Endearing vs Eloquent

[Jeikun]

I've seen many posts over the last couple of months related to the "endearing" way many of our fiancees and wives speak English. Most recently the China-isms thread. I laughed along with most of them, but it also got me wondering about a couple of things.

 

First, for those of you who's loved one has been in the US for some time, how difficult has it been for her/him to improve their English, how quickly have they progressed, classes or just immersion, what are their ambitions in that area, etc.?

 

Secondly, how do they react to you finding their mispronunciations and/or gramatical and syntax errors endearing? Do they laugh along? Feel embarassed? Get angry? Do they learn the right way and then keep saying it the "wrong" way to you as an in-joke, or immediatly change and never say it that way again?

 

Jun has a good sense of humor about it, and doesn't get upset - she laughs along, but I also know it frustrates her a little. So I point it out, we laugh, and then I tell her the right way and we move on.

 

Jun is a writer. She writes scripts, advertisements, poems, and short stories. She is very eloquent and expressive in Chinese. It frustrates her at times that she is sometimes reduced to the speaking level of a child when speaking and writing in English. She worries that she will never develop the mastery of English that she has of Chinese, or that it will take a very long time.

 

Despite my occasional misspellings and typical lazy American English from time to time, I like to think that my level in English is a near match for her level in Chinese, and I hope that will allow me to help her. I know Jun is a very dedicated person, and her frustration at her English level will fuel her commitment to improving. I would like to see her abilities in English come to match her abilities in Chinese one day. Not for me, but for the pride and confidence I know it will give her.

 

I've already been looking into ESL classes in the area. What she needs is "advanced" ESL, and those classes are a little more scarce. It seems that "Beginner" and "Intermediate" are sufficient for day to day life, and even college admission - but I know a beginner class would be pointless for her, and an intermediate class would quickly become no challenge and boring. An advanced class would help to expose her to many of the more advanced concepts, that aren't used on a day to day basis even by us, and a "layman" would be hard pressed to explain the "whys of it" to satisfaction.

 

One challenge for me, is that I was always raised to believe that correcting someone's English is rude. Meaning no disrespect to my southern brethren, but the oppertunity to do just that abounds here. So, I've conditioned myself over the years to not say anything as long as I understand the meaning of what is being said (unless it's funny). Now I have to unlearn that, and recognize that Jun WANTS to be corrected. When she says "I wish I didn't make a bad decision" I have to point out that to most people that would mean that you know you've made a bad decision, and are now regretting it. What she meant was "I hope I haven't made a bad decision."

 

This is why I don't post "Jun-isms" here. I would feel a little guilty about it. I'm not saying anyone here should - that's not my point. Everyone's relationships and situations are different. I may find some of her pronunciations or mistakes cute or funny from time to time, but it's my duty to correct them so she never says them unless she wants to do it intentionally to make me laugh.

 

I can understand her position, because we feel pretty much the same on the issue. I wouldn't mind my loved one finding my way of talking funny, cute, or endearing - but to the public I would be mortified if this were the image I were projecting of myself. I want to be seen as articulate, intelligent, and educated. Not as a "cute wittle guy". Unfortunately, I think the whole "JP" thing is something I'll never shake here... that's ok though I've come to kind of like it. (My apologies to Trigg for my less-than-favorable initial reaction)

 

Anyway I'm just curious if anyone would like to share their various opinions on all of this, their loved ones outlook, and what they have/will/are doing in the ESL department.

 

Thanks!!

[Phil & Ningning]

Jason, thank you for this post. I too, have sometimes felt a bit of guilt when I don't correct Jiening's English, because I know she wants me to. It can be a hard thing to do because in most cases it is very rude, as you pointed out. I have tried to explain why sometimes I don't.... Usually, it is because I want to hear what she has to say. I don't like to interrupt her train of thought. We do make a good time of it, but I also know that she becomes very frustrated when she cannot express herself as well as she would like.

