Testing the Limits of Humanity

[knloregon]

"He is only screaming for God and Christ now like atheists and agnostics do when the chips have fallen against them."

 

Don't quite agree with this Tony, he's not using Christ to get out of his plight... yes, I also have seen the guilty of great crimes invoke Christ---but to win sympathy...

 

He's saying: I'm totally guilty... Give me the worst, not the best---show no mercy on me, I don't deserve it.

[Smitty]

I don't think that you have to go to southeast Asia to ask this question. All you have to look at is "Tookie" Williams.

[weiaijiayou]

"He is only screaming for God and Christ now like atheists and agnostics do when the chips have fallen against them."

 

Don't quite agree with this Tony, he's not using Christ to get out of his plight... yes, I also have seen the guilty of great crimes invoke Christ---but to win sympathy...

 

He's saying: I'm totally guilty... Give me the worst, not the best---show no mercy on me, I don't deserve it.

 

there does seem to be something about christianity that brings some people to make surprising turn-arounds, often at inopportune times. a few weeks ago i read a book about the international war crimes tribunal being held in the hague for war criminals from what used to be yugoslavia. one of the stories that really stuck with me was about a female serbian biologist who got into politics during the civil war and became a radical advocate of getting rid of croats and muslims. when it came time for her trial, she became the first ¨C and, who knows, maybe even the only ¨C defendant to admit that she was aware of mass killings under her command and that her participation in these was wrong. everyone else, serbs and croats, from the town drunks accused of rapes and kidnappings on up to slobodan Milosevic, either denied their involvement or claimed that anything they did amongst this chaos was a necessary part of defending their state and their ethnic group. this woman, on the other hand, was labeled a traitor and earned the wrath of the serbian people, who believed that serbians could not have committed war crimes because they were the good guys. slavenka drakulic, the croatian lady who wrote this book, couldn¡¯t seem to come up with any reason for the ¡°metamorphosis¡± of this woman, finally letting her speculation come to rest by noting the large cross dangling from the woman¡¯s neck and her personal reference to how she betrayed the legacy of serbia¡¯s saints by what she did to the croats, muslims and albanians¡­

 

in addition to asking what will happen to these repentant murderers in the afterlife, one might also wonder about all of these people walking around who apparently have the capacity to commit these types of acts, should the proper circumstances arise, but who never get the ¡°chance.¡± it seems pretty clear from episodes like the killing fields and nazi germany that a lot of seemingly good people would commit or allow the murders of a lot of people should they encounter the right mix of propaganda, authority, and historical circumstance. so do these people escape eternal punishment if the thrust toward evil never presents itself and they never express their evil potential? if so, doesn¡¯t there seem to be a large element of luck since some have their will tested while, for others, norms and social pressures during their lives are in line with what is morally right?

[Dan R]

Developing a conscience is not an excuse for commiting atrocity. Society depends on the rule of law being followed.

[tsap seui]

Just turn him loose already. Enough pondefecating about it.

 

Douche danced, now he gets to pay the band.

 

tsap seui

[knloregon]

there does seem to be something about christianity that brings some people to make surprising turn-arounds, often at inopportune times. a few weeks ago i read a book about the international war crimes tribunal being held in the hague for war criminals from what used to be yugoslavia. one of the stories that really stuck with me was about a female serbian biologist who got into politics during the civil war and became a radical advocate of getting rid of croats and muslims. when it came time for her trial, she became the first ¨C and, who knows, maybe even the only ¨C defendant to admit that she was aware of mass killings under her command and that her participation in these was wrong. everyone else, serbs and croats, from the town drunks accused of rapes and kidnappings on up to slobodan Milosevic, either denied their involvement or claimed that anything they did amongst this chaos was a necessary part of defending their state and their ethnic group. this woman, on the other hand, was labeled a traitor and earned the wrath of the serbian people, who believed that serbians could not have committed war crimes because they were the good guys. slavenka drakulic, the croatian lady who wrote this book, couldn¡¯t seem to come up with any reason for the ¡°metamorphosis¡± of this woman, finally letting her speculation come to rest by noting the large cross dangling from the woman¡¯s neck and her personal reference to how she betrayed the legacy of serbia¡¯s saints by what she did to the croats, muslims and albanians¡­

 

in addition to asking what will happen to these repentant murderers in the afterlife, one might also wonder about all of these people walking around who apparently have the capacity to commit these types of acts, should the proper circumstances arise, but who never get the ¡°chance.¡± it seems pretty clear from episodes like the killing fields and nazi germany that a lot of seemingly good people would commit or allow the murders of a lot of people should they encounter the right mix of propaganda, authority, and historical circumstance. so do these people escape eternal punishment if the thrust toward evil never presents itself and they never express their evil potential? if so, doesn¡¯t there seem to be a large element of luck since some have their will tested while, for others, norms and social pressures during their lives are in line with what is morally right?

