sitting. She confirmed this dislike, by eating 6 or 7 s¡¯mores to confirm her dislike. Yeah right! Chinese women never lie! LOL! To end this second example, their relationship is doing extremely well. This example shows you the exact issues I stated previously, how adaptable a Chinese woman, and not to mention the ¡°psychological stroking¡± that she and her daughter are giving to her future husband/father. What better gift can be given to us in our relationships and to both of them? Look at your own relationship and look for the same subtle keys, that I¡¯m discussing. To add to this particular; I have been asked frequently by first time arrivers to China; how should they approach China, the culture and a new future relationship? Very simple! Eyes wide open, with scientific logic and observation coupled with no preconceived ideas and a ¡°child-like¡± curiosity for what they see, hear, touch and feel in their hearts. After this, the Chinese culture, China itself as a country and you new relationship will finish your education. Trust and Face: This area is slightly related to Compatibility, previously talked about. Trust is tantamount to any successful relationship. With the atypical Chinese woman, it is gained fairly easily. Once a serious relationship and/or love sets in the trust becomes written in stone. This then continues into the marriage. However, trust is so hard to be gained and yet so easily lost! Attempting to control the Chinese woman is one sure-fire way of not only losing this trust, but is damned sure a loss of face for her! She already knows her English is sub-par and/or she has an accent. She is keenly aware that many others and possibly the husband use a Western ruler to measure her up against other women in the West. Chinese women have been treated in their own culture as second-class citizens and they aren¡¯t tolerating it anymore! The new evolving Chinese woman hybrid is making new gains and they darn sure aren¡¯t going backwards from what they have gained. If there any doubt why the divorce rate is rising in China? The average woman wants to be respected for her opinions and will demand a say in family matters! Most especially if she feels that you are making a stupid knuckleheaded decision in her opinion, as example; buying the last and best bass-fishing boat! This woman will be on you akin to ¡°white on rice!¡± This controlling issue has been around a long damn time. The CCP tried it and failed, and if history shows mistakes, you aren¡¯t going to control her! The best we can do is to divert the water. Not stop it altogether! You try this and I assure you that you will ¡°drown!¡± The woman will change and adapt to her new environment in her own way and at her own pace. She is mentally sorting out what she needs to keep from her traditional Chinese imprinted and learned culture and what she needs to discard. The best that we as men can do is act as a friend, mentor, counsel and advise. There are few times when I put my foot down solidly with my wife, unless I know that it will fail and I¡¯m protecting her. Even then, negotiations are begun, compromises are reached, etc. Friends and Family The typical Chinese woman wants their friends and families near them. The Chinese culture is far more cohesive unit that Western families and friends are. There are exceptions of course. But by and large groups are tighter in China by far. The newly arrived woman in the West is truly lost at times and needs a bit of channeling. The reason is that the network that she had in China is suddenly removed. This leaves us as men holding the proverbial ¡°burnt end of a stick!¡± This is her new world and you and I are the only anchors that she has. Hence, we see many posting about Chinese websites, television via computer, Chinese TV Channels, books, etc, etc, on CFL. These IMHO, are reactions and requests for assistance from members to aid in this loss of network that our wives suffer. By the sheer volumes of posts and assistance rendered, they still simply aren¡¯t enough to make up her lost social network. All of these devices are electronic and the women want to be able to see, hear and communicate directly face-to-face, with another Chinese person. Not electronically! This is the Western way. Not Chinese way. Is there not a better reason, to see why they become bored? The members near huge Chinese communities are fortunate in this aspect. However, what of the person in Mississippi, North Dakota, Iowa and Nebraska? They don¡¯t have this luxury, and are reduced to electronic friendships. The longer they are in this environment, the worse that it gets. Chinese women are adaptable and want to be with their husbands. They begin burying their feelings and putting on a brave face. 1 or 2 years go by and the camel gets the final straw. It isn¡¯t the particular issue they are pissed off about. It her loss of social network, the sacrifices she had made for her family and buried what she truly feels away deep inside of her mind! Eventually these feelings come out. Even though I live in San Diego, my wife feels the same and sees the differences in Western relationships, whether American or Chinese. That is the reason that I send my wife on extended separate vacations. I want her to feel this network again, begin embracing her culture that she has lost to be with me. The last thing she needs is an interfering laowei husband getting in the way, as she does double-duty as a translator. It also gives a separate breather from each other, to both of us. When the marriage comes back together; the marriage is rejuvenated, gifts and news are exchanged, she can deal with the West for another year and look forward to the next trip, and I get my tactile stroking back and more, if you understand what I mean. LOL! However this is for another topic later in time. I will close for now and begin to pace myself. The next segment is extremely hard and will take a couple of days to get together. This regard to Sex and Love. BTW, there will be no lurid sexual details, ¡°How-to¡± photos, favorite Chinese sexual positions, etc. It will be strictly academic and very factual. Please keep and open mind consider what I have said previously. Many times Westerners take China for what it is granted. This is a completely different culture. Yes! We as American¡¯s believe in equal rights, etc, etc. We lead the world in this aspect! IMHO, there are no fairer people. However, Chinese have a culture that is more ancient and culturally refined. China although they have advanced enormously in the last 30 years, is still developing and will make new cultural values. However, make no mistake! This is an entirely different culture. Yes! Women are women the world over, with all of the idiosyncrasies that are inherent to the gender. This is not the issue. The true issue is that we have married Chinese women and it is a very different culture. Now we have the common woman and into the mixture we throw Chinese cultural differences in. Ergo, my glibly coining of the term of a hybrid! One of the conclusions I reached about 15 years ago in my travels is that, what Westerners can¡¯t see, touch, or logically reasoned out, isn¡¯t really all that different. At the risk of sounding political and shutting this thread down, I assure you that it is not and is extremely different. I reached my first conclusions of this fact in South Korea and with my wife today; the conclusion has stood up to the acid test. I want to relieve some pressure from the CFL male members. The atypical Chinese woman expects you to understand who and what she is and she shouldn¡¯t have to explain it to you. She expects that you already know what I have stated in this thread. IMHO, this is a fallacy on their part and they are/should be a part of the solution too. Men have the largest burden but Chinese women also must bear part of the load too! Both, women and men must meet and understand each other. They must both learn about each other¡¯s culture, embrace each other¡¯s culture as assets and treasures, and finally to have true empathy to what each other must go through and hopefully many years down the road. Gentlemen, the burden is yours and mine! No one held a shotgun wedding in China, or held your arm scribbling your signature out on a 129 application or on a Red Book in China! The women rely on us and that is THAT! How you use the information is up to you. However, I would suggest that each member go home, ponder what I have said, make it fir their family and seek what I have already found. I assure you, that with me it pays dividends. At the risk of repeating myself, keep one thing in mind: ¡°¡­Very simple! Eyes wide open, with scientific logic and observation coupled with no preconceived ideas and a ¡°child-like¡± curiosity for what they see, hear, touch and feel in their hearts.¡± Take care all. I truly hope that you can use this information as a tool and find the love that I share with my wife! Even if you consider your relationship as perfect, will it stand up against the ¡°acid test¡± of the passage of time? For the good relationships use this information as a tool to make a fantastic marriage. Dave

Jeff, Just a fast post in passing, since I'm still resting up a bit. I believe that Visa Journey had a complete separate thread regard to Canadians and their processes. I don't know very much about the Canadian options, so I would advise her friend to follow the advice of C4Racer and Randy, until proven otherwise. Dave

To all, Just to let you know I have been answering PMs (I mean 35 plus) for most of tonight and four telephone calls. How in the Hell did people from 001 get my address? My wife and I need to talk when she returns! Sighhhhhh! However, I answer all PMs sent to me. I wish to take a night or two off to get some sleep, organize the concluding segment of Item 2 and possibly get the Sexual and Love segment outlined. BTW, I was joking about the PMs. I really don't mind. They simply take time to read, think and then answer appropriately, to each and every one of them. I'm personally proud that I could bring this subject out into the open, which was full intention in the first place. They only thing that I miss is more woman's input. The women in 001 forum are a bit shy and I fully understand how they feel. To the PM senders; thank you from my heart, mind and soul. I haven't felt this way in such a long time, and I now feel that I have justified my presence by being here and helping others out. Yin talked with me tonight from China and also agrees with what I'm saying.....as long and I don't tell any stories about her that make her look stupid, to make a point! I assured her that I had more than enough stupid stories of my own! I wouldn't have to use her stories! Take care all. Dave

