Jeikun Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Cerebus, I don't see it as a "slippery slope", fact is mass censorship and suppression of free speech and expression on the web and elsewhere in China happens on a daily basis. Are porno sites getting blocked any skin off of my butt? nope. I only see it as an example of the larger problem. It's not called the great firewall of China for nothing! It is the overall mentality of the Chinese government that we can and will tell you what websites are safe/clean/acceptable that bothers me, regardless of subject matter. I can see the flip side, in that in China pornography is illegal... just as here say child porn or a how-to on building a nuclear bomb is, and our government would strip those sites down as well - so I suppose you could say the internet censorship is just a visable symptom of a larger problem... but we all knew that anyway. China might be open but it isn't "free" as we would define it, except in the sence that you are "free to mind your own damn business". At least it isn;t bad as North Korea where getting web access, or having a TV/Radio that picks up non North Korean broadcasts is a capital offense Jason, I fully agree with you in some aspects. When I referred to the slippery slope of pornography, this argument is IMHO a lot of unadulterated crap! Try this argument past your wife and see exactly HOW far you get! As to censorship of other places, I fully agree with you. They shouldn't be restricted. However, China's prosperity, in he future will change this gradually. Remember societal changes are gradual! Not Immediate. To do it another way will cause a disaster for all. China is becoming a major player on the world. The world, its people and prosperity will change. However, it will take time! Remember Korea from 1976 until approx 1981? It was considered backwards and did almost the same type of censorship in a democratic society as China does in a Communist environment! Look at S. Korea today! Censorship; some, but on the whole, very little compared to 1981. China needs to have time to make this same evolutionary change. Compare the China of Mao to Hu today. It is a gradual process that is occurring today and will continue into the future. You can't wave a "magic stick" and they are transformed overnight! Would be nice. However, it doesn't happen in the real world. However, to pornography; care to take my wager and try this line of argument past your wife? NOT a chance! You are level headed! Remember my new game of "husband-tossing!"" LOL! I will wait for even one persons response to this particular dare! I want to see what Joanne or SmilingAsias response is to this thread! I Know! I Know! They will be extremely sympathetic to the cause of pornography! Same as my wife was! LOL lol asking wouldn't get me "tossed", but posting her response would. Link to comment
Cerberus Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Cerebus, I don't see it as a "slippery slope", fact is mass censorship and suppression of free speech and expression on the web and elsewhere in China happens on a daily basis. Are porno sites getting blocked any skin off of my butt? nope. I only see it as an example of the larger problem. It's not called the great firewall of China for nothing! It is the overall mentality of the Chinese government that we can and will tell you what websites are safe/clean/acceptable that bothers me, regardless of subject matter. I can see the flip side, in that in China pornography is illegal... just as here say child porn or a how-to on building a nuclear bomb is, and our government would strip those sites down as well - so I suppose you could say the internet censorship is just a visable symptom of a larger problem... but we all knew that anyway. China might be open but it isn't "free" as we would define it, except in the sence that you are "free to mind your own damn business". At least it isn;t bad as North Korea where getting web access, or having a TV/Radio that picks up non North Korean broadcasts is a capital offense Jason, I fully agree with you in some aspects. When I referred to the slippery slope of pornography, this argument is IMHO a lot of unadulterated crap! Try this argument past your wife and see exactly HOW far you get! As to censorship of other places, I fully agree with you. They shouldn't be restricted. However, China's prosperity, in he future will change this gradually. Remember societal changes are gradual! Not Immediate. To do it another way will cause a disaster for all. China is becoming a major player on the world. The world, its people and prosperity will change. However, it will take time! Remember Korea from 1976 until approx 1981? It was considered backwards and did almost the same type of censorship in a democratic society as China does in a Communist environment! Look at S. Korea today! Censorship; some, but on the whole, very little compared to 1981. China needs to have time to make this same evolutionary change. Compare the China of Mao to Hu today. It is a gradual process that is occurring today and will continue into the future. You can't wave a "magic stick" and they are transformed overnight! Would be nice. However, it doesn't happen in the real world. However, to pornography; care to take my wager and try this line of argument past your wife? NOT a chance! You are level headed! Remember my new game of "husband-tossing!"" LOL! I will wait for even one persons response to this particular dare! I want to see what Joanne or SmilingAsias response is to this thread! I Know! I Know! They will be extremely sympathetic to the cause of pornography! Same as my wife was! LOL lol asking wouldn't get me "tossed", but posting her response would. Nice come back. Good to have company with me the wuss! I wonder how many will come after us, or are they simply cockroaches hiding in the walls! You know.....Their liberal, uncensored wife turn the lights on them and their pornography/Freedom of Speech arguments and they go scuttling! ROFLMAO! BTW Mark, you were wrong! A 44 caliber with 6 rounds loaded! Link to comment
izus Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) ok...turn all the porn sites back on.....the connection to your american email should be better then. Edited January 24, 2008 by izus (see edit history) Link to comment