 

 

 

YES ~! Perfectly stated---sure, its about faith, but its also about morality, if the two can be seperated: This is the bigger question, and the one which goes to the core of the post: 'testing the limits of humanity'..

 

Most of its here> The female Serbian biologist failed her faith---and herself---under the crushing social pressure, emotions and passions of war. She accepted a position of leadership and responsibly among her tribe---the Serbs. At ethnic and religious war with the Croats.

 

For the reason Weiaijiayou stated. but once pulled into it, could she resist what she know was morally wrong conduct? ---horribly wrong---the killing of civilians.. Her limits were tested----and she failed.

 

So she dug herself into this huge spiritual hole---all the way to hell on earth. Weiaijiayou: " this woman, on the other hand, was labeled a traitor and earned the wrath of the serbian people, who believed that serbians could not have committed war crimes because they were the good..." so for her to regain her faith, she was subjected to the wrath of her own tribe, and now reviled. Forced to turn on the very ones who placed her to a leadership position---and into the role of murderer. So different from Duch?

 

And again, this is a question of two parts---of course both Duch and this woman face earthly punishment---thats a given. But what about their soul----and ours?

 

 

YES ~! Perfectly stated---sure, its about faith, but its also about morality, if the two can be seperated: This is the bigger question, and the one which goes to the core of the post: 'testing the limits of humanity'..

 

Most of its here> The female Serbian biologist failed her faith---and herself---under the crushing social pressure, emotions and passions of war. She accepted a position of leadership and responsibly among her tribe---the Serbs. At ethnic and religious war with the Croats.

 

For the reason Weiaijiayou stated. but once pulled into it, could she resist what she know was morally wrong conduct? ---horribly wrong---the killing of civilians.. Her limits were tested----and she failed.

 

So she dug herself into this huge spiritual hole---all the way to hell on earth. Weiaijiayou: " this woman, on the other hand, was labeled a traitor and earned the wrath of the serbian people, who believed that serbians could not have committed war crimes because they were the good..." so for her to regain her faith, she was subjected to the wrath of her own tribe, and now reviled. Forced to turn on the very ones who placed her to a leadership position---and into the role of murderer. So different from Duch?

 

And again, this is a question of two parts---of course both Duch and this woman face earthly punishment---thats a given. But what about their soul----and ours?

 

Weiaijiayou: in addition to asking what will happen to these repentant murderers in the afterlife, one might also wonder about all of these people walking around who apparently have the capacity to commit these types of acts, should the proper circumstances arise, but who never get the ¡°chance.¡± it seems pretty clear from episodes like the killing fields and nazi germany that a lot of seemingly good people would commit or allow the murders of a lot of people should they encounter the right mix of propaganda, authority, and historical circumstance. so do these people escape eternal punishment if the thrust toward evil never presents itself and they never express their evil potential? if so, doesn¡¯t there seem to be a large element of luck since some have their will tested while, for others, norms and social pressures during their lives are in line with what is morally right?

 

So if we are tested....how will we do? Can we say with certainty that we won't fail humanity in a time of great struggle?

[Appaullo]

This will be up to Jesus Chrirst decide. Not Mortal Man.

 

 

Sometimes ... you know, if Jesus is busy ... mortal man should feel free to lend a helping hand .... just to keep things on an even keel.

 

{edit} Fixed broken quote tags

Edited August 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[Guest Tony n Terrific]

This will be up to Jesus Chrirst decide. Not Mortal Man.

 

 

Sometimes ... you know, if Jesus is busy ... mortal man should feel free to lend a helping hand .... just to keep things on an even keel.

God and the Son Christ are omnipresent. They are never busy for men and woman. I know this because from some strange reason they have looked over me in all my folleys that I have participated in during my lifetime.

 

{edit} Fixed broken quote tags.

Edited August 24, 2009 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[chengdu4me]

Ther short answer....in the Bible, it states that Jesus said; obey your masters and follow the laws of Ceasar. He also said that all that ask forgiveness of my Father for their sins will be forgiven.

 

So, first part...obey and accept the laws and punishments of the earthly laws and courts

 

Second part, whatever your crime, whatever your earthly punishment, forgiveness in the after life can be yours if you are repentent.