Jimi, I wanted to save bandwidth for don. Therefore, I deleted my last post and made this reply and I quote your post.... "Good reading Dave !!!!! One thing that is true regardless if they are from China,or where ever......don't ever try to change ANYONE!!!!!!and for God sake,don't try to control anyone.....after all you married your wife/husband for who they are right? My first wife,tried to change me on a daily basis,...take it from me,it doesn't work,actually,human nature.....you will do the opposite,the more my ex wife tried to pull me one way..... the more i went the opposite direction.....My wife now ,had an interesting way...i remember,my second trip to china,my wife and I were going out to eat,I had no idea what kind of restuarant,she was dressed nice,and I being from Florida,was dressed in shorts and a t-shirt.....the wife,looked at me,put on some more make up and dressed a little more nicer, she was a doll,and I.....I realised,i look like a bum...i went in the bedroom,changed into some nicer clothes,.....she didn't try to change me(in the traditional,nagging sense)....she made me come to the conclusion all on my own....hey,i need to look nice for my wife......funny,all this without her saying a damn word. i am still in the honeymoon stage....my wife is still in China..... this is a cool topic...."food for thought" jimi" In response Jimi, I read your post about dinner and clothes. I see that she doesn't have to say a single thing to you and you already knew the answer. I'm the same way. My first dinner my first dinner in Chengdu i dress as I normally, but more dressed upwards. I wore cowboy boots (highly polished and I mean you can see your face in them whle standing upright) low cron Stetson, pressed boot cut jeans with a sports jacket. My wife worried about the hat, but she knew where I came from. In China dress for success and to fit the occasion. I assure you that your wife going to a good restaurant...her husband's dress reflects what she has decided to marry. This is a huge loss of face for a woman. BTW, dress semi-casual around the family and as they know you better, then dress-"down." May I add this same principle will apply in the US? Dress like a slob in the US around a Chinese woman. You will get the same looks also, but to a lesser degree. This is how a Chinese woman can control a man. How does it feel to be controlled so subtly by a small Chinese woman? One look and no words need to be spoken do they? Take care Dave

You are correct that I am newly married, but I'm an old dawg and married an older gal. We are both quite conservative by nature, perhaps that explains a bit of it. ...but then, I've never seen much difference between Chinese people and people anywhere else in the world. Of course, there are differences and quirks but everyone's got 'em. I felt that way even on my first trip to China in 1978, although the differences were more apparent then. (I will say that my shipmates saw HUGE differences between Chinese people and Americans even though I did not; but then, they didn't see the Chinese as real people either.) Where I see a more significant difference is in younger Chinese. They appear to have combined the worst the West has to offer in attitude and behavior with an absence of Т and respect. People are people. If you respect them first, the quirks that distinguish each of you become more manageable. Now none of this means that my gal's quirks don't make me nuts from time to time, but any gal - from any place on the planet - would have quirks that could do that. You're entitled to your opinion that Chinese quirks are uniquely and specially quirky, but my experience around the world won't allow me to agree. Griz, I apologize for responding so late. After this posting I made, I have been buried in PMs from 001 forum (where my wife belongs to), private E-Mail and CFL PM. BTW; I always respond to all PMs sent to me. Regard to your posting you made. You are absolutely correct the age difference changes the equation of the relationship significantly. The same is true with the younger women and the upcoming sexual (item 3) that I'm still organizing in my mind and will post later. BTW readers, this will not be a lurid sexual report of sex habits, etc. The previous subject of values isn't quite covered yet and many important points still remain. I agree with you Griz; the older the woman is, she is seeking IMHO a "comfortable" partner to be with. This is not bad in the least and not meant as an insult. after 50 or so years, attitudes begin to change. Chinese women at this stage are seeking stability and longevity in their relationship. Not wild lurid sexual escapades, making love on the lawn under a full moon. IMHO, they are seeking a stable man, that is logical, well-mannered, polite, respects them as a woman and/or wife. Therefore, we go right back to where I originally posted and the logic of a Chinese woman. You have fulfilled this need of an older Chinese woman already. As I have stated previously, I giving to CFL members and guests the tools to form a lasting relationship and/or improve what they already have which is your case. No more. No less. How they treat this information is their choice. Do me a favor and forget about the Navy and/or merchant seamen. I listen to this dribble day in and day out. They state how knowledgeable they are hanging out in Hong Kong or wherever. They opine about my relationship with my wife, give their opinions and advice, and what they profess as God given knowledge specially relegated to themselves from their travels into harbor cities as truth. You wouldn't t tolerate this abuse and inane dribble from any CFL member or anyone else. Neither would I, and would feel the same. Isn't so nice to have "arm-chair quarterbacks" advising us about our particular Chinese/American marriage? That is why my post is very neutral and pokes accusatory fingers at no one. Griz, just keep an open mind, an open heart and read the whole posting until I finish. Then think about your own relationship and ask yourself this one question and one question only...... "Did Dave make a particular point from his posting, some little fact that I gleaned from it, that that would improve my relationship and make my wife even happier than she is today?" If you can't see some tiny intrinsic value in the post and thoughts than I'm making then you should just walk away and forget what I'm saying. I won't wish you bad in the least. This is America, the land of free choices. You have chosen. May I suggest that you give an older couple's perspective and what you have gone through? I'm blank in this area, as well as to Mrs Amber and Chinese men. What I have heard she doesn't want to hear. BTW, Amber if you are reading this posting; it is mostly conjecture and rumor. So I don't even talk about it. This is why I wanted input from anyone and specifically from CFL members. This is your butts on the anvil and not mine. To be perfectly honest: I became so tired of the inane dribble on Twisted Candle, the hyperlinks, bootstrapping of arguments and of how this member felt about something was right and wrong, I only casually read the TW. Why are members deliberately dodging the "elephant in the the middle of the room?" and there own wives? Instead they spend time talking about subjects that in 500 years; who truly gives a crap? This is nice for deversion. Do you truly think that the answer to you answer lies in Twisted Candle topics? I know! I know! On a soapbox. That was the prime reason that I took this from Twisted Candle and placed in Culture Forum. I want guests to see it, increase membership, ergo thereby increasing the intellgence data base( WOW! I used a power word didn't I?). I;m still waiting for the women to respond. Jin responded! Where is the rest of the CFL sisterhood? I love a good debate. Remember, I'm still learning today too and I need input. Dave

Craig, As I stated in the beginning of my post, that I'm no demi-god that has all the answers. I'm merely giving to CFL members the tools and my own experiences from what I have suffered, failed/ succeeded at. BTW, may I mention the fact, that I have failed and succeeded many times myself over five years! I assure you and many other members that the path to heaven has any tripping points. The tools and lessons that I provide should be modified to your own family. My thoughts, logic and suppositions, lay with the individual CFL member or the guests that read this posting. As I replied to one particular PM; and I quote myself, "...it is not my ass on the anvil! It yours and your wife's!..." However, it seems that you are definitely on the right track, IMHO regard to the family. I have done the same, consisting of tea parties, respecting the elders and letting them know that their opinions are valued. My own casual walks with the elder generation and/or taking them places where they desire to go and gifts (e,g Centerum Silver, Fish Oil tablets) hat are given to them, let them know that I'm no weird laowei that came into their daughters life. You ought to to see me escorting my aunt (about 5 '1", plus 100 pounds) and I stand 6' 7" and weigh about 300 pounds and work at the gym constantly, into the Sichuan Opera! LOL! My aunt and my wife always warn me about as she calls "slickie boys" : that will rob her and her hurt me! If you are a mugger, and I come into the alley; I'm hunting you! However, the thought is touching, that she worries about me! This is the good relationship that you are seeking. You have begun to understand. Now I have given you extra tools to help you. Use them to your advantage. I wish the best for your relationship. Dave