She is practicing by herself at home in China as well as the little things we talk about on the phone. Every night she spends time reading the English newspaper before bed, and she also tries to watch tv programs in English from time to time. This self-study shows. Quite often I realize that she has begun using a phrase or word correctly where before she would have said it differently. Ningning is also a very determined and capable young woman.

The last thing I would ever want is for Ningning to embarrass herself in public when I could have helped her to prevent it. I made a promise to her that I will protect her feelings, and I believe this includes doing everything I can to help her improve her English skills. She is very special in that she is able to laugh at herself, but also very normal in that she does not want others laughing at her.

[eeyore]

I confess, I posted a few Lan-isums that I love to hear.

 

There is so much slang in American english. We use American-isums all the time, uncluding the term China-isums.

 

I do not correct my sweetie as of yet but may try to help her a little before she comes to the states. Fortunately, for me and for her, she speaks english very well.

[warpedbored]

Bing wants me to correct her grammar as well. She is doing quite well in ESL classes. For the most part her pronunciation is pretty good but her vocabulary is too small. She is learning fast though and I believe that within a year she will be fairly fluent in English. I confess that I dont correct her as much as I should but she concentrates so hard to make sentences that I hate to interupt her train of thought. Besides it is endearing. We both chuckle over "Home People' and even though she now knows quite well it is Home Depot we still call it Home People.

[sylinchinastill]

Hengli's English is very good- he went to a better University than I could ever hope to go to but still there are times when he says the wrong thing- and I correct him- since I also speak Chinese he has plenty of chances to correct me as well and it is reciprocal. When we were in my hometown my Mom and Step-dad would always scold me and say that they got the point of what he said- but Hengli doesn't want people to just get the point- he wants them to understand the whole thing. This fall he wants to take the first English class we take in college- you know- the five paragraph- five papers class- and I think that will be good for him- unlike most Chinese- his written English is much worse than his spoken English- so he will learn to write and also hear people talk in class. I think this will be better than an Advanced ESL class- where he would hear all non-native speakers.

[Robert S.]

This thread needs to be revived. It just deserves to be brought up to the top again so lots of people can see it that never saw it the first time.

[HanLi]

I've seen many posts over the last couple of months related to the "endearing" way many of our fiancees and wives speak English.  Most recently the China-isms thread.  I laughed along with most of them, but it also got me wondering about a couple of things.

 

First, for those of you who's loved one has been in the US for some time, how difficult has it been for her/him to improve their English, how quickly have they progressed, classes or just immersion, what are their ambitions in that area, etc.?

 

Secondly, how do they react to you finding their mispronunciations and/or gramatical and syntax errors endearing?  Do they laugh along?  Feel embarassed?  Get angry?  Do they learn the right way and then keep saying it the "wrong" way to you as an in-joke, or immediatly change and never say it that way again?

 

Jun has a good sense of humor about it, and doesn't get upset - she laughs along, but I also know it frustrates her a little.  So I point it out, we laugh, and then I tell her the right way and we move on.

 

Jun is a writer.  She writes scripts, advertisements, poems, and short stories.  She is very eloquent and expressive in Chinese.  It frustrates her at times that she is sometimes reduced to the speaking level of a child when speaking and writing in English.  She worries that she will never develop the mastery of English that she has of Chinese, or that it will take a very long time.

 

Despite my occasional misspellings and typical lazy American English from time to time, I like to think that my level in English is a near match for her level in Chinese, and I hope that will allow me to help her.  I know Jun is a very dedicated person, and her frustration at her English level will fuel her commitment to improving.  I would like to see her abilities in English come to match her abilities in Chinese one day.  Not for me, but for the pride and confidence I know it will give her.

 

I've already been looking into ESL classes in the area.  What she needs is "advanced" ESL, and those classes are a little more scarce.  It seems that "Beginner" and "Intermediate" are sufficient for day to day life, and even college admission - but I know a beginner class would be pointless for her, and an intermediate class would quickly become no challenge and boring.  An advanced class would help to expose her to many of the more advanced concepts, that aren't used on a day to day basis even by us, and a "layman" would be hard pressed to explain the "whys of it" to satisfaction.