 

Having not been there yet, I would only suspect that Heaven is full of murderers, child molesters, rapist, thieves, and other earthly scum. It would be my thought that those that have knowingly led a life of crime and hatred are more aware of this and more repentent than many who "think" they have led a good life and saw no reason to ask forgiveness...and then found out a little too late that they didn't...

[NewDay2006]

Ther short answer....in the Bible, it states that Jesus said; obey your masters and follow the laws of Ceasar. He also said that all that ask forgiveness of my Father for their sins will be forgiven.

 

So, first part...obey and accept the laws and punishments of the earthly laws and courts

 

Second part, whatever your crime, whatever your earthly punishment, forgiveness in the after life can be yours if you are repentent.

 

Having not been there yet, I would only suspect that Heaven is full of murderers, child molesters, rapist, thieves, and other earthly scum. It would be my thought that those that have knowingly led a life of crime and hatred are more aware of this and more repentent than many who "think" they have led a good life and saw no reason to ask forgiveness...and then found out a little too late that they didn't...

Good response. I was going to say this, but you beat me to it.

 

I beleive he should be punished by the laws of man. We are not Jesus Christ. He is forgiven, still he should meet his maker.

[chilton747]

Ther short answer....in the Bible, it states that Jesus said; obey your masters and follow the laws of Ceasar. He also said that all that ask forgiveness of my Father for their sins will be forgiven.

 

So, first part...obey and accept the laws and punishments of the earthly laws and courts

 

Second part, whatever your crime, whatever your earthly punishment, forgiveness in the after life can be yours if you are repentent.

 

Having not been there yet, I would only suspect that Heaven is full of murderers, child molesters, rapist, thieves, and other earthly scum. It would be my thought that those that have knowingly led a life of crime and hatred are more aware of this and more repentent than many who "think" they have led a good life and saw no reason to ask forgiveness...and then found out a little too late that they didn't...

 

One only needs to remember Saul who later changed his name to Paul. He was a murderer that was certainly forgiven by God.

[griz326]

By Christian doctrine he is forgiven.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately because of some local "good Christian" scum.

 

...many, many Christians do not understand the doctrine you cite so they feel comfortable lying, cheating, stealing and doing all sorts of heinous deeds "knowing that they will be forgiven." What they don't understand is that if they commit evil acts "knowing (and expecting) that they will be forgiven" they are going to be SOL.

 

This guy is a stone killer. He is only screaming for God and Christ now like atheists and agnostics do when the chips have fallen against them.

There's no doubt the man is evil and murderous; just like an alcoholic, he will be until the day he dies. Whether or not his conversion to good deeds is genuine cannot be judged because we are incapable of seeing into his soul.

 

Having not been there yet, I would only suspect that Heaven is full of murderers, child molesters, rapist, thieves, and other earthly scum. It would be my thought that those that have knowingly led a life of crime and hatred are more aware of this and more repentent than many who "think" they have led a good life and saw no reason to ask forgiveness...and then found out a little too late that they didn't...

I'd be inclined to say heaven is full of genuinely good and/or sincerely repentant souls. More than once I've genuinely wanted to eviscerate specific evil doers; each time I decided against it even though the world would have been improved by such a deed. I often soulfully wonder if I will be judge harshly for not answering the call and taking care of business.

 

As for this guy, take care of business and let God sort it out.

[Yuanyang]

He is forgiven of his sins by God; not the state. But (according to the my Bible schooling) His forgiveness requires accepting the justice by society. Thus Society is entitled to extract that Justice.

[chengdu4me]

I am reminded of a story told to me by a pastor at our church many years ago. Mans laws and system of justice is based on what the eye sees. The eye can be fooled. Gods laws are based on the contents of your soul. God cannot be fooled. Man will be judged by man according to his actions. God wil judge man according to his intentions. According to the law of man, a person can be a murderer. This same man according to God could be a savior...what was in his soul at the time is the difference...unfortunately, man judges by what we know..and we never know all...

[knloregon]

"Officer in My Lai killings apologizes." (wire reports)

 

William Calley: "There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened.... (not what I did)....that day in My Lai"

 

"I feel remorse fo the Vietnamese who wee killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry."

 

"In March 1968, U.S. soldiers killed 500 men, women and children in the hamlet of My Lai. The Army at first denied, then down-played the event.... "

 

"Though sentenced to life in prison, Calley ended up serving three years under house arrest after President Richard Nixon later reduced his sentence.."

 

Question for all who want to string up Duch ---- Calley is, and has been for nearly 35 years, a free man.... As a convicted mass-murderer of 500 innocents........ right or wrong?