Jin and I quote ".... you I can only talk for myself, but to marry me (a chinese) means things will change. i keep this simple, yes final decision is husbands as long it agrees. Most important is harmony which means from both. i will add you must show that your wife is # 1 most important love and that you trust her to be a chinese wife. what does that mean, it means many things. but most important is to make good family which means you must not think to control is good. a good chinese wife knows what is right for marriage and will fight for it. can we compromise, yes, but remember at least to me i see it takes time and alot of fun ." This is where the Sichuan Prejudiced Chef and Free Range Chickens came from in the first place. You have to see the bad and good in all cultures and see the humor in all relationships. In short: if you have no humor, you will have a very dull and uninteresting marriage. No one wants this! Regard to control of a Chinese woman, you are "spot-on" ( I know that Rob has taught you this already). The atypical Chinese woman doesn't need direction on her family. She already knows this already! BTW, she will fight like Hell to maintain her family. The problem arises o when people attempt to change what they have today into what their particular culture thinks is an ideal marriage. That is when things go amok. Personally, I have seen this disturbing trend many times, by unnamed posters in CFL and it is getting more prevelant as time passes. That is why I began posting again, so that others may learn from my mistakes. Dave

This is the second segment. I apologize to readers. It has been a VERY long day at the shipyards. If I seem to ramble a bit, please chock it up as a 15 and 1/2 hour day and this is my third in a row in one week. ¡°Griz 326 I don't see much difference between Chinese and American women. Aside from the fact that Chinese women are tough as nails, the are differences I see are mostly trivial¡­.¡± Griz, IMHO, I believe that you are wrong, but this is my opinion only. Hence, the prime reason for this posting. I¡¯m pointing out differences that I have perceived and investigated with my own family. The reader can then take my logic and thoughts back and examine his own family. Every relationship is different and I won¡¯t even attempt to posture myself as a Chinese/American Love/Relationship demi-god, which sees all, and has every answer. This is up to you and your own family. I will point out one item for you to consider. Each Chinese woman/man has their own totally unique imprinted images (there is that word again!), upbringing and value system. Comparing our two families would be comparing apples to oranges. This is not meant as a flame, just a thought for you. As marriages go IMHO, you are still in the Honeymoon stage and could be classified as a recent marriage. After five years of marriage; approach someone with an intercultural marriage to a Chinese, come tell them this statement. It isn¡¯t the large log that broke the camel¡¯s back; it was the final twig added to the load. Chinese women won't break down (exception if they are weak in the first place or a Green Card ride), until the passage of time, and the twigs begin developing into a large load. Then one day; she/he snaps and may himself God have mercy upon you. Most of the marriages that my wife and I see dissolve are primarily due to the accumulation of twigs, adultery, Green Card rides and control issues. My wife belongs to several strictly Chinese forums and this is a common complaint among the Chinese women, is that their husbands don¡¯t respect their feelings, and I mean the little things and want to control them. Just keep an open mind. Like I stated previously, yours is still a young marriage. It gets worse after this. ¡°Jin979 This is the most interesting thread i have seen. by the way cerebus i understand your wifes thinking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) it is always great to see posts from men like you and Amafan who have looked inside themselves to understand and will share it. All i can add is that we have been married together in USA for a short time. but he tries better every day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) i suspect most like us have great fun learning our differences, to some it may be too much to accept. for anyone to ingore the cultural aspect in this would be crazy. i would also like add that as we coming here we protect ourselves in what is comfortable so hold to chinese thinking and beviours vert tightly.¡± Jin Thank you for the compliments. Perhaps, Amafan and my thoughts can reduce the amount of posts in the Problems and Partings sub-forum. I know Rob tries and he will still fail to measure up. However, if it s any comfort I was also the same and I already had fifteen years ¡°under my belt¡± for experience. I still screwed up! LOL! Might I suggest a quiet cup of tea, quietly sigh to yourself, relax and repeat three times ¡°He is only a man in training!¡± After all, the new puppy to your home, no matter how many times you housebreak him will piddle on the floor, every once in awhile! LOL Your last statement is the greatest I have heard and so very well put. I have a thought to the naysayers that think that cultural differences aren¡¯t important¡­. You may take the girl/boy out of China! However, you will never take the China out of the girl/boy! All you do is help them modify the China in them to fit in wherever you are! ¡°LeeFisher3 I've met too many who have the attitude that my wife is in America now she needs to adopt American ways. This is absurd, she is free to choose to adopt what she wants and ignore the rest. I do try to help her understand some of the things she sees and hears, but if she changed who she was because me or someone else said it was required she wouldn't be the same person I married and that would not be a happy life.¡± Lee, Absolutely dead on target! Man does this particular aspect piss Yin off! Remember back in 2004 and I referred to my wife as Alice, when I posted in CFL? She arrived in Chicago (POE), went to Nebraska where I was finishing my graduate studies. She fit in very well and one day I called her name Alice. She flat out told me not to call her that name again. BTW, ever look into the eyes of a disaster? I looked into Yin¡¯s eyes and knew that she was dead serious and had the fire you see in a Chinese woman¡¯s eye, when you are about to be flamed. I gently asked her if everything was all right! Talk about opening the floodgates! Holy S _ _t! She told me that she was tired of Americans trying to control and adjust her, so that she could be a true American. She was born Chinese, lived as a Chinese woman in America married to an American man, and would die Chinese. She continued that if someone couldn¡¯t remember her name or take the time to listen to her; then they could SOD off! Her final statement she made was who are Westerner¡¯s to tell a Chinese how they should act? Chinese had 5,000 years of culture and America only had 280 years plus! BTW, remember the post I made about 5,000 years of culture? That is where 5,000 years of culture came from, without explaining the circumstances of how I "coined" the term. Yin loves her mother country and that is a line that I won¡¯t even cross. Perhaps, she might try to replace Hu, Jing Tao! LOL One never knows! Anyway to the second segment of this issue: Cultural Values of Both Genders. As LeeFisher3 pointed out in a previous post, the typical Chinese women, has and always respect their mother country. They hate being changed (BTW, which they consider the same type of control the CCP does) into something that they aren¡¯t. This is a bit more of a nebulous issue so please bear with me, if examples are used to make a point clearer to the reader. My wife and I met via Internet. I had been talking to a doctor in the city of Guilin. One day, I received a PM from the agency stating that she (Yin) read my profile and wished to converse. In conclusion the doctor went away which will be explained shortly. I have since lost my profile, etc, but I placed in there that many years of travel and residing in the Far East (not China). I received her reply back, that this was exactly what she was looking for. She wanted a person that could understand her mannerisms and logic patterns. Being the typical American, I was very suspicious with such statements. I did not look at her photographs since I wanted a clear mind with no distractions and I could understand the person mentally with PMs. Many PMs were sent back and forth, with her asking numerous times, if I had ever looked at her photographs? I would always tell her know, that I didn¡¯t want to look at them, until I knew her heart and mind. This seemed to satisfy her for the time being. By this time, the telephone calls had begun. Suffice to say, I fell in love with her voice, laughter and long conversations mostly wrapped around families, what the other did for the day, etc. The time came and she finally asked me if I was satisfied with our relationship to look at her profile. I stated yes and she stated that she would send me a ¡°special¡± photograph that was not part of the profile, I could look at. I¡¯m only thinking that this is the moment of truth. How bad can she look? Understand gentlemen, I worship at Murphy¡¯s altar; whatever can wrong will go wrong and when things are dark, watch out! Things can go totally black! I consoled myself with the thought that I knew the woman¡¯s heart and mind fairly well by this time, and wouldn¡¯t matter if she could eat corn through a picket fence; she had a good heart and that was that. Here is the photograph I received¡­(BTW readers; the hair is now below the waist, red tint is totally gone today. It is very Chinese black and is now a proud asset that she has. Although the neighbors still look at her in puzzlement, when she comes into the yard to comb her hair. Thank the Lord, that I didn't see this photo, when we first began conversing. Gentlemen, you understand what I'm saying. http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii71/Typhon100/Kevin1.jpg Now that I have set the stage, let me explain something about the woman I married. Yin and many ¡°good¡± (for the lack of a better term, think of well brought up) Chinese are very much in love with their Motherland. My own wife has never been a CCP member and actually dislikes the Party. It is a very strange relationship. Yin¡¯s family is very educated and extremely well to do in Chinese society. Half of them are CCP and half are not. In family gatherings, the subject of political ideologies is never brought up. I have attended several (guess who gets to pay the bill?) reunions and my political views are never brought up either. I'm simply accepted as a son-in-law, a family member, etc. What is the point? Very simple! All Chinese will always love their mother country. They may not like Tibetan issues! They may not like Falun Gong issues! They may deplore human rights violations perpetuated by the PRC CCP! However, make no mistake; they love their motherland and you better not forget it! Like I stated in a response¡­. ¡°You may take the girl/boy out of China! However, you will never take the China out of the girl/boy!