 

One challenge for me, is that I was always raised to believe that correcting someone's English is rude.  Meaning no disrespect to my southern brethren, but the oppertunity to do just that abounds here.  So, I've conditioned myself over the years to not say anything as long as I understand the meaning of what is being said (unless it's funny).  Now I have to unlearn that, and recognize that Jun WANTS to be corrected.  When she says "I wish I didn't make a bad decision"  I have to point out that to most people that would mean that you know you've made a bad decision, and are now regretting it.  What she meant was "I hope I haven't made a bad decision."

 

This is why I don't post "Jun-isms" here.  I would feel a little guilty about it.  I'm not saying anyone here should - that's not my point.  Everyone's relationships and situations are different.  I may find some of her pronunciations or mistakes cute or funny from time to time, but it's my duty to correct them so she never says them unless she wants to do it intentionally to make me laugh.

 

I can understand her position, because we feel pretty much the same on the issue.  I wouldn't mind my loved one finding my way of talking funny, cute, or endearing - but to the public I would be mortified if this were the image I were projecting of myself.  I want to be seen as articulate, intelligent, and educated.  Not as a "cute wittle guy".  Unfortunately, I think the whole "JP" thing is something I'll never shake here... that's ok though I've come to kind of like it.   (My apologies to Trigg for my less-than-favorable initial reaction)

 

Anyway I'm just curious if anyone would like to share their various opinions on all of this, their loved ones outlook, and what they have/will/are doing in the ESL department.

 

Thanks!!

68923[/snapback]

Jason,

You made some excellent points here, I think you are on the right path. My only suggestion would be to enter her in a local community college class on remedial English, same as most students take that show weakness in fluency as well as grammar.

[david_dawei]

Jason,

 

How about a one year later update ??

[natrigon]

Jason,

 

How about a one year later update ??

137256[/snapback]

I know you were not asking me but thought you might be interested in our one year update...

 

Mei had about 5 months of English classes in China. The only good thing about them is the really drilled her on the ABC's. She had no English in school and she is now 42. When she came to the US her grammar was terrible. The school she went to in China was also terrible. I met the teacher and he was Chinese and could not speak very well at all.

 

When I moved to CA in April of 2004 I opened a bank account for us at East-West bank. There are a lot of Chinese workers there and as I hoped she made some friends there. Through those friendships she found a school downtown LA (near my work) that is free. She attends class from 10:00 - 3:30 5 days a week.

 

I am happy to say her english is good now. More importantly than her speaking ability her comprehension is good. Before when asking a question often she would not realize it was a question. She asks me to correct her English and I ask her to correct my Chinese speech. We often joke with each other when we say things wrong that have different meanings. For some reason she used to say "jumpin" instead of "pinch"... just funny, I guess you had to be there.

 

In my experience Chinese people are not sensitive to correction or forthright statements at all. When she saw her sister last time in China, in front of the whole family she said "Why are you so fat". Everybody including the sister laughed. Often in the US if we met a family member that gained weight we would lie and say "you look great". Culture differences. I think Chinese are just more bluntly honest, often with absolutely no mean intentions.

 

So she went through English 1A, 1B, 2A and now she is in English 2B. Meanwhile she has a freind the same age who has been here in the US for 3 years and can only say about 10 phrases with little or no comprehension. So there a good programs out there in the bigger cities, also she made some more Chinese friends in her classes although most of the students are Mexican. Of course the community colleges with have esl and remedial classes depending on each persons skill. Also literature and writing depending on someones goal.

[HanLi]

My wife's English was only so - so when I met her, but she tried very hard and always wanted me to help her, which I did and do.... about 4 months ago she quit her job and started school full time to learn english, and I have seen a marked improvement. She will be well primed to take ESL in the local community college when she comes to the USA.... now if only her daughter would work as hard to learn english....

