Racism in China

[Joanne]

Racism is every where. Having lived in the states for 16 years as a Chinese, I had occasional unpleasant experiences pure because of race. But it was just a few ignorant people.

In China, and for that matter, Asian in general, racism is worse. It is really more of ignorance than anything else. When you don't have that much contact with a foreigner, you tend to generalize, about white, black, Koreans, Russians, etc.

Other than race, there is also national resentment. I made the mistake of debating with a cab driver on the bombing of Chinese embassy in Yogoslavia on my first trip back, and did it at night in a dark and remote highway. Almost got me stranded.

Since then I learnt the basic things which should problably work well for others as well.

(1). Don't show off.

Avoid any attitude that you are richer or better.

Any attempt in doing it, esp. from an white American will get resentment. I live in a totally local area of Shanghai. Most thought I teach in University. I never tried to correct them. Not even our nanny nor our maid know what I do. When people ask me where I am from, I would tell them Hebei Province, a relatively poor province. If nothing else, it helps in fending off thieves as well as resentment. We also have some students from EU and US that live in the compound, I see no resent from locals either towards them.

 

(2). Be friendly.

Chinese are actually the least racist in the world. Just think back, in the days of Marco Polo, if it is possible for a Chinese to become the governer of a Italian province. China accepted Marco Polo, because he came in peach and as a friend. Think again about the jews. They were persecuted virtually everywhere in the world for one reason or another. But in the Northwest region of China a whole group of jews settled. They were friendly and came as friendly neighbors. They were the only group of jews in the world that were welcomed by the host country, so welcome, that they completely merged into the local population and disappeared. In recent history there were some hostilities for reasons well known. Even so, if you act like a local, say hi ( preferrably in Chinese like a local), people treat you like one of their own. Moon and other blackman probalby can tell you more. I am sure at the beginning, for instance, for a black man to date a Chinese girl, esp. some one with good education etc., you would get a lot of glares and comments. It is because most Chinese get their perspective of what a black person is like from U.S. movies. But after they get to meet you as a person, the family probably would care less if the man is black or white. NOt sure if it is the same in the US.

 

(3). Stay away from politial discussions.

Probably most on this board never get to know the place well enough to air honest views on politics. Even if the Chinese you meet may agree with you 100% on Chinese politics, they don't take it too well if the criticism comes from a foreigner. If you happen to support the idea of independance for Taiwai, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, etc. it is much safer to keep your thougts to yourself. Even my friends here don't take it too well from a Chinese like me.

 

All that said, each people or individual members of it is entitled to be proud of its heritage and entitled to have his or her own opinion. In China, the difference is that there is not the same demand for being politically correct and thus it would appear to be more outwardly racist. But in reality, China is and has always been more tolerant towards other races and nationalities (Japan excepted) than most other countries. I can only compare it between the US and China. Even when you hear people refer to some as Gui Lao, or H. G., it does not carry the same emotion such as disgust or hatred as where people would refer to " those people, you know." in the states. In China these days, if you are sucessful, you are ok. Black, White, Asian or whatever color. If a few foreigner occassionally get a raw deal like being charged a higher price, I don't see it as a real problem. On my first trip to New York in 1984, a unlicensed cab drove me from JFK to La Guadia and decided to charge me 50 bucks as a tip on top of a fake meter. It was night time and the guy was a big black guy and I spoke just a bit of English. Do I need to lable it as a racial thing? I was purely dumb for getting into a gypsie cab in the first place.

 

 

P.S., My husband followed your advice while living in China. He is very popular.

[Carl]

(3). Stay away from politial discussions.

Probably most on this board never get to know the place well enough to air honest views on politics. Even if the Chinese you meet may agree with you 100% on Chinese politics, they don't take it too well if the criticism comes from a foreigner. If you happen to support the idea of independance for Taiwai, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, etc. it is much safer to keep your thougts to yourself. Even my friends here don't take it too well from a Chinese like me.

 

Both times I was in China I was asked, as an Anerican, my views on the prpblems between China and Taiwan. I didn't want to alienate any members of my new family, but I did not want to give a disingenuous answer either. I gave the answer that best expressed my core beliefs. I simply said that I thought that China and Taiwan needed to settle their differences by negotiation and that the rest of the world needs to stay out of it. That simple and honest answer quickly gained my new family's respect.