¡± In regard to the family, lets explore this aspect. To a Chinese woman¡¯s ¡°eye,¡± the man of the home is the primary breadwinner. He may have hard times like right now today and she may have to fill in, as a wife should do to support her family and her husband. However, men don¡¯t sit on you laurels while wifey-poo takes the load! A Chinese wife wife won¡¯t tolerate it for very long! You better be doing something to better the family's life. I still laugh at members that want to teach ESL in China and stay at home, while the Chinese wife/man is the prime breadwinner. As a matter of face, you have lost your role as a primary breadwinner and now relegated to the role of whatever! Is this how you wish to earn respect? Good luck! You better have a better game plan than ESL. IMHO, the man today in a normal mixed marriage, is expected to make the hard bottom-line decisions for the good of the family. The Chinese wife however, wants to have input as to what is going on though. If you fail in this regard; the woman has to make up for your weakness and guard her own new life. You made your own bed, therefore you have to sleep in it. BTW, If you think for an instant, that your wife hasn't found 001 forum or some other forum, and read input from other Chinese women, then you are seriously delusional! This is the nature of Chinese women. They network their asses off! It is a sisterhood and guess where we fit in? You better have your act together and make your wife happy or you will have a long hard road ahead of you. BTW, my own wife read other Chinese women's opinions and will sound their ideas off of me. You better get used to it. I have a very good relationship and don;t fear their input and my wife quite often asks what I think about such about this or that opinion. Please understand gentlemen. The woman has almost 85% made up her own opinion of what she feels before she asks you. You are merely a sounding wall to clarify her opinion of what she understands, about this or that opinion. Remember what I said about control. Now! The point comes home! That is why you damn well better pay attention to your wives/husbands input! In China, the family is ultimate. That is one reason that Chinese look at American families and consider them as very ¡°loose arrangements!¡± If you ever forget this rule and you are in line for a world of s _ _t! If you wish to disregard this advice; so be it. It is your butt on the anvil and not mine. One thing I should mention and I have seen this posted very frequently. I make a very good salary for what I do. My wife doesn¡¯t have to work. However! She still wants to work! I have every bill covered and have extra money that we can still save. My own wife wants to work even a part-time seasonal employee at Macy¡¯s because it reinforces her status in the world. It is a type of psychological ¡°stroking.¡± Every human being wishes to consider themselves as valuable and an asset to society. My wife took a very low paying job, seasonal and temporary, so that she had her own savings account she controlled and managed, had her own Macy¡¯s credit card that she controlled, would come home from work with the same complaints that we as men make to our wives about a hard day at the office, and still I sensed pride being there. Obvious conclusion is that she wishes to make her own way through the world. Chinese women/men are very proud about this. They abhor relying on others and may I repeat being controlled! In my own marriage, I constantly seek my wife¡¯s advice. However, the bottom line decision is mine and mine only. This is a very hard responsibility for the head of the house; deciding what is the best for the family, what are their best interests now and in the future, how the other will feel, what is good for them, etc, etc, etc. May I add that many times and you may also see members asking what Chinese cultural aspects are there when I move, etc, etc, etc. This is one reason that this topic was pinned for members: http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28599. It was pinned since we, as Chinese/American relationships need every asset we can find. This particular aspect of Chinese women has been going on for a long time and will far into the future. If a member wishes to test this thought in their own relationship why not simply ask her the goods and bad differences between living in China and America. Unless you are a real dullard, you will soon see, that the woman /man will always want to go back to their native country. This isn¡¯t saying that China is bad or America sucks! Hence the comment I made about taking the woman/man out of China, but never removing China from them. Another aspect to be thought of is when the man/woman lives and /or lives with you in the US. You have brought your wife to the ¡°golden streets¡± of the US in say; Paslouga, Mississippi, New York City or even LA, and are making high five figures with merit bonuses. You have a good career there with no proverbial glass ceiling as to advancement; you have purchased a three-bedroom home there with ½ acre for a garden and flowers. Your new partner has computers and telephones to link to China, etc, etc, etc. She has a new caring husband and everything is working right. IMHO, if you fall into this delusional dream; than you are a fool and need to rethink your position. I make six figure salary and live in San Diego. Please understand; not flaunting how good I am, pride or making members feel bad. I worked damned hard to get where I am today. The point is that with all this wealth, the Chinese woman still considers her family number one, the happiness of the family, sending some of you hard-earned wealth back to help her family and to be altruistic to everyone. Chinese women/men don¡¯t go scattering around money for the masses. Chinese women/men put money where money does the most good. My wife is China right now on a 3-month extended vacation. I told her to go and enjoy China and not worry about me. I¡¯m not likely zipping off to Tijuana or find a new concubine on the side. What is the point? My wife has called me several times and stated that the US is boring as compared to America! WTF? This is from a woman that lives in San Diego, nice home, nice salary, beaches, etc, etc. This is not like she lived in Mississippi or Arkansas! This a true Chinese woman in her motherland that enjoys the loud restaurants and the conversations among friends, the routine daily activities in Chinese life that we as American¡¯s miss when we are in China that only a true Chinese person understands, the bargaining with merchants for the lowest price, etc, etc. The list is endless. If you think for one minute that your partner doesn¡¯t miss this, then you are sadly ignorant of the original nature of your partner. May I suggest that you go back and through quiet questioning and discussion, find her deepest values that she/he may not be telling you because you may not be able to afford it and they don¡¯t want to embarrass you. In conclusion to his particular point, my wife and generally discussed the points I made above regard to boredom in the US with a recent telephone call we had. My wife has her opinions and I have mine. We began to conclude our conversation and I told her that I wished her to return to China at least once a year and I would pay as usual. There was silence at the other end of the telephone for about 30 seconds. Then I could hear my wife quietly crying thanking me very much that I did this, she hated being separated from me, however, she still loved China. Members, this is what I stated above in so many points. You will never and I mean never; change your Chinese wife/husband into a stereotypical American (and I refer to as an abomination or a lie) ¡°perfect¡± relationship. The only thing that we are able to do, is to allow the initial relationship to develop, both have empathy for the other, forgive easily, take the good and the bad of both sides and recognize their viewpoints, and form a hybrid relationship. She/He has little chance of changing you, as you do of changing she/he. You are what you are. After the age of 16 to 18 years old, imprinted images and preconceived values/set standards are done. All we are able to do now: is to modify them. If you cannot do this¡­then your life will be Hell! I will not name names. However, for CFL members, those are paying attention to this posting; go back to the Problems and Partings sub-forum (for guests; register, read my words, and read the same section). Isn¡¯t there a commonality among all of the postings in this section? I never prejudge anyone. However, I see the postings in the Separations forum, and I then search the member¡¯s previous postings and reread them from Day 1. I¡¯m sorry! I¡¯m shocked, and it is very hard to shock me, at what I read. These people how people make a healthy relationship? I can see the handwriting on the wall of a disaster being made. I will close for now. I have had a very hard day at work that began at 0430AM and finally ended at 1830 PM. I will begin again tomorrow. Dave

