Reason for Refusals!!

[Zack]

This might be considererd controvercial topic by many of you, but we have to start somewhere....

 

Keeping aside the fact that most of the couples who get the BLUE slip, have a chance to overcome. Why does the visa officer (VO) think of a refusal?

If there is so much evidence that the couple were together, pics, emails, IMs, phone records etc. Why?

Especially in the case where they are already married (IC1/K3), getting a BLUE slip is rediculous. Why?

 

My feeling is, to control fraud cases. Mostly because of the age difference between the man and the women, right?

I think MOST (not all) of the BLUE slips are because of this simple fact, the man is twice the age of the women and hence the chance for a potential fraud.

 

Guys, I am in the same boat, before you vent your anger, think about it rationally. Peace!

 

-Zack

[Guest pushbrk]

This might be considererd controvercial topic by many of you, but we have to start somewhere....

 

Keeping aside the fact that most of the couples who get the BLUE slip, have a chance to overcome. Why does the visa officer (VO) think of a refusal?

If there is so much evidence that the couple were together, pics, emails, IMs, phone records etc. Why?

Especially in the case where they are already married (IC1/K3), getting a BLUE slip is rediculous. Why?

 

My feeling is, to control fraud cases. Mostly because of the age difference between the man and the women, right?

I think MOST (not all) of the BLUE slips are because of this simple fact, the man is twice the age of the women and hence the chance for a potential fraud.

 

Guys, I am in the same boat, before you vent your anger, think about it rationally. Peace!

 

-Zack

238519[/snapback]

Since most of the relationships between USA males and Chinese females include a 10+ year age difference both the vast majority of blue AND pink slips are given to those in relationships with large age differences.

 

I wouldn't read much into this one factor alone. Add some other concerns to it and you have something to evaluate. That's why each case is different.

 

My impression is that the vast majority (NOT ALL) of the blue slips are given to people who are either not prepared or not prepared enough to walk up to the window and conduct themselves confidently.

 

Most petitioner/applicant couples never heard of CFL.

[SmilingAsia]

Visa denial is usually caused by conflicts of information you provided to VO or questionable answers to VO's questions at the interview.

 

I don't think age is a problem. I've seen a past commander of Flying Tiger, aged 84 and with insufficient income, bring his 42-year-old wife to New York.

[warpedbored]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling. Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk. I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication. The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese. There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview. GZ says it isn't. I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

[finenn]

Maybe it's because since GZ is the only place in all of mainland China to get a K1 or K3 visa (least that's what I heard), it would put that little office in Guangzhou under a huge microscope if every single K1 and K3 passed with no problems.

[Yuanyang]

This might be considererd controvercial topic by many of you, but we have to start somewhere....

 

Keeping aside the fact that most of the couples who get the BLUE slip, have a chance to overcome. Why does the visa officer (VO) think of a refusal?

If there is so much evidence that the couple were together, pics, emails, IMs, phone records etc. Why?

Especially in the case where they are already married (IC1/K3), getting a BLUE slip is rediculous. Why?

 

My feeling is, to control fraud cases. Mostly because of the age difference between the man and the women, right?

I think MOST (not all) of the BLUE slips are because of this simple fact, the man is twice the age of the women and hence the chance for a potential fraud.

 

Guys, I am in the same boat, before you vent your anger, think about it rationally. Peace!

 

-Zack

238519[/snapback]

Since most of the relationships between USA males and Chinese females include a 10+ year age difference both the vast majority of blue AND pink slips are given to those in relationships with large age differences.

 

I wouldn't read much into this one factor alone. Add some other concerns to it and you have something to evaluate. That's why each case is different.

 

My impression is that the vast majority (NOT ALL) of the blue slips are given to people who are either not prepared or not prepared enough to walk up to the window and conduct themselves confidently.

 

Most petitioner/applicant couples never heard of CFL.

238521[/snapback]

I agree with Mike in general (what a SHOCK!). I would add that the financials are very important. She must have the most current tax information available for the interview. For example, I completed the P3s for our CR1/CR2 in late November, 2005, but I gave my wife the 2005 taxes (and W2) as soon as I filed them in March, 2006.

 

Another example (and this is NOT scientific by any means; just my humble assessment) is when the USC has a modest income. Maybe it is only slightly above the 125% poverty level. (Some of our members are retired.) Then the VOs are interested in proof that the USC paid for the airfare and not the beneficiary.

 

Remember that Blue Slips are only requests for more information, they are not Denials. For us they are unwanted and they do cause heartache, frustrations and delays our lives together.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Yuanyang (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I think that china is simply one of a few countries where additional scruntiny comes with the territory.. One must expect denials.

 

The proof is simple:

- bona fide relationship (fraud, communication, etc)

- public charge satisified

- documents/comments are in order (truthful, in sync with answers, etc).

- applicant is eligible for a visa (CPC issues, etc)

 

There's been very good analysis in the past and clearly all three of these get hit...

- the first carries the idea of fraud and I do think it's primary to the consulate;

- the second one is simply monetary and prefunctory; if you meet it you satisfy the requirement.

- the third is the easiest to avoid but produces surprisingly more denials than it should.. one should simply be more careful.

- the fourth varies more than it show.. people at same point of CPC involvement can get different results.

 

I think age has little to do with it; china traditional perfers a 10 year + gap... it's culturally acceptable and expected maybe on some level, particularly for older applicants.

 

I agree with bob's comments.. denials are more a request for more evidence or time to review the evidence.. They should not be