one child policy

[215dave]

Is anybody familiar with the realities of the official Chinese "one child policy" the reason I ask is that there are two kids in wifes brothers family, who have recently completed their member by member immigration to New York. How could this happen? They all lived in Taishan city, (fairly modern) and had jobs etc. An internet search basically resulted in information that if a second child is conceived, it is forcefully aborted by the govt, unless the family lives in a very rural "unmonitored" area, What gives here? I dont want to create a ruckus or hard feelings by trying to ask them. I am beginning to have suspicions that my wife may have been the birth mother of the seven year old girl. It sure would explain alot of things.

[skibum]

Dave, it does not sound like you have a great relationship with your wife. Did you ask her about the child?

As far as I know there is no written Chinese Govt policy for one child. If someone knows differently, please let me know. Dave, please post the addy of the web site you refered to.

I will copy and paste here a mail that I sent to a guy that lived in China for many years. He agreed with my assesment.

 

"My wife is Chinese. Her mother was a MD. I have spent several months in China and as I do when I travel, I try to talk to the common people.

 

I honestly do not know the point the people who bring up this topic are trying to make but I suspect that they get their information from the people who push asylum for women who claim that if they are forced to return to China, they will be forced to have an abortion.

 

This is how things really are in China where the 1.3 billion people are roughly split into 300 million in the cities and one billion in the country side. In the cities most couples are very happy with one child as they are probably living in a small apartment with one or the others parents. They also realize that it is much easier and more economical to raise just one. There is a lot of pressure from the families for the adult child to have a kid when they get married as they believe in continuing the family strain and it also proves that all is normal. Most are happy with that.

 

The countryside is a different story as the farmers still want large families and many do. After a couple has the second child they start losing benefits in their community. The kids may have less access to schooling, they will not get a rice allotment. Now, if several families in a small farm community have large families, this means a large windfall for the people in charge of the government since they get the stuff that would normally go to the families. So there is no real pressure from the local government to encourage small families. Actually the opposite is true.

 

China recently decreed that pregnant women could not have sonograms to determine the sex of the unborn. This is hoped will cut back on the number of abortions but China is a capitalist, cash society and money will buy anything. The fact that abortions are not performed in all cases is proven by the large number of girls adopted into the USA.

 

However there is one sector that is effected by the stern, central government rules and those are the young women that work in the sweatshops in places like Shenzhen. I have heard that each work unit has someone monitor the workers periods. It is interesting that these places are there because of American companies."

 

 

I will be happy to discuss farther.

[skibum]

Forgot this: America does not care how many kids a woman has in China. They just issue visas. China is always happy to get rid of people. So there is no reason for wondering how both kids got here.

[ndjarrett]

Yes one child policy. I dont think they are aborted...had not heard this. But I had heard that the parents will pay penalty to Govt for having more than one child in the city. But who knows.

[danswayne]

http://www.refugees.org/world/articles/wom...omen_rr99_8.htm

 

China's One-Child Policy

 

In 1973, after decades of encouragement to have multiple children, the Chinese government told its people that population growth was a danger and that each family should have only one child. Since then, the policy has, for the most part, been stringently enforced throughout the country. Though the policy is not itself written into Chinese law, Chinese officials have said it is mandated by laws governing other aspects of Chinese society.

 

The official sanction for violating the one-child policy is a fine. However, the People's Republic of China (PRC) government acknowledges that it cannot always control how local officials enforce the policy. Because of regional population quotas, local officials have an incentive to keep the birth rate down. Chinese women have reported being forced to abort a pregnancy or to be sterilized. Men have told of being severely beaten and having to send their wives into hiding to deliver children.

 

A Chinese national must obtain permission to be married as well as to have a child. Although the PRC government says that ethnic minorities are exempt from the one-child policy, some minorities, such as the Uighurs, allege that they have been brutally forced to comply. Some exemptions exist for men who remarry. In addition, if a first child is handicapped, it may be possible to get permission for a second child, especially if the handicapped child is a girl. In other areas, particularly the more rural regions, payment of a bribe may be sufficient to obtain permission for multiple children.

 

Without permission, a second child cannot be registered and, therefore, does not legally exist. The child cannot attend school (without payment of bribes) and later will have difficulty obtaining permission to marry, to relocate, and for other life choices requiring the government's permission.

 

In some areas, particularly cities, the one-child policy is often promoted through incentives, such as extra salary or larger houses for couples who pledge to have just one child. The government generally pays for birth control and abortions (and a woman who has an abortion receives a vacation with pay). Failure to abide by the policy may result in job loss or demotion.

 

Despite local variations on enforcement of the policy, each local jurisdiction has a family planning office responsible for its implementation. In addition, most large employers have someone on-site to oversee compliance. According to many asylum seekers, if a woman is noticeably pregnant with a second child, peers often try to dissuade her from giving birth. If such pressure does not work, these women say, family planning officials will visit her home to convince her to abort the pregnancy and, voluntarily or otherwise, will escort her to the local hospital or clinic.