Whome?, Whenever a retort post is started, CFL people's tongues began wagging about this or that. I just didn't want to get the shit flying so soon, until they understood it was a serious post. I just wanted to start the post off right. Again; thanks for the inspiration. Dave

Jimi you ain't seen nothing yet. Hold on for the following segments. I assure that I will rock many members world. I will blow you and many members away with small keys. I truly want to hear from the women. Time to bring their perspective in here. Dave

Amanda, Same problems my wife and I have had in the past. You can scan it, but husband needs a limited Power of Attorney, etc, etc for the scan and for official signature purposes. May I suggest two ways? 1) File an extension with IRS, and your husband mail it registered mail with a cover letter stating why you are filing late. 2 ) Fedex out of China or wherever. My wife and I have had this problem and have used both methods with good success. If in the case of an upcoming interview, etc, use the FedEx method if time is of essence. Your husband can have any filings notarized in the US and sent to you and be there in five days or less. Dave

The original topic posting is located at http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...=35732&st=0 and was started by RedKris. Whome? Later posted a very interesting question and I realized that perhaps I wasn¡¯t very clear in my posting and further clarification was needed. Further, in my time in CFL of approx 4.5 years, I don¡¯t think I have seen this topic covered to the extent that I will cover it now. Please understand that this is not a flame directed at Whome? ! The topic is intended to be an educational tool that either party, Chinese and/or American can use to improve their own relationship. Who knows? It might even save having an argument or two, at very best prevent at least one divorce due to intercultural differences. If the reader is expecting prejudicial inflammatory remarks, they will be sadly disappointed. Here is what Whome? posted at the this link: http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...=35732&st=0 Post #11, I quote him as follows with no corrections except [sic] being placed in by myself: ¡°¡­I am quite confused by your last two posts Dave. While I agree there is much to learn about Far East culture and your eastern wife for a westerner I do not really see my Chinese wife any different from any other woman. Men and women think different, all over the world. You could insert any nationality into your Neb. weather joke and it would be true and funny. KISS - A relationship is always hard and requires learning about each other and working at it ... even if both from same country and same background you still grew up with you unique set of values and thoughts shaped by your environment. Does not matter where you are from -- if you love and respect someone and work at it you loearn [sic] new things everyday and enjoy it. If you don't .. well you divorce. ¡° First let me give credit where credit is due. Thanks Kris, for posting such a good topic, that made a passionate flame, to help others, arise in me that I haven¡¯t felt in a long, long time. It may have been ill perceived of the exact topic that you were putting forward. However, it got my ¡°juices¡± flowing again. The second round of thanks goes to Whome? I¡¯m reluctant to use your first name, in respect to changing your Screen signature name. I will leave this to you. However, I digress. You are the second reason that I¡¯m moving this topic into the Cultural and Language sub-forum, so that members that don¡¯t go to Twisted Candle and guests can read it. The questions you asked of me and your confusion, are the same reason that with my educational background have and always be condemned as a ¡°Doubting Thomas!¡± My thanks are especially given to you. The reader can see my past experiences and time in the Orient in the first hyperlink, and can read/reviewed at the reader¡¯s leisure. Therefore, will not rehash this aspect ad nauseam. In five years of marriage/courtship/engagement with my own wife, I have seen differences in the following areas: 1 ) Language and Idea Perceptions. 2 ) Cultural Values of Both Genders. 3 ) Sex and Love & Roles of the Genders in a Society. 4 ) Money and Personal Value Systems. These areas may be easily perceived with a bit of question to our partners. After this it gets harder. I will use my wife and myself as a test case sample, so I don¡¯t insult anyone. For the reader¡¯s clarification, I will use a 1 to 10 scale for ease of understanding. 1 being the lowest and very few ever reach here and 10 being (e.g. a Hardcore, CCP (Chinese Communist Party member) that will never change. Again, very few will reach this extreme or you wouldn¡¯t be having a relationship today! Language and Idea Perceptions. Each couple establishes their own unique language. There is nothing unusual about this in the least and is expected to do. Not only by the couple, it also expected of society at large, so that members of the society function as a well-oiled clock. However, this language is unique among couples. What my wife and I discuss and how is stated is unique to our relationship and wouldn¡¯t be understood by others people interacting with us. This is a commonality with all couples. They all have their own unique language between themselves. This is something like Pig Latin that we as children leaned. Good for throwing the outside listener off, but conveying confidential information to a ¡°knowing listener.¡± Today, how many people use Pig Latin as a communication device? However, with an intercultural marriage, ¡°Pig Latin¡± is formulated between loving marrying couples. It is glibly here in CFL referred to as "chinglish" and has many, many variations. I may know some terms that another couple use, but I will never know the fine meanings of words, between another couple. The language will change even as far as that you become a ¡°half-breed,¡± and think Chinese logic and face with you wife and/or vice versa. with outsiders from your new family. After two or three years of a relationship, the spoken words are not needed to be between the couple. My own wife will ask me to shut the shades because it is too bright. She waves her hand and states ¡°Langoun, ¡°Churr, Churr ching!¡± This is our language. Not yours. We understand it clearly, but others do not. This is the true inter-mixing of an intercultural Chinese/American relationship/marriage. I will take a lot of work on both people¡¯s part. If the reader for one minute thinks that this is easy, they have a crock-pot full of troubles coming their way. The ideas that are psychologically imprinted of both people minds, from their respective cultures are immense and extremely powerful. The imprints of either may be altered and/or modified. If the reader thinks that a Chinese woman/man has changed what their culture has already impressed on them for 20 years plus¡­.Well let us simply state that you are in for one, big fat F-king surprise! BTW, may I mention the imprinted images that your own family and whatever society have against the couple? As an example, I personally know of one man that met a woman that is an absolute knockout. I have seen here photo and she would easily rate an 8 out of 10! He has now established a relationship that both his fianc¨¦e and he love each other very much. A past relationship bellied up on him and he met her. At the risk of sounding like I¡¯m protelyzing, this is a true gift from God. He asked where she was from and received a so-so response. After a bit more questioning she stated that she was from Fujian. BTW, we talked on the telephone and she whispered the answer in the case that someone was listening outside of the house windows! LOL! This woman is highly afraid of the US prejudice directed at her, due to her home province. Wasn¡¯t this posted on recently? This thought that she had learned in the culture she was in, stereotypes from China, and later exacerbated in the US, bothered her so much and almost compounded her very bright future with a man that truly loved her as a woman. Not someone from Fujian province! This is what I mean by ideas that are imprinted and learned by the individual, no matter what culture. If the reader thinks for one damn second, that these ill conceived imprinted and/or learned ideas are not present in the US and/or China; then in IMHO, you have been living in a walnut shell, under a nearby walnut tree. These issues will arise later in your marriage. It is not a matter of will they rise up? Rather, the real question is when they will rise up? IMHO, you better find out the preconceived ideas and notions and I mean before you marry. There is one other aspect idea perceptions that should be raised and right now. Western men hold onto your hats! Chinese women hate! And I mean absolutely hate, being controlled. They have been held as second-class citizens for so long and taking back seat to the men it is beginning to really piss them off. Don¡¯t even tell my wife the quotation of Mao-tze-Tung that women hold up half of the sky! Today¡¯s Chinese women, IMHO and with my wife, expect their husbands to be the breadwinners. However, unless you are asleep at the wheel, they want to have a definite say in family matters. The reader can research and Google this to their will. You will see many, many articles that show that the modern Chinese woman is taking a new role in the family. Most esp. in China. With my own wife she desires a subservient role to me as the husband and primary breadwinner for the lack of a better term and relates herself as an advisor and wife. However! Make no mistake! She (Chinese women) want her opinions known and to be listened to and respected as worthy ideas! In my own family I have always respected her opinion. Not at first, until I skinned my knees more than a few time of societies cement! Now I listen to her as a valued adviser to me. What better person to give advice, than someone who loves you, has a vested interest in the outcome, truly values for the benefits that come to her family (BTW, the children that you may adopt! Ever play with a momma bear and her cubs?), and you show her true respect to her culture and to your wife. BTW men! Some of the ideas may be ill thought out, won¡¯t work in certain circumstances, haven¡¯t taken into account all current circumstances, the circumstances of a particular culture, etc, etc. However! You damn well better sit down and treat those ideas as gold and respect them and have a straight face when you discuss them! BTW, in my own marriage, I enjoy back-briefing my own wife as to my career field and she always has some good insight or suggestions. Not all are good (approximately 55%), but there is a lot of wheat under the chaff too. Many men think this sounds a bit effeminate to you. IMHO, with western women you would absolutely be correct. However, with a Chinese woman this is what they are seeking, unless they are seeking a green-card ride. Why did the Chinese woman first start looking for a Westerner in the first place? Your fantastic looks? In my own case, my wife sought a person that was funny, had honor, fidelity, and most of all respect for her. I was fortunate and had all the attributes that I stated previously. The relationship developed from there. I will tell you right now that I have only failed her once and I was heartily sorry for it and punish myself more than anyone could. There will be no repeat of this. However, this is a private matter, between us. The point being is that the both of you will fail and need to be forgiving to each other, for the other person¡¯s faults. This is why we have lasted as long as we have. I assure you that both of us still have much to learn. The previous stated ideas actually led to her first divorce. Not infidelity! Not a mistress! It was her role in the Chinese family and the control that was forced onto her. I should mention that Chinese stereotypes are still there, not likely to disappear anytime in the near future. Her ex-husband is not at fault! It was the societal expectations that had been imprinted on him from birth as a Chinese man and are still on going today although, at a lesser scale. The same ideas are preconceptions are there. Before, I seem to be denigrating to my wife¡¯s ex-husband; all of us, including his new wife, have had dinner together, attended other social functions together and his new family is always invited. (I wish I could get a job at his corporation. He works with the PRC Treasury, printing Chinese RMB.) He is very good man and my wife will state so. Therefore, I don¡¯t hate him or insult him in the least. He simply didn¡¯t match up to the standards that a new Chinese woman is developing today. However, gentlemen read between the lines of what I have stated and research your own lives and relationships. Where did you think my observations of the Sichuan Prejudiced Chef, Free Range Chickens come from? Yu need to have humor and love with your marriage. Just accept her with an open heart and mind. Both of you will survive, albeit not without a few bumps and bruises along the way though! It is basic understanding of you new Chinese relationship, which makes each relationship so unique. What works for us, may not work for you. Please use my ideas as insight and possible other avenues. This leads the both of you to set your own goals, aspirations and game plans. I can¡¯t make it simpler than this. I assure you, that your goals will be so different from each other, they seem to be as night compared to day. Whome? and others; this is the first cultural difference that you have not seen yet. I assure you that it is there and will always be there. It is very hard to eliminate these feelings from both people. That is why I sent you the questions that I did. ¡°A burnt child fears the stove!¡± I assure you that I have been burnt! That is why, I sent you the questions and implore other members and you, to ask why and why do you feel this way to each other. BTW, she/he deserves the same answers and believe me it takes a lot of soul searching of yourself to understand the answers! The answers you receive will at times shock you and will run contrary to traditional Western logic. However, this is your new wife and new relationship. This topic is open for discussion and is a very serious matter. I truly hope to hear from the women's perspective and the men's also. I will close for now and make a new segment in the next few days. Please understand; this is only what makes my relationship tick and not written in stone. Remember; this is your wife and/or husband! Not mine. The both of you need to set your own guidelines. Dave