Shenzhen K-1 Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Cerebus, I don't see it as a "slippery slope", fact is mass censorship and suppression of free speech and expression on the web and elsewhere in China happens on a daily basis. Are porno sites getting blocked any skin off of my butt? nope. I only see it as an example of the larger problem. It's not called the great firewall of China for nothing! It is the overall mentality of the Chinese government that we can and will tell you what websites are safe/clean/acceptable that bothers me, regardless of subject matter. I can see the flip side, in that in China pornography is illegal... just as here say child porn or a how-to on building a nuclear bomb is, and our government would strip those sites down as well - so I suppose you could say the internet censorship is just a visable symptom of a larger problem... but we all knew that anyway. China might be open but it isn't "free" as we would define it, except in the sence that you are "free to mind your own damn business". At least it isn;t bad as North Korea where getting web access, or having a TV/Radio that picks up non North Korean broadcasts is a capital offense Jason, I fully agree with you in some aspects. When I referred to the slippery slope of pornography, this argument is IMHO a lot of unadulterated crap! Try this argument past your wife and see exactly HOW far you get! As to censorship of other places, I fully agree with you. They shouldn't be restricted. However, China's prosperity, in he future will change this gradually. Remember societal changes are gradual! Not Immediate. To do it another way will cause a disaster for all. China is becoming a major player on the world. The world, its people and prosperity will change. However, it will take time! Remember Korea from 1976 until approx 1981? It was considered backwards and did almost the same type of censorship in a democratic society as China does in a Communist environment! Look at S. Korea today! Censorship; some, but on the whole, very little compared to 1981. China needs to have time to make this same evolutionary change. Compare the China of Mao to Hu today. It is a gradual process that is occurring today and will continue into the future. You can't wave a "magic stick" and they are transformed overnight! Would be nice. However, it doesn't happen in the real world. However, to pornography; care to take my wager and try this line of argument past your wife? NOT a chance! You are level headed! Remember my new game of "husband-tossing!"" LOL! I will wait for even one persons response to this particular dare! I want to see what Joanne or SmilingAsias response is to this thread! I Know! I Know! They will be extremely sympathetic to the cause of pornography! Same as my wife was! LOL lol asking wouldn't get me "tossed", but posting her response would. Nice come back. Good to have company with me the wuss! I wonder how many will come after us, or are they simply cockroaches hiding in the walls! You know.....Their liberal, uncensored wife turn the lights on them and their pornography/Freedom of Speech arguments and they go scuttling! ROFLMAO! BTW Mark, you were wrong! A 44 caliber with 6 rounds loaded! Link to comment
pkfops Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Gosh, it's awfully big of you guys to happily toss away another of the average Chinese citizen's rights like that. I'm sure they appreciate it. I don't care to look at porn when I'm in China and while it may be no skin off your nose that you can't see it either, I'm sure at least some of the 1.3 billion citizens there may prefer to maintain that right. What other kinds of things that YOU don't care for would you like to see the Chinese gov't take away?Yes we should promote this type of behavior. Why don't we let our children subscribe to Hustler or some cable TV sex channel that shows beastiality? Let us show our future that the unglorius Sodomites are wonderful people and same sex marriage is a blessing. That would be Jolly good fun wouldn't? Pornography is for the social malcontented introverts that love to promote their thumb and 4 fingers and beleive in fantasy lovers. You say you do not watch Porn in China? What do you do you wait until you get home and watch it so your forearms look like Popeye's? Sounds like you are in favor of blocking those religious sites. Link to comment
jemmyell Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Gosh, it's awfully big of you guys to happily toss away another of the average Chinese citizen's rights like that. I'm sure they appreciate it. I don't care to look at porn when I'm in China and while it may be no skin off your nose that you can't see it either, I'm sure at least some of the 1.3 billion citizens there may prefer to maintain that right. What other kinds of things that YOU don't care for would you like to see the Chinese gov't take away? True Dave, very true................. I looked at it from the selfish aspect not the civil rights side of my brain!! I had quite the time in Beijing just getting my e-mail!! I find it difficult to comprehend that shutting down all porn sites within China (or anywhere) is possible. It reminds me of the dike and the Little Dutch Boy. And, I suppose, that it is more publicity than it is reality. If a person really needs it, I am sure they will find it. I'm reminded of the Dilbert strip where he announces that he has devised the perfect porn filter for parental controls. Wally commented: "So, you are betting your technical skills against the collective sex drive of 7.5 million teenagers?" -James Link to comment
Rakkasan Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Gosh, it's awfully big of you guys to happily toss away another of the average Chinese citizen's rights like that. I'm sure they appreciate it. I don't care to look at porn when I'm in China and while it may be no skin off your nose that you can't see it either, I'm sure at least some of the 1.3 billion citizens there may prefer to maintain that right. What other kinds of things that YOU don't care for would you like to see the Chinese gov't take away?I have no problem eliminating porn since it does nothing for me anyway. I have a beautiful wife, good job and a nice home, I don't need porn to get me through the day. I wasn't aware that looking at porn was a "right" under Chinese rule. In the U.S. being able to watch porn is protected as a right under our Constitution, China is not required to abide by our constitution when setting policy for their country or people. One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. I think Americans tend to travel to other countries and expect everything to be just like it is back home, wanting to impose our ideals and values, instead of accepting that other countries have their own ideas about what is acceptable and best for their people and what is not. When you get back home you can look at all the porn you want if that's what makes you happy, but when in China accept that they are doing what they think is best for their people (right or wrong). Link to comment
Jeikun Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Link to comment