[sylinchinastill]

Jason- My husband wants to form stronger english skills as well. But there is a point where a language class won't help anymore. And I think he has passed that point. He did take an advanced discussion class that helped him with slang a lot. But he has also been taking some classes here and there that he needs to prepare for the CPA- and those classes are much better- because he hears lots of native speakers and their accents and how they phrase words. I would suggest that Jun take some english classes at a community college or college near you. Maybe that first writing course for college students or an American or British Lit course. I thinking reading a lot helps more than anything else, and hearing people speak during class will help her too. And if she enjoys writing in Chinese- then she must like to read- and if she can find that enjoyment in english she will probably improve very quickly.

 

OMG- I gave the same advice twice on the same post. I am such a jack-ass.

Edited July 23, 2005 by sylinchinastill (see edit history)

[Guest Gene]

OMG- I gave the same advice twice on the same post. I am such a jack-ass.

139649[/snapback]

Sylvia,

 

At least your consitant It has been almost a year since your original post!

[Dan R]

This is a great thread. Language is so important to being a functioning adult. Some of the "China-isms" bothered me because there is nothing cute or funny about the frustrations of not being understood when you are able to function effortlessly in another country. It is great when as couples we can see humor in it but people outside our community often use it for derision. I think we all as much as we find a mispronounciation or misusage endearing want our SOs to succeed.

 

natrigon did your SO go to Evans? I taught ESL at LACC, all four levels. There is nothing more important than helping your SO to be a functioning adult in English. Luckily because Americans hear foreign accents often and miuse the language themselves so much, there is no need to be perfect or eliminate the accent. It is only necessary to reach a point where most people you come in contact with understand.

 

I want to be able to function in China. China does not have accepted ranges of deviation like English. Much of my future plans depend on gaining enough to function in Chinese. I hope it will happen or plans must change.

 

I wonder how many of us if lost in a Chinese neighborhood, could ask directions then follow them to go back home. A very basic linguistic life skill.

I can't but I'll try. Unlike "China-isms" she may come up with that I understand, she tells me my "American-isms" are completely unintelligable. Yet they make sense to me based on the little Chinese vocabulary I have used with my American mentality. Actually because I speak Japanese I get in even more trouble. It seems when I speak or do something Chinese it is in a "Japanese style".

[The Jeff]

You must use your Chinese on a daily level...after 5 years in China i'm getting the hand of it...at the expense of my English.

 

My lady corrects my English all the time now.

[HanLi]

This is a great thread. Language is so important to being a functioning adult. Some of the "China-isms" bothered me because there is nothing cute or funny about the frustrations of not being understood when you are able to function effortlessly in another country. It is great when as couples we can see humor in it but people outside our community often use it for derision. I think we all as much as we find a mispronounciation or misusage endearing want our SOs to succeed.

 

natrigon did your SO go to Evans? I taught ESL at LACC, all four levels. There is nothing more important than helping your SO to be a functioning adult in English. Luckily because Americans hear foreign accents often and miuse the language themselves so much, there is no need to be perfect or eliminate the accent. It is only necessary to reach a point where most people you come in contact with understand.

 

I want to be able to function in China. China does not have accepted ranges of deviation like English. Much of my future plans depend on gaining enough to function in Chinese. I hope it will happen or plans must change.

 

I wonder how many of us if lost in a Chinese neighborhood, could ask directions then follow them to go back home. A very basic linguistic life skill.

I can't but I'll try. Unlike "China-isms" she may come up with that I understand, she tells me my "American-isms" are completely unintelligable. Yet they make sense to me based on the little Chinese vocabulary I have used with my American mentality. Actually because I speak Japanese I get in even more trouble. It seems when I speak or do something Chinese it is in a "Japanese style". 

139684[/snapback]

Dan,

have you checked out that Pimsluer course?