Thanks Dylan, You are absolutely correct; OUMC from OKC! I forgot! My bad! I apologize slightly...My wife and I left in OKC back in 2006, for a new career in San Diego. God the beaches, 75 degree weather in wintertime really sucks here! Tomorrow afternoon I'm planning on sitting by the pool, working o my tan and reading professional NDT manuals ( I truly only expect 10 minutes of serious reading and the next 45 minutes of a napping). When I left OK, my wife and I did the following in order to relieve our "sorrow:" 1) I had T-shirts screen-printed front and the back with the words..... Happiness is Oklahoma... in my rear view mirror 2) My wife and I stood at the western border of OK and sold them. We sold all 250 of them of them in two hours! These were tourists leaving westward out of Oklahoma! Made $750! Paid for the gas and food on our way to California. So I suppose that OK isn't all that bad! 3) Here is a joke for you...... Q: Why does Texas stay where it is? A: Because Oklahoma sucks and keeps Texas where it should be as a part of the US! I suspect a scathing response. Please give me some new joke of California I haven't heard yet. OK? In all seriousness; I have some very fond memories of Oklahoma. Where did the topic "Sichuan Prejudiced Chef" and free range chickens arise from? Oklahoma! Take care. I just love poking fun at a "natural" Okie. The only problem that I have with Oklahoma is how the Sooners turn out the last season! By God, the Sooners will be PO'd this year. I always watch and follow them them closely. The problem seems to be the away games or when they fall asleep to a sleeper team. However, back to the OP. Thanks for the correction Dave

Bryon, Hate to be the "Prophet of Doom;" however, the chances of making "doable" are very slim. I did a quick Internet search and I found one link, to drive the point home. I didn't want belabor the point with you and leave you thinking I was kicking a good man with the problems that you are having, with huge amount of links to drive a stake through the heart. Here is the link: http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Green%20Ca...ences/ref/1185/ I knew two Chinese (husband & wife) people that fell under these guidelines and believe me, these guidelines are nothing to be sneezed at! One (wife) is a research biological-gene specialist at Oklahoma State University Hospital, OKC. The other (husband) is working for another doctorate degree to enhance his current Phd (from China) at the Univ of OK, in Norman, OK. I believe that he was developing "breaking ground" scientific research for vaccines developed within test animals and later to be administered with healthy animals to prevent anthrax, Hoof and Mouth disease, New Castle disease, and I believe that he was working with goats to develop a new rabies vaccine (can't really remember this point), etc. Just to make a small point, I understand Pharmokenisis (movement and metabolization of drugs within the human body). I got the surface of the subject, but after 15 minutes of our conversation; I was lost in the deep dark waters he was talking about! Both of them are currently on Work visas and the US Govt, if I followed what they were saying, are requesting that they apply for immigrant status. Can't say for sure here. However, have you ever heard of the "brain drain" from one country to another? I think that you get my point. This is probably very true with the recent protectionist stance the US is taking as to foreign workers, in these economic times, and then the foreign national having a working visa entering the US and in an environment that is laying people off like crazy? In short, an accountant, govt clerk, paralegal, etc, etc, etc isn't going to make the grade and required standards. I do applaud your thinking "outside of the box." There is always more than one way to skin a cat. LOL However, the choice is ultimately up to you. Dave The H2b is the way to go the H1b would be to hard she can do maid work in a hotel. She is not looking for a green card way of a work visa only temporary work that nobody wants so she can stay with me while she waits for her K3 visa interview in Ho Chi Minh This is same site you pointed out but I clicked on the H2B visa and here is what it says http://www.h1base.com/content/h2bvisa The H2B visa is a great way for people who want to temporarily live in the USA, working in seasonal and fun jobs. If you want to travel to America and work over the Summer in a hotel, theme park or on a cruise ship, or if you want to work in a restaurant or as a ski instructor over the Winter - this is the visa for you. Types of H2B Visa Jobs / H2B Work includes: Hospitality workers, Hotels / Motels, Chefs, Resorts and Theme Parks, Ticket Sales, Cruise ships, Construction workers, Maintenance, Janitorial, Ski Resorts, Landscaping, Golf Courses, Water parks, Security, Ride Operators, Restaurants and bars, Warehouse, Retail Stores[/b] I quote myself again "....This is probably very true with the recent protectionist stance the US is taking as to foreign workers, in these economic times, and then the foreign national having a working visa entering the US and in an environment that is laying people off like crazy?..." 20,000 state employees in CA are about to get lay-off notices, since the budget wasn't passed by one vote. And you hope to get a H2B visa for you wife to the US, in this economic environment? My own wife and I both live in California, and she is worried about the amount and/or laid off unemployed, that are vying with her for a single position, her being Chinese or not Is this the where you plan on hanging your "hat" from? Like I stated before; the choice is your fiancees and yours only. I wish you the very best. May I suggest that you research outside of the box, into other sites? Perhaps, there are other ways out of the mouse trap? Dave

Bryon, Hate to be the "Prophet of Doom;" however, the chances of making "doable" are very slim. I did a quick Internet search and I found one link, to drive the point home. I didn't want belabor the point with you and leave you thinking I was kicking a good man with the problems that you are having, with huge amount of links to drive a stake through the heart. Here is the link: http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Green%20Ca...ences/ref/1185/ I knew two Chinese (husband & wife) people that fell under these guidelines and believe me, these guidelines are nothing to be sneezed at! One (wife) is a research biological-gene specialist at Oklahoma State University Hospital, OKC. The other (husband) is working for another doctorate degree to enhance his current Phd (from China) at the Univ of OK, in Norman, OK. I believe that he was developing "breaking ground" scientific research for vaccines developed within test animals and later to be administered with healthy animals to prevent anthrax, Hoof and Mouth disease, New Castle disease, and I believe that he was working with goats to develop a new rabies vaccine (can't really remember this point), etc. Just to make a small point, I understand Pharmokenisis (movement and metabolization of drugs within the human body). I got the surface of the subject, but after 15 minutes of our conversation; I was lost in the deep dark waters he was talking about! Both of them are currently on Work visas and the US Govt, if I followed what they were saying, are requesting that they apply for immigrant status. Can't say for sure here. However, have you ever heard of the "brain drain" from one country to another? I think that you get my point. This is probably very true with the recent protectionist stance the US is taking as to foreign workers, in these economic times, and then the foreign national having a working visa entering the US and in an environment that is laying people off like crazy? In short, an accountant, govt clerk, paralegal, etc, etc, etc isn't going to make the grade and required standards. I do applaud your thinking "outside of the box." There is always more than one way to skin a cat. LOL However, the choice is ultimately up to you. Dave

Whome, Definitely agree. Same problem with LA or SF. Stray bullets are during New Years are rampant. Kind of sad that Beijing lowered the fire standards during a good part of the year and ended up with a building loss. You can hear the voices now. Beijing and/or CCP is too tight and constrains our freedom during our Chinese New Year and celebration. Hence, Beijing went liberal and ended up with one lost building, not to mention insurance costs to the builder, economic impact, the loss of jobs to construction workers at the site and future employees, etc, etc, etc.

It was being built. Probably wrapped in that green fabric they use to keep dust down? Ah, you're probably right. For some reason I thought it was farther along. Yep, that green stuff would go up fast. How about the normal solvents, paint, and/or other normal flammables found in any construction site? The sad part is that the Beijing city government, released normal firework controls for the Chinese New Year. I suppose that hind-sight is 20-20. Foresight, is 20-400. Whatever reason; seems very sad. Not a has a single guest checked in yet, and goes up in flames. Very sad. And ya have to wonder what they'll do now. Will the concrete shell that's left even be usable? Will they have to tear down the whole thing and start from scratch? What a waste. Speaking from a nondestructive testing technology; Doubtful. Concrete has been exposed to temperature extremes and most probably went beyond what is would be considered safe load bearing levels, by any sane engineer. Same as the reinforcing rebar within the concrete. How could you test it to insure peak efficiency to insure it met building load standards just to keep the building erect later (5 to 10 years as a minimum)? The Twin Towers in 9/11 suffered the same fate when the terrorists crashed their jets into it. The flame retardant on rebars and/or main steel superstructure was stripped away, high heat was applied to the steel and the buildings sadly collapsed. I looked at photos today of the building when I saw the news. The building had the superstructure installed and floors were installed around the superstructure. However, no walls. I strongly suspect that the heat would have been direct against the superstructure and the concrete surrounding them. Therefore, what happened to the concrete also affected the rebar within the concrete. You cannot check for one, without checking the other that is already encased in the concrete. Hence, you have to break the concrete loose to check the steel superstructure Once the metallurgy of the steel and temperature of the concrete had been altered, no sane engineer would ever pass this building as "sound." Somehow, I suspect that the projected estimated costs will go right out of sight. Fire effected areas will have to be totally removed and rebuilt. Hopefully, since fire travels upwards; only the top floors at the upper extremities will have to be replaced. Not the entire building. I suspect not a total loss. What I have missed and looked for; was their any loss of life? I haven't seen anything. Any word? I do have one prayer.... Lord, Let the loss of life be minimal, and give comfort to the builders in their time of need. Thanks are to you, that hopefully no one was killed. Lord, one final request that no comparison is made of shoddy work Chinese workmanship, subterfuge about Chinese bricks be made from this fire, or affiliation to the Sichauan earthquake in school buildings and shoddy workmanship. Amen. Dave

I walked across the street today by myself! I recognized the walk signals too! I did feel a little bit lonely though without some to hold my hand. How does Africa strike you? Uganda, Kenya, Rhodesia, Namibia, Egypt, Morocco, Chad, Sudan and Nigeria strike your fancy? 47 countries under my belt, wars in 6 of them, to add to my travel plans Man! Toot, I wish I could have covered 48 states. I'm so jealous of you! BTW lived in Korea for 9 Years, two ex-Korean wives, speak, read and write Korean. Anyong-hae-cashipso, or is said in Japan; Sayonnarha = Please come again. BTW, I did want to ask how did you take no plane to Japan? I was a bit slow in Geography. The last time I looked Japan was surrounded by water. Ohhhh! I got! A slow boat from China, merchant Marine, or you were a sailor! Did you enter China where you met your wife the same way? Toot; I may believe that you are pushing the envelope a bit for CFL members. There are many that have traveled as much as I have traveled and definitely more than you, and used aerospace. I know that I have 47 countries under my belt, in six continents. I haven't made Antarctica yet. May I ask politely what is your point? Are you endorsing sea travel, taxi, or other cost efficient means of travel? Or perhaps there is another point that myself and I'm sure others, are missing. Would you elaborate? Here is a good question for you. Travel is nice. How many have you lived in on the ground so to speak? Dave

Your company hiring? Dave Yep! Remember this thread I made for CFL members? I posted it for CFL members so that they did NOT have to be tutors as a sideline. http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...c=28848&hl=, and they had an access to opportunities that I have had. Now economic times have changed the rules of the game. This is worldwide! General Electric was doing a hell of a lot of hiring. As was Shanghai Buick, Boeing (which personally, I don't trust any farther than I could throw them. They are in my wife's hometown of Wenjiang. Have you ever noticed the same recurrent labor disputes every three to four years? Seems to be a very good way of trimming anyone considered "deadwood" and/or cost-expeditious for management to cut costs. Nice tidy way around union contracts ), etc, etc. As I stated in my previous post, these jobs are drying up quickly. Overseas employment comes down to the bottom line: You have to have a particular niche or something highly desired to make it. No ifs, and or buts about it! Personally, myself I find it personally abhorrent to have to rely on my wife's paycheck to support us. No insult is intended to other members, that may find themselves in this situation. I have placed myself in the bread-winner role and consider I would consider it is a personal insult to have my face and pride taken from me. However; this is just me. My wife and I have taken a "hunkering -down" stance in San Diego. We have our opinions the best living place in the US, the best weather and societal cultures, fishing, with a very good job for myself, although she gets really pissed off about us visiting "zona norte" in Tijuana for the best deals! She still calls everyday to insure I'm being a good boy and been shopping there! Personally......I suspect she is calling to check if I answer the telephone at home! Chinese love and jealousy is a very "strange beast!" We discussed going to China no longer than 2 weeks ago. She basically asked me if I was crazy? I was basically "violated" and/or lambasted about how bad it was getting in China. I suspect that the world has NOT seen how bad it will get, esp. in China. Hence, my comment about the 6-month time frame. Like I said to Toot; sending someone out to make their way as a "free-lance" English teacher ain't gonna make it, and is in my opinion sheer lunacy! However, I leave the choice to them. The US as far as I last heard; is a free country for individual choices. You want an overseas position, privately PM me. I'm absolutely confidential. I will try to connect you. However, I see many that; "Talk the talk. But they don't walk the walk!" with mundane dribble about this or that, love of their SOs or some other such crap. What was he Chinese proverb? Be careful of what you wish for. You may just be granted your wish. I don't want to stray to far from the OP and Toot. Toot; you and your friend have much to think about. Becoming a a stranded cast-away in China with no funds is no laughing matter. I assure you that the US embassy or whoever that foots the bill will not be laughing as will the local CCP and/or the CNP. I simply suggest that the both of you think carefully about this action. Dave

It was being built. Probably wrapped in that green fabric they use to keep dust down? Ah, you're probably right. For some reason I thought it was farther along. Yep, that green stuff would go up fast. How about the normal solvents, paint, and/or other normal flammables found in any construction site? The sad part is that the Beijing city government, released normal firework controls for the Chinese New Year. I suppose that hind-sight is 20-20. Foresight, is 20-400. Whatever reason; seems very sad. Not a has a single guest checked in yet, and goes up in flames.

Nope. Its safe I tell you. Safer than walking down to the corner store to buy a quart of milk. You can certainly be cheated out of money,or lied to about 'we will fix your visa' over and over again. Anybody looking to spend 3 to 6 months in China can do a bit of English teaching in a small town or village,just throw a dart at a map. In larger cities you can get $10 or $20 for hour long private tutoring sessions if you are good at it. This is small change. My Mexican friend has NEVER BEEN TO AMERICA,yet he told them he was a 'native English speaker',then led DIRECTLY to a classroom full of students. Of course thats the extreme. Its very safe,even for a college age single young woman to backpack alone just about anywhere in China. Nobody likes those filthy dreadlock hippy backpackers,usually found in SE Asia,but the backpacker style travel books are used by all kinds of people. Even stupid people can travel safely in China if they just follow their travel book. "Independent Traveler" can be used if you feel ashamed to call yourself a 'backpacker'. Toot, Just to throw my 2 cents in here. We/others/me have had the same opportunities in Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc, etc. I'm a former ex-pat and military and I did the same things with teaching English on the side to supplement my paycheck, albeit I wasn't a backpacker. I was actually stationed or employed in these countries, and this is how I had the "opportunities" thrown to me. However, this was a while back (~6 years) In today's economic times, I wouldn't go wagering my last paycheck on a successful outcome . I highly suspect that these countries are also pulling in their "collective horns," and are worrying about day-to-day expenses. As an example, my wife is in Chengdu right now. In 2004 through 2006, we would see people line up from the country just to have the opportunity to apply and/or work as a housekeeper, servant, dishwasher, etc, whatever. Basically, anything they could do to supplement their country income. I talked no longer than 4 nights ago with her, and those same lines I spoke of previously, have virtually disappeared. I highly suspect that they (applicants) have decided that a roof over their head, ability to grow food, have a family network was their highest economic priority. This same proof is borne out by several other posts about migrant workers and employment/economic conditions in China today. IMHO, China's economic situation is only 6-months or so, behind what is happening to the US today. I personally believe that all "frills and nice-to-have" items are being cut out of Chinese family budgets. English speaking is a "frill" and an unnecessary expense, from middle-class and downward. These skills won't put any "beans on the table" for the family. Therefore, I suspect that this market will dry up very quickly for a freelance teacher. To be honest I understand your intent towards your friend. However, I would also like and many others be very hesitant to place a friends or my head on a chopping block, wagering that they can make money this way and survive. Just my opinion and the both of you are free to make your own choices. I should mention that a few of us can move very quickly to the China and survive and make a very decent living. I'm one of the fortunate ones, that wouldn't have to have a side-line of English tutoring to supplement my income. However, I can ABSOLUTELY assure you that Ex-pat positions with Boeing, GE and many others, are drying up at a phenomenal rate. Large US and/or German, etc corporations that out-source to China and/or the collective Far East, are getting out of the market damned quick! This is directly due to the economic conditions world-wide. I highly suspect that English tutoring will also suffer a similar fate and follow soon. The tutors that survive, will be the one's in tenured positions, major college or state sponsored universities. After all; they (Chinese students and rich at that, and/or their parents are rich) are in school and they have the money to afford this luxury. After this; all bets are off. I think you may have missed a point that Richard & Li was attempting to make. No one was speaking of "dreadlocked" hippies and the ilk. "Backpackers" (BTW; a sterotype) are looked down my many Chinese since they screw their culture up and represent a loss of face, since no Chinese would ever travel this manner. This is simply out of the cultural norm for many Chinese. I don't make the rules for the basketball game, it is not my basketball and not my basketball court. Therefore, backpackers and the both us us are "playing on a Chinese basketball court!" Guess whose rules apply? Don't like the Chinese rules? Carry your sorry-ass off the court and find a game somewhere else! In short; "go along to get along!" Like I stated. Richard and I, and/or anyone else; except the Chinese make the rules. My wife and I have seen "backpackers," many times in hotpot restaurants, malls, stores, movie theaters, operas, book stores, etc, etc. My own wife hates them since they (generally speaking) are loud and obnoxious, create disharmony in Chinese restaurants, tea houses and the public at large with their inane questions and overly loud comments about how this sucks or that sucks and/or Chinese people are terrible, and finally male members "hitting" on Chinese women with the "Lonely Travel Guide" in their hand (I have personally witnessed this and had my wife hit on while I was standing right there. WTF? A 6' 7" foot, 300 pound man, ex-military Ranger, and you want to hit on his wife right in front of him? May I suggest, that I took a bit unkindly to this. He decided to leave; right after I had my way with him. I loved it! He hated it! As is is said in Vietnam; "sin loi!" ) Chinese detest people like this and right them on an evolutionary scale right between worms and slugs. Therefore, I know exactly where Richard and my own wife is speaking of. If it is any consolation; the largest violators were Brit's and/or Ozzies. Germans followed closely behind. Most US backpackers were curious and overtly loud through lack of intelligence and Chinese societal/cultural expectations. Dave

Esun, Nope not implying anything in the least. This is everyone's individual choice, You have yours, others have their choices and I have mine. I know this has been discussed before and that is exactly why Zack was double checking. A very prudent course of action, IMHO Here is a re-post of travelers to and from China and importation. http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation...tsandVegetables BTW all; many Chinese medicines have mushrooms in some of them. You will find fungi (mushrooms) under biological sub-segment. Esun, just for clarity, individual baked goods are allowed up to certain restrictions. I have never carried them before, so you know more about this area than I do. I should mention that the place my wife was stopped with the orange was in Chicago's O'Hare International airport. This should be on interest to Zack, being that he hails from Illinois. Dave

Yeah! Right until the time that a dog nails you with the goodies with his nose! That is when the party starts! No one is guilty of DUI either until the cops pull you over. However, we are all men. What others choose to do, is their business and not mine. However, as a side point my wife asked the question what was the big deal. Darling, what about a large hefty fine? That shut her up quick! BTW, no flame intended. Members have the choice for themselves! Dave

Zack, Not in the least is the scroll contraband. I have been through Chicago at least four times and LAX three times. The only time you really run into problems is bringing fresh produce, meats, extreme antiquities (and these are caught in China!), etc into the US. Your scroll may get a passing glance if you are lucky. Customs agents might question you in regard to Chinese dried medicinal drugs and teas. The drugs I never carry, since I can get them here in San Diego and isn't worth the hassle. For the teas, simply showed the agents a vacuum sealed bag and they will wave you on. BTW, no plants, seeds or fruit is allowed. They have little cute beagles that walk around looking for foodstuffs of every nature. My wife arrived and a cute little dog (her terminology) stopped and alerted on her hand carried bag for one orange, she brought to eat on the flight. Customs Officer gave her the mandatory ass-chewing, threatened her with a fine, relinquished the fine and was satisfied after the orange was disposed of with a verbal warning. The largest problem I have ever had was when Chinese customs stopped me once and wanted to see the same item you mentioned, that my uncle painted for my wife to take to the US. The spent most of their time ooowing and ahhhing, are you married to a Chinese woman?, etc, etc. I have never had a problem with US customs, with the items I mentioned above. Dave