pkfops Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 (edited) One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Here's an interesting find:http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/ancientchina.html Edited January 25, 2008 by pkfops (see edit history) Link to comment
DMikeS4321 Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Censoring porn, here or in China, is not just stupid...but it accomplishes nothing constructive. If it keeps a few 10 year olds from seeing something they shouldn't, it can be worthwhile, but I think controlling porn on the internet is a lost cause. Link to comment
DMikeS4321 Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Hookers and kept women are not the same as unfettered access to hard core porn over the internet. We (in the U.S.) used to have an outward innocence as well, but now we see a general coarsening of our culture and values. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, but the garbage available on the internet doesn't help. P.S. I don't think porn is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they were talking about 'freedom of expression'. Link to comment
Guest Tony n Terrific Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Hookers and kept women are not the same as unfettered access to hard core porn over the internet. We (in the U.S.) used to have an outward innocence as well, but now we see a general coarsening of our culture and values. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, but the garbage available on the internet doesn't help. P.S. I don't think porn is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they were talking about 'freedom of expression'.Yes. Ask directions to Sodom and Gomorrah if you can not find it on a map. Link to comment
Dennis143 Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 P.S. I don't think porn is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they were talking about 'freedom of expression'.Maybe not, yet it still is according to our law makers. Yes, China IS certainly more naive and innocent than we are, as a nation. Seems only natural, being their country has only recently been 'opened' to western or outside influences. I believe that all of us are in a unique position in that, in relative time speaking, we are at the forefront of being exposed to both Chinese innocence and excesses. Not to mention that many of us now live with someone who is a product of it. Times will change. The Chinese government will try to curtain exposure. But, does anyone here truly believe that it is a venture that will reap long-term success? Does anyone here truly believe that the future of China doesn't somewhat resemble us? Personally, I view the Olympics and the influx of westerners and all the tipping and inflated/gouged pricing will also have a lasting affect unlike anything China and Chinese business men knew before. Yes, I truly believe those 'good ole day' that most of us who were fortunate to have experienced are soon to be a thing of the past... Time will tell. Link to comment
Shenzhen K-1 Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Hookers and kept women are not the same as unfettered access to hard core porn over the internet. We (in the U.S.) used to have an outward innocence as well, but now we see a general coarsening of our culture and values. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, but the garbage available on the internet doesn't help. P.S. I don't think porn is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they were talking about 'freedom of expression'.Yes. Ask directions to Sodom and Gomorrah if you can not find it on a map. WOW, sensitive newby............... Remember this is a blog for CFL memebrs to get over the long wait and to get some help, in more ways then one!! You will get strong and soft opionons from many people here that have been to China more then once including myself, (3 last year)!! So take it a little easy, have fun, and enjoy the long ride!! Link to comment
Jeikun Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 (edited) One of the things I like about China is the innocence I see when there. This innocence is the result of China prohibiting access to things like porn. Innosence? I am willing to wager that China has easily 20-30 times the number of hookers and kept women as the US. I think China is a fine place, but let's not weld those rose colored glasses on so tightly they blind us completely. Hookers and kept women are not the same as unfettered access to hard core porn over the internet. We (in the U.S.) used to have an outward innocence as well, but now we see a general coarsening of our culture and values. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" question, but the garbage available on the internet doesn't help. P.S. I don't think porn is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they were talking about 'freedom of expression'.Yes. Ask directions to Sodom and Gomorrah if you can not find it on a map. oh, okay... gur-hyuck! I'll ask for directions to the ark of the covenant and Eden while I'm at it too. DMike... I didn't mean to equate porn to prostitution. I meant to contrast rampant prostitution and marital infidelity (since it's in the spirit of the example, but lord knows I could find plenty of non-sex related ones) to the concept of "innocent Chinese". I think veiwing China and Chinese people as innocent and naieve is itself naieve. As for the censorship of porn, I agree it's a poor example (but it's the one the OP brought to the front) of what I am trying to express here as pornography can be something ugly and scummy that we shed no tears for. My point is it's just one example of many of how the Chinese government has taken it upon themselves to be the "Net-Nanny" of the internet removing not only pornography, but also other things such as educated discussion of human right's issues, history they want to make disappear, etc which they believe it is in people's (or is it the government's?) best interest not to read or talk about. And I don't have to be judging China in terms of our laws or a western mindset etc etc bla bla bla to say that. It's a simple litmus test really... when a government has reason to fear their own people reading something or discussing something... than that government is not working in it's citizen's best interests but rather their own. China is not NEARLY as bad about it as many countries, and as someone else said it will change gradually because their prosperity exposure to the world at large will bring about a slow evolution. Slow and steady and enduring is China's style, after all. But I do feel it's my right as a concerned party at least to voice my opinion in a forum founded for opinion sharing Edited January 25, 2008 by Jeikun (see edit history) Link to comment
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