Racism

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

There is a stigma in the US that runs deep. It's real, and denying it won't make it go away. There are some that simply feel that having a relationship, or even socializing outside your race or religion is a serious violation of some unwritten moral code. Seems that many American women, if not most; believe that American men who choose to marry or have a relationship with an Asian woman do so because they have failed with stronger-willed American women. I've had female friends that absolutely believe this, to the point that a discussion with them would be nearly pointless and likely generate a good deal of hostility.

[NewDay2006]

Unless you fear for your life at the time, you need to confront the racism at the moment it happens to let the people know where you stand.

I must say I disagree. I spent the first part of my life responding as such, sometimes with a good whack.

 

But ignorance is not something you change with a comment or a confrontation or worse . You might tell the person they are out of place, but distance is what is needed. Unless they offend my wife in person, but even then I beleive I would walk away,... at least I hope I would.

Edited October 2, 2007 by NewDay2006 (see edit history)

[DMikeS4321]

A couple years ago I sent an e-mail Christmas card from China to all my friends and relatives. It was a picture of Lao Po and Er Mei in Santa hats sitting on the couch in our apartment with me sitting in the middle, arms around both girls. The text was simply "Merry Christmas from China".

 

People were generally quite complementary of the card except for one of my slightly distant relatives who was not aware of my relationship with Lao Po. He wrote back a chatty note where he "complemented" me by asking where I had found such good looking (several terms for ladies of questionable morals).

 

He is, in fact, married to a woman that comes from another country.

 

I simply wrote back to him and identified the two ladies as my intended bride and step-daughter to be. We never referred to the incident again and he and his wife are very friendly to the girls and have invited us to come stay with them sometime for a short vacation (they live quite a distance from us).

 

People exhibit prejudice without thinking. I'm sure he didn't "mean anything" and thought he was just joking.

 

In most cases I think it is better to avoid any confrontation and, most importantly, leave an escape route for the offender.

 

We should also bear in mind that prejudice is rampant in China (my opinion). Our loved ones probably have prejudices related to skin tones, city/area of residence, etc, etc. and we should reinforce that we think it inappropriate to express such prejudice in public.

 

Jim,

 

I always walk away with something positive from many of your thoughtful posts !!

 

Me too. In fact, I deleted a previously posted reply that suggested a response that would have been inappropriate!

 

Best Regards

[Minister]

The only thing laughable about racism is that our open and multi-cultural society is still capable of producing racist thoughts. I have heard a lot of this type of thing too (Mostly jackassy questions about "Is everything on an Asian girl slanted? Har har har" ). But, to be honest, that kind of thing doesn't bother me very much.

 

What bothers me is the stigma of foreign marriage. The whole "mail order bride" thing that follows the whole process around really gets my goat. Ok, maybe it is true that some people somewhere married their American husband for the visa. We've all heard the "friend-of-a-friend" stories about the Russian wife who disappeared on the honeymoon. Or the Mexican wife who had a boyfriend in the same city as her fiance. Those stories are as common as any other urban legend, I suppose. But that kind of thing actually happening is very very rare, I think. The process and the people who oversee the process are very thorough and it just isn't possible for that kind of thing to happen.

 

Now, I travel a lot for work. And I have been pursued by women looking for an American. Those girls had an agenda (sometimes an agenda that they have stated very clearly). But, that agenda is very easy to see through. Honestly. I don't think that those kinds of girls are "fooling" anyone. You see what it is and you pass it by.

 

But, since the reinstatement of my single status three years ago, I dated quite a few local girls too. Most of them had an agenda. Sometimes it was more clearly stated. Sometimes it was hidden. Sometimes THEY didn't even know they had it. But they had it. Their agenda wasn't "I want to go to America". Their agenda was "I want to go back to school" or "I want to have a baby" or "I want to live with someone and get rid of my debt" or "I want to quit working" or "I want to get married like all of my friends did". To these girls, I wasn't "love", I was a means to an end.

 

And that's why I chose my sweetheart. Of all the girls I met, foreign and domestic, she was the only one WITHOUT an agenda. Of course, she has dreams and goals in life (we all do. I do too). But her goal for being with me is to be with me. That's it. Hell, do you think her first question was about America? For the first few months that I knew her, she was asking about ways that I could go to her! But I don't care where my Angel comes from, what I care about is the quality of our relationship. If the right girl for me was next door or in Timbuktu, I wouldn't care. It just so happens that she happens to be from China.

 

So when I hear these things about "slant-eyed Mexicans" and girls who "don't care so much about their boyfriend's blue eyes as they do his green card", it makes me a little angry. Because the people of the world are all the same. Some girls (ANY girls) have an agenda, some don't. And to assume something about a relationship based on the geographical location of one of the members, shows a poor understanding, not just of foreign people, but of people in general.

 

And that complete lack of understanding, in my opinion, is what should be laughed at.

[Jeikun]

The only thing laughable about racism is that our open and multi-cultural society is still capable of producing racist thoughts. I have heard a lot of this type of thing too (Mostly jackassy questions about "Is everything on an Asian girl slanted? Har har har" ). But, to be honest, that kind of thing doesn't bother me very much.

 

What bothers me is the stigma of foreign marriage. The whole "mail order bride" thing that follows the whole process around really gets my goat. Ok, maybe it is true that some people somewhere married their American husband for the visa. We've all heard the "friend-of-a-friend" stories about the Russian wife who disappeared on the honeymoon. Or the Mexican wife who had a boyfriend in the same city as her fiance. Those stories are as common as any other urban legend, I suppose. But that kind of thing actually happening is very very rare, I think. The process and the people who oversee the process are very thorough and it just isn't possible for that kind of thing to happen.

 

Now, I travel a lot for work. And I have been pursued by women looking for an American. Those girls had an agenda (sometimes an agenda that they have stated very clearly). But, that agenda is very easy to see through. Honestly. I don't think that those kinds of girls are "fooling" anyone. You see what it is and you pass it by.

 

But, since the reinstatement of my single status three years ago, I dated quite a few local girls too. Most of them had an agenda. Sometimes it was more clearly stated. Sometimes it was hidden. Sometimes THEY didn't even know they had it. But they had it. Their agenda wasn't "I want to go to America". Their agenda was "I want to go back to school" or "I want to have a baby" or "I want to live with someone and get rid of my debt" or "I want to quit working" or "I want to get married like all of my friends did". To these girls, I wasn't "love", I was a means to an end.

 

And that's why I chose my sweetheart. Of all the girls I met, foreign and domestic, she was the only one WITHOUT an agenda. Of course, she has dreams and goals in life (we all do. I do too). But her goal for being with me is to be with me. That's it. Hell, do you think her first question was about America? For the first few months that I knew her, she was asking about ways that I could go to her! But I don't care where my Angel comes from, what I care about is the quality of our relationship. If the right girl for me was next door or in Timbuktu, I wouldn't care. It just so happens that she happens to be from China.

 

So when I hear these things about "slant-eyed Mexicans" and girls who "don't care so much about their boyfriend's blue eyes as they do his green card", it makes me a little angry. Because the people of the world are all the same. Some girls (ANY girls) have an agenda, some don't. And to assume something about a relationship based on the geographical location of one of the members, shows a poor understanding, not just of foreign people, but of people in general.

 

And that complete lack of understanding, in my opinion, is what should be laughed at.

 

I like you, you sound like me 3 years ago.

 

I dare say, though, that the majority of stereotypes stem from some tidbit of truth. Now this thread was originally about racism.. which is deplorable. But sadly some of the "mail order bride" stereotypes are far from urban legend.

 

I think most of them originated back in the days prior to the internet when someone would go to a marriage broker or actually order a catalog in the mail (with bios and addresses)... those were much more open to scamming and fraud. They also tended to attract more desperate people on both ends... hence the numerous negative stereotypes that endure to this day.

 

In the modern age with PCs and sites like Match, eharmony, yahoo personals, etc... the idea of finding a mate using the computer has caught on with a much larger audience, and by extension so has finding an international mate by the same medium. This makes a lot of the old stereotypes undeserved and outdated... BUT there are still orginizations and people out there who will take advantage of you.

 

Another danger is in thinking, just because we are taught to believe that "stereotypes are wrong" - that there re no differences between Chinese and American people. My wife and I both believed this, and as a result we ignored or largley laughed at posts by people like David. Trust me... there ARE things you need to both understand about each other's cultures, upbringing, deep-set morals and prejudices. Since we both refused to admit this... we really allowed many things to come between us, and went from the extreme of "there are no differences" to the extreme of "the differences are insurmountable".

 

I'm not saying that you are personally approaching it that way, it's just that I caught a tiny whiff of it in your post, so I thought I would give my veiw as someone who was burned badly by thinking he could intellectualize and empathize away the truly vast differences in western and eastern thought. I'd hate to see that get someone else.

[warpedbored]

I refuse to suffer racists. I grew up in redneck Idaho where the N word is a common house hold term. That is part of the reason I don't live there anymore. When I told my friends there that I was marrying a woman from China all but one of them were supportive. The one ex-friend commented on me getting a slope mail order bride. I haven't talked to him since. I don't need or want friends like that. I believe that letting racist comments slide only help such attitudes fester. At the very least if you say something they will think about it even if it doesn't change anything.

[sweattrl1]

racism can come in many forms , and can be created by many factors ,

in this tread i have read everyones opions and one stand out , you can not use racism in any form to argue the point, everyone should remember , our goverment programed the american people in there way of thinking many , many years ago, read your history, in the sixties , Americans had dislike for Russia , and china , so you married a chinese woman,so did I just another chapter in our life, what anyone thinks , the hell with them, why argue or worry about it ,be happy and keep on keeping on, (racism) if anyone can change it , GOOD LUCK, I don't think so

[david_dawei]

some people say what they do because they [think they] are your friend.. they thought they could openly say what they wanted.. isn't that just a form of 'free speech' from which we wish they didn't just have a right to do...

 

I alway remember St. Paul's words where he said, "Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth".. while I don't think for a minute the friend was speaking the truth, I see a much deeper truth to the saying.. I see it as saying, "have I become your enemy by speaking". Don't let words define your friendship.. let your action go as they will and let him go as he will; with you or away from you.

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

[chilton747]

some people say what they do because they [think they] are your friend.. they thought they could openly say what they wanted.. isn't that just a form of 'free speech' from which we wish they didn't just have a right to do...

 

I alway remember St. Paul's words where he said, "Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth".. while I don't think for a minute the friend was speaking the truth, I see a much deeper truth to the saying.. I see it as saying, "have I become your enemy by speaking". Don't let words define your friendship.. let your action go as they will and let him go as he will; with you or away from you.

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

I would have to ask the Lord to forgive them for they know not what they say and leave it at that.

[Gordon]

some people say what they do because they [think they] are your friend.. they thought they could openly say what they wanted.. isn't that just a form of 'free speech' from which we wish they didn't just have a right to do...

 

I alway remember St. Paul's words where he said, "Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth".. while I don't think for a minute the friend was speaking the truth, I see a much deeper truth to the saying.. I see it as saying, "have I become your enemy by speaking". Don't let words define your friendship.. let your action go as they will and let him go as he will; with you or away from you.

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

I'm curious... if one excludes any reading material... and since you've been in a prison environment for 18 years... on what basis do you claim the US as the greatest country? How many other countries social, political, and economic situations have you visited and thoroughly studied in person?

 

Just saw the "choosen ones" comment.. now that is funny...

 

This post has been edited by DavidZixuan: Sep 12 2007, 04:23 PM

 

It seems you are somewhat hypocritical David.

[chilton747]

Unless you fear for your life at the time, you need to confront the racism at the moment it happens to let the people know where you stand.

I must say I disagree. I spent the first part of my life responding as such, sometimes with a good whack.

 

But ignorance is not something you change with a comment or a confrontation or worse . You might tell the person they are out of place, but distance is what is needed. Unless they offend my wife in person, but even then I beleive I would walk away,... at least I hope I would.

Of course you would walk away Charles

[SirLancelot]

 

I see no point in confronting another about their actions, nor telling them how it made me feel (well, I would feel anything most likely anyway other than a little sorry for their narrow mindedness)...

 

Let kindness quiet them... eventually they will see the error in their judgement or they will not be able to stick around you enjoying your wonder life...

 

DavidZ, I agree with you probably 99% of the time, but on this I have to disagree.

 

I understand what you're saying above. It's actually quite philosophical and many times I apply what you say above, but the other side of me believes that action is necessary sometimes. If Caucasian Americans didn't join the African Americans and other minorities during the Civil Rights movement, I don't believe the US would be what it is today. Minorities alone could not have effected all the change that took place during and after the Civil Rights movement. There are certain times when the situation requires action as a response--not necessarily physical force or acrimonious verbal assaults--rather than silence or non-response which ostensibly may be viewed as quiet acceptance or agreement.

 

I believe that if you don't confront someone when they're talking or behaving like a racist, that it'll perpetuate this type of behavior from that person. He or she will consider the non-objection as agreement with what he or she said or did. I think of Switzerland during WW2. Their neutrality during WW2 does not make them peaceful by-standers. On the contrary, I think of them as quiet co-conspirators of Nazi Germany.

 

Sometimes one has to take a stance. An overt response is necessary. Bitting one's tongue and keeping quiet is not appropriate in all situations in my opinion.

 

If I have mis-interpreted what you've said, please correct me.

 

Just my two cents worth.

 

Minister wrote:

The only thing laughable about racism is that our open and multi-cultural society is still capable of producing racist thoughts. I have heard a lot of this type of thing too (Mostly jackassy questions about "Is everything on an Asian girl slanted? Har har har" blink.gif ). But, to be honest, that kind of thing doesn't bother me very much

.

 

But I don't think it's you that you should be concerned about. It's your Chinese SO you need to be concerned about. It's much more of an offensive insult to her than to you, as the object of ridicule is not really you, but your Chinese SO.

 

This is something that will definitely create resentment from your SO towards you. If she perceives that you don't care--as in it's no big deal if your friend makes fun of her ethnicity--you'll have problems. Chinese people realize they'll have to deal with racism--that's a given for all Chinese immigrants to the US--but they will not tolerate their own SOs quiet acceptance of or indifference to racism towards Chinese. I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

 

Just my two cents worth.

Edited October 3, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Joshua + Wang Zhuo]

I think it all depends on where the racism originates. Dealing with racism from within the family, from friends and from strangers is different and it has to be dealt with in different ways. I could get confrontational with my family, but that would not get me very far. As much as the racist attitude disturbs me, I love my family and I am not willing to walk away from them and I think confrontation would create a schism from within the family.

 

Joshua

[Dan R]

A song I like expresses this thread well. Anyone remember "You have to be taught" from South Pacific?

 

You can listen to it on my webpage http://www.urban4est.com/growing_up.htm

 

"You've Got to Be Carefully Taught" is a popular song from the musical South Pacific written by Richard Rodgers (music), and Oscar Hammerstein II (lyrics). The song was published in 1949.

 

South Pacific received scrutiny for its commentary regarding relationships between different races and ethnic groups. In particular, "You¡¯ve Got to Be Carefully Taught" was subject to widespread criticism, judged by some to be too controversial or downright inappropriate for the musical stage.[1] Sung by the character Lieutenant Cable, the song is preceded by a lyric saying racism is "not born in you! It happens after you¡¯re born..." The song begins:

 

You¡¯ve got to be taught to hate and fear,

You¡¯ve got to be taught from year to year,

It¡¯s got to be drummed in your dear little ear¡ª

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught

 

You've got to be taught to be afraid

Of people whose eyes are oddly made,

And people whose skin is a different shade¡ª

You've got to be carefully taught.

 

You¡¯ve got to be taught before it¡¯s too late¡ª

Before you are six or seven or eight,

To hate all the people your relatives hate¡ª

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught!

You¡¯ve got to be carefully taught!

 

Rodgers and Hammerstein risked the entire South Pacific venture in light of legislative challenges to its decency or supposed Communist agenda. While on a tour of the Southern United States, lawmakers in Georgia introduced a bill outlawing entertainment containing "an underlying philosophy inspired by Moscow." Interracial marriage was illegal in many states at the time and regarded as a threat by many to "The American Way of Life".

[C4Racer]

I think it all depends on where the racism originates. Dealing with racism from within the family, from friends and from strangers is different and it has to be dealt with in different ways. I could get confrontational with my family, but that would not get me very far. As much as the racist attitude disturbs me, I love my family and I am not willing to walk away from them and I think confrontation would create a schism from within the family.

 

Joshua

 

I will give you that how you deal with it might be different, yes, but still it must be dealt with period if you want a successful marriage. You both need to discuss and agree on how it is handled. It can only be ignored, if and only if she agrees this is the best way. You are either with her or against her. If you are percieved as against her, this could have disasterous consequences for your partnership.

Speaking in General terms, I find it funny how many people get married, speak the vows but do not understand their full meaning. The part about forsaking all others is not just talking about sex. It refers to emotional as well. If you are not willing to walk away from your family for the sake of your wife, maybe you married the wrong person. No matter how much I love my sister, how close we are, I would not hesitate to walk away for my wife's sake. Luckily, my sister is the most supportive person.

I agree with what Lance said, 100%. Especially the part about:

I can almost guarantee that your relationship/marriage will suffer in the long run--and probably the short run--if you don't champion her honor and dignity in such situations.

Edited October 3, 2007 by C4Racer (see edit history)