 

Given the longstanding preference for boy babies in China, the one-child policy has made female infanticide common. Baby girls are also abandoned at orphanages and churches.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

September 1999

[skibum]

Dan, do you have any first hand knowledge of this? I was going by what my wife told me, what her Mom told her and the lack of real evidence of enforcement. We also talked to kids from the country with large families.

Much of what you hear comes from people who want to claim asylum in the USA.

In the USA we also need to get permission from the govt to marry. It is called a marrage licence.

[oregonknl]

Hey Dave,

 

Yeah, I know something about this --- it goes along with the adoption process..

 

There are no hard and fast rules, since it is enforced at a very local level. But:

 

The one child rule functionally applies only to the major cities... And that is where it is most strongly enforced. The second child comes at a stiff price, (garnished wages, loss of promotion, general social stigma etc. ) of course, twins, and multiple births are exempt... But Dave, it is not totally unheard of for even city people to have two children if they are professionals, and can afford it!

 

.... the one child rule was never meant to be applied severly in rural areas --- but some farm units run locally did apply harsh rules, thinking it would curry favor with the national government --- it didn't. The National government allows rural people --- based on their location (and the population of the area) generally, to have at least two children, more remote areas and all minorities are totally exmept from any restriction on the number of offspring.. I am unaware that the Uighurs have been intimidated over this issue --- that would surprise me, since the Han minority in Ningxia ( the special province for Uighurs) generally don't care that much what they do --- as long as they don't join the Taliban, or other Muslim fantical groups...

 

Even before the one child rule, there has been a centuries old cultural favoritism for boy infants, so it is true --- with ultrasound, many girl fetuses are aborted, and the horrible truth is that the historic practice of girl infantside continues in China.

 

---Kim

[danswayne]

Dan, do you have any first hand knowledge of this?  I was going by what my wife told me, what her Mom told her and the lack of real evidence of enforcement.  We also talked to kids from the country with large families.

Much of what you hear comes from people who want to claim asylum in the USA.

In the USA we also need to get permission from the govt to marry. It is called a marrage licence.

My wife and I worked with a foundation from Tennessee in Hunan province for over a year and we worked to help orphans, victims of natural disasters, and pretty much the needy of the countryside. I do not have firsthand knowledge of anyone having an abortion no, but I do have firsthand, secondhand, and thirdhand knowledge of rules and laws in China being forgotten with a well placed wad of cash or favors at the right time. We met many people in our business in Hunan and even Beijing, and learned there are many rules that are not necessarily written, but can be enforced when needed. I have done things I was not supposed to because of family friends in all levels of government over there. So yes there is a one child policy, is it enforced; yes and no, all depends on who you are and where you are.

[skibum]

You are 100% correct. But what we need to watch for are the organizations here that try to put China in a bad light using the false idea of forced abortion. There are many political axes that are being ground and I feel that if we know better, we should point out the errors.

It is simular to Falon Gong. If a FG knows it is against the law to practice the exercises in a public place, he should expect to go to jail. Just like the people here who protest the economic meetings here and in Europe. Everyone should just keep an open mind and see that there are actually not so many differences in the two countries.

 

So, 215Dave, did we answer your question?

[skibum]

And Dan, thanks for the work you did there. Wish I was younger and could do it.

[215dave]

Wow, as usual here everyone has excellent insight into the issues in China, It does seem like most of the claims of forced abortion come from religious groups in the west. So Skibum, yes my question was somewhat answered, thanks.

[warpedbored]

I am not as good as Clifford at digging out old posts from the archives but I do recall reading some pretty chilling posts about an over zealous official in Robhons wife's town. She had one child and was pregnant with his baby. As I recall she either went into hiding or was prepared to. They were leaning on her pretty heavily to get an abortion.

[Bobby]

I've spoken a few times with my wife about this (she has four sisters, and her brother-in-law has a twin brother). What she explained to me is that if a family has more than one child, the government will institute fines as well as begin to refuse to allow parents to work (first the mother, then the father, IIRC). For some reason, wages are garnished, yet none of the money taken goes to anything useful (besides some politicians pockets).

 

As far as the abortion thing.. I've heard rumblings about forced abortions, but have never seen it. My wife once said something about her mother being forced to have an abortion, but didn't really get into any details. She did tell me that its quite easy to get an abortion in China and was surprised to hear that you can't just run to the hospital here and get it done anytime for any reason.

 

As far as disinformation goes.. I live in a state where there's a lot of animosity towards the far east (China specifically). Textiles were very big here. One day while she was trying on clothes, another husband (who was also waiting) told me he hates China for taking away his job. I explained that I'm in the IT field, and although I don't feel any animosity towards India, I do understand why he's angry. I tried to follow-up with asking him if he'd considered other careers or at least a different "angle" on his current career, but he didn't really have anything further to discuss with me (maybe after seeing me hug my wife when she came out of the changing area )..