[Feathers268]

So far for me, the only political question was about us Californians electing Arnold just before I came to China for the first time. Otherwise it is usually about the differences between American day to day life compared to here in China.

Walking the streets, Jen and I have had little more than a stare or 2 and otherwise have had nothing but good experiences including a taxi driver turning off the meter before accrueing more money than the initial 10rmb for the ride. Not even the fact that the back of my shirt is an American flag causes trouble.

I hope my original post doesn't discourage anyone thinking of coming here for the first time. As a country and a culture, China is a true gem and having the ability to have a more personallized visit is one in a million. I feel sorry for those who will only know China though a tour group. We definatly have it much better.

[Jonathan]

I haven't experienced any racism while in China yet.

 

But I have experienced double pricing. When I asked for the air fare at a travel agent in Cantonese, I got a quote of 850RMB. When my SO asked, it was 450RMB.

 

I think they try to over charge anyone who isn't fully aware or not from the area if they sense it. For me, I can sometimes get away with it and try to blend in, but if you're white, it doesn't take a genious for them to know that you're not from around there and don't know the prices.

 

Basically, it comes down to: they think you have more money, so they'll charge you more.

 

But sometimes, I give them a hint that I know, by telling them, "hey, I buy this all the time, and its usually, xx rmb. How can I afford to buy from you if you're so expensive?" LOL.

 

And usually, if I'm not sure how much something costs, I ask first, and get a commitment. Then if I need to use it, I can say, this person said this...

[SirLancelot]

As for Racism, I have never experienced antisemitism in Asia like I have in the U.S.. In fact knowing I am Jewish is usually a plus in Asia.

 

Shanghai was especially kind to Jews during the second world war. In fact, Israel has recognized the role Shanghai played in saving many Jews during WW2.

 

With regards to racism in China. It's not that different in the US. As for as I know, NOT a single state has a law which explicitly requires any private business to cater to everyone. ALL private business are allowed to eject or prevent any persons from their properties. It is after all private. Schools and public institutions which accept money from taxes are required to cater to everyone but private business without public support or contracts are NOT require to cater to everyone.

 

If I had a small store, I can ask/demand anyone--be they white, black, yellow or green--to leave my store. You actually see a lot of "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!" signs at smaller ma&pa shops. It is completely legal.

 

The only thing you can do is boycott the store or hold a protest and get media attention onto the store but there's no legal grounds for you to be admitted into my private store. So in this regards, American law isn't much better than China.

 

So back to the OP and the hotel stay in China. I do not think your wife was correct in saying they had to give you a room. They do have a right to choose what customers to accept or not accept. There is no law in China which states all merchants must accept anyone and everyone for business. Plenty of taxi drivers don't accept business for many potential passengers whatever their race and for whatever reasons. They'll even kick you out once you get in the cab. I've had this personally happen to me several times.

 

But it is rare to see a hotel turn away business from a foreigner. That's very odd. They generally are in the business of making money and they'll take that from anyone.

[Feathers268]

So back to the OP and the hotel stay in China. I do not think your wife was correct in saying they had to give you a room. They do have a right to choose what customers to accept or not accept.

 

Actually, it was never stated that Jen insisted that we get room. I've called Jen "my little Spitfire" as she has no problem speaking her mind if she feels something is wrong. Over the phone, she was told we had a room and the fact that it was denied upon our arrival was a little more than she was able to take. Also, my first night in China was at the very same hotel so this was the actions of one person rather than the hotel management who gave us a much better rate for a better room at thier sister hotel on the other side of the city. This was compounded by the mocking attitude of the door "man" who when met by his superior, removed both offending parties from the lobby and started desperatly to make things right.

Yes, it is true that here we can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone but if I, a white man, refused to serve a minority, though within my rights and for a legitament reason, I could be in for a lot of trouble including a civil suit saying my refusal was race based and successful or not could ruin my credibility and possibly my business. Even here on CFL, racism has been alledged when someone's post was critisized.

All this being said, Jen's main problem was the removal of a room already promised and the mocking of her husband, as I'm sure most wives here would feel the same and mine was these "people" taking it to a physical level. If someone puts thier hands on Jennifer in anger, to me, to steal a line from "The Fantastic 4", IT'S CLOBERING TIME!

[SirLancelot]

I understand and empathize with your wife and your frustrations over this situation. I don't justify their treatment of your party. No one would like it at all. How you physically react is up to you. Glad you didn't get arrested or jailed.

 

I just wanted to point out that in the US, it's exactly the same, in that a private business has the right to not serve you for whatever reasons. In the US, even if a minority brought a civil suit against you--you being white--for racism or discrimination, they would lose in the court of law. They may win in the public court of media (as I indicated in my previous post) but they have no grounds to win the suit in court. As a private business, you are legally entitled to discriminate on any bases--be it gender, race, age, sexuality, or any criteria. There are private men's only clubs in the US. There are also women's only colleges throughout the US. The KKK would be an example of a whites only private membership club. It is NOT by law that they are slowly dying out. Much more practical reasons.

 

I don't think many people realize this, but it is perfectly legal to discriminate in the US, so long as it's private business/relations. If your business receives any help from state or federal governments in terms of subsidies, loans, grants or business contracts, then it's a different story. But purely private businesses can legally discriminate. Now whether it is right or wrong, that's another matter entirely.

 

It is--or should be--all of our hope that there should be less (or even no) discrimination taking place in the US.

 

Enjoy the rest of your trip in China.

 

So back to the OP and the hotel stay in China. I do not think your wife was correct in saying they had to give you a room. They do have a right to choose what customers to accept or not accept.

 

Actually, it was never stated that Jen insisted that we get room. I've called Jen "my little Spitfire" as she has no problem speaking her mind if she feels something is wrong. Over the phone, she was told we had a room and the fact that it was denied upon our arrival was a little more than she was able to take. Also, my first night in China was at the very same hotel so this was the actions of one person rather than the hotel management who gave us a much better rate for a better room at thier sister hotel on the other side of the city. This was compounded by the mocking attitude of the door "man" who when met by his superior, removed both offending parties from the lobby and started desperatly to make things right.

Yes, it is true that here we can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone but if I, a white man, refused to serve a minority, though within my rights and for a legitament reason, I could be in for a lot of trouble including a civil suit saying my refusal was race based and successful or not could ruin my credibility and possibly my business. Even here on CFL, racism has been alledged when someone's post was critisized.

All this being said, Jen's main problem was the removal of a room already promised and the mocking of her husband, as I'm sure most wives here would feel the same and mine was these "people" taking it to a physical level. If someone puts thier hands on Jennifer in anger, to me, to steal a line from "The Fantastic 4", IT'S CLOBERING TIME!

Edited November 7, 2006 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Feathers268]

I understand your points and I believe them to be quite valid but in our society, once you loose public support, all bets are off. In a civil suit it could come down to the opinion of a jury and here in California, such things have awarded damages in the past.

On the side, Jen and I arrived back home here in the states on Saturday after a quite stressful trip thanks to UAL. That aside, the remainder of our stay was quite wonderful and showed much of the better side of China.

[NewDay2006]

On my first trip to New York in 1984, a unlicensed cab drove me from JFK to La Guadia and decided to charge me 50 bucks as a tip on top of a fake meter.

 

I guess we all learn from our mistakes, some lesson are very costly... JFK is only about a 20 minute ride to Laguardia in the evening and not much more during rush hour as you know now. That was indeed a ripoff

[Stone]

When I was in China, I heard that some Chinese hotels are not allowed to accommodate foreigners. Only the hotels that are designated by China National Tourism Administration to accept foreigners can do so. The reason is: officially, hotels that can accept foreigners have to be linked to the police's network, and have to use that to register the foreigners with the local police. It is not only for the safety of foreigners who travel in China, but also for the image of China hotels in general. This year Beijing has taken out all the old cabs which charge 1.20-1.60 RMB / kilometer out of the street and passengers have to pay 2 RMB/kilometer for the newer model cabs. I think that was also for the Beijing image, before the 2008 Olympic game.

 

Early this year when I tried to book a room in a four-star hotel in Beijing and told them that I have a U.S. passport, the hotel staff simply told me that they are not allowed to take any foreign passport holders. So I had to look for another hotel that can accept foreigners.

[naogong]

And as much as we would like to ignore it, we still have plenty of racism right here in the good Ol USA. The ugly part is covered over, but, it's right there under the surface.

I'm in Chengdu now, for my 3rd trip to China in the last two years, and will be leaving with my wife on Nov. 12th for the US, as she passed her CR1 interview on Oct. 30th. I've spent most of my 3 month long visit's in Chengdu, but have traveled with her to Lijiang in Yunnan province for two 5 day visits, and a 5 day trip to Sanya on Hainan Island, plus the week we recently spent in GUZ this trip for her interview. I have never experienced any hostility, just curious stares, or friendly "Hello's", or laughing "How are you', comments, to which I've always politely responded with "Hello", or "Fine, thank you". While I have always let my wife, or her friends do any price negotiation, or buying things, since she's told me that I'll be charged more, we recently went to a store to have a watch my aunt gave me get the metal watch strap adjusted to fit my rather slender wrist. The man doing the watch repair in a store on Chun Xi street, Chengdu's fashionable shopping area was originally going to charge the very reasonable price of 5 yuan for the adjustment, but when he saw that it was for the "laowai" he said it was for free! I'm aware of the prejiduce between those from the cities, and the rural "farmer's" as my wife calls them, and am no expert on China, but I've experienced nothing but friendly curiosity, or at the best, super helpful kindness from the chinese people I've interacted with, especially in Chengdu. I certainly deplore the treatment that you, and other's have experienced, and don't suggest that it is in anyway a result of your conduct. It just has been my experience that in normal day to day encounter's between laowai's and locals, that a smile, and friendly, self effacing attitude have let me have only positive encounter's with the Chinese folks I've been around. Perhaps, I've just been lucky, and I do think Chengdu is an especially friendly and laid back city to be a forienger in, and Lijiang is an area that get's a lot of tourists and where you are treated well if you are friendly and respectful, but our experience with the watch repair man was certainly a surprise, and a story her family enjoyed when we shared it with them.

[chilton747]

And as much as we would like to ignore it, we still have plenty of racism right here in the good Ol USA. The ugly part is covered over, but, it's right there under the surface.

I'm in Chengdu now, for my 3rd trip to China in the last two years, and will be leaving with my wife on Nov. 12th for the US, as she passed her CR1 interview on Oct. 30th. I've spent most of my 3 month long visit's in Chengdu, but have traveled with her to Lijiang in Yunnan province for two 5 day visits, and a 5 day trip to Sanya on Hainan Island, plus the week we recently spent in GUZ this trip for her interview. I have never experienced any hostility, just curious stares, or friendly "Hello's", or laughing "How are you', comments, to which I've always politely responded with "Hello", or "Fine, thank you". While I have always let my wife, or her friends do any price negotiation, or buying things, since she's told me that I'll be charged more, we recently went to a store to have a watch my aunt gave me get the metal watch strap adjusted to fit my rather slender wrist. The man doing the watch repair in a store on Chun Xi street, Chengdu's fashionable shopping area was originally going to charge the very reasonable price of 5 yuan for the adjustment, but when he saw that it was for the "laowai" he said it was for free! I'm aware of the prejiduce between those from the cities, and the rural "farmer's" as my wife calls them, and am no expert on China, but I've experienced nothing but friendly curiosity, or at the best, super helpful kindness from the chinese people I've interacted with, especially in Chengdu. I certainly deplore the treatment that you, and other's have experienced, and don't suggest that it is in anyway a result of your conduct. It just has been my experience that in normal day to day encounter's between laowai's and locals, that a smile, and friendly, self effacing attitude have let me have only positive encounter's with the Chinese folks I've been around. Perhaps, I've just been lucky, and I do think Chengdu is an especially friendly and laid back city to be a forienger in, and Lijiang is an area that get's a lot of tourists and where you are treated well if you are friendly and respectful, but our experience with the watch repair man was certainly a surprise, and a story her family enjoyed when we shared it with them.

I am in Jiujiang now and I am too going home on the 12th. Any chance you are flying out of Beijing? Be cool to meet up.

[Tony_onrock]

Just to correct one thing about US and Chinese law.

(1). It is not ok to discriminate based on race or nationality in the US for a private business if it caters to the public. Private homes or apartments with 4 or less units can, but larger rental apartments can not. I used to live in Nutley, where a club open to the public threw out an African American wowan saying that it is a European club only. They were sued and lost. An apartment building on the north side did the same thing and had to pay damages.

The same with taxi service. Former Mayor of NYC was refused by a cab once because he was black and the cabbie did not know who he was. The cab was fined. Same thing happens here in Shanghai, if a cab pick and chose customers and refuse to take you, whether because of race or because of shorter distance and he can't make as much, you can call the complaint line and he gets fined. I called once cause the cabbie refuesed to take me from the train station (11 RMB only).

(2). Nationalism is a more complicated thing here in China. It stems more from the past humiliations and bad feelings and a sense of inferiority. There are lots of articles nowadays about this complex. It is the same thing, but if the comment comes from a foreigner, suddenly it became so sensitive.

In most Chinese cities, the people who gets discrimination are not foreigners, but people from smaller cities and the countryside. As far as foreigners are concerned it is just the opposite. Every time I get stopped roller-blading to work in Shanghai, I just start speaking English to the cop. He would then turn polite and explain very, very slowly, in Chinese that the law in China does not allow it. Now, any time that cop see me roller-blading on the road he would just shake his head and I just smile at him. He would mumble something like : "crazy". The other times when I spoke Chinese, things were not that helpful, including once in the subway the security guy forced me to take my blades off or he won't let me on the train and once I had to walk with my socks on through the airport security.

[Cerberus]

And as much as we would like to ignore it, we still have plenty of racism right here in the good Ol USA. The ugly part is covered over, but, it's right there under the surface.

I'm in Chengdu now, for my 3rd trip to China in the last two years, and will be leaving with my wife on Nov. 12th for the US, as she passed her CR1 interview on Oct. 30th. I've spent most of my 3 month long visit's in Chengdu, but have traveled with her to Lijiang in Yunnan province for two 5 day visits, and a 5 day trip to Sanya on Hainan Island, plus the week we recently spent in GUZ this trip for her interview. I have never experienced any hostility, just curious stares, or friendly "Hello's", or laughing "How are you', comments, to which I've always politely responded with "Hello", or "Fine, thank you". While I have always let my wife, or her friends do any price negotiation, or buying things, since she's told me that I'll be charged more, we recently went to a store to have a watch my aunt gave me get the metal watch strap adjusted to fit my rather slender wrist. The man doing the watch repair in a store on Chun Xi street, Chengdu's fashionable shopping area was originally going to charge the very reasonable price of 5 yuan for the adjustment, but when he saw that it was for the "laowai" he said it was for free! I'm aware of the prejiduce between those from the cities, and the rural "farmer's" as my wife calls them, and am no expert on China, but I've experienced nothing but friendly curiosity, or at the best, super helpful kindness from the chinese people I've interacted with, especially in Chengdu. I certainly deplore the treatment that you, and other's have experienced, and don't suggest that it is in anyway a result of your conduct. It just has been my experience that in normal day to day encounter's between laowai's and locals, that a smile, and friendly, self effacing attitude have let me have only positive encounter's with the Chinese folks I've been around. Perhaps, I've just been lucky, and I do think Chengdu is an especially friendly and laid back city to be a forienger in, and Lijiang is an area that get's a lot of tourists and where you are treated well if you are friendly and respectful, but our experience with the watch repair man was certainly a surprise, and a story her family enjoyed when we shared it with them.

Naogong,

 

Fully agree about Chengdu. Probably one of the most laid back cities in China. This is my wife's hometown. Her actual place she visits relatives is the suburb of WenJiang. More rural, smaller but not one problem! A few problems like the driver I mentioned. Other than this the city welcomes Laowei's. There are the stares, Hellos!, etc. Other than this, the city is a very good city.

 

Let me know if you want some deals on the hotels there. Alice¡¯s family is pretty connected. 2 or three relatives have their fingers into the travel agency pie in Chengdu and Hainan.,

 

Dave

[SirLancelot]

Just to correct one thing about US and Chinese law.

(1). It is not ok to discriminate based on race or nationality in the US for a private business if it caters to the public. Private homes or apartments with 4 or less units can, but larger rental apartments can not. I used to live in Nutley, where a club open to the public threw out an African American wowan saying that it is a European club only. They were sued and lost. An apartment building on the north side did the same thing and had to pay damages.

 

 

Housing is an exception. We do have a federal equal housing act, so you can't discriminate when it comes to renting out housing. Families with children can't be discriminated against when looking for housing. So I grant you that.

 

Taxis are part of public transportation. They get some funding from the government so they do have to follow non-discriminatory laws and regulations. Likewise with buses and trains and airplanes.

 

But I could have a restaurant serving only Chinese or only whites or only blacks. That is perfectly legal. But to do that would make no business sense. So it doesn't happen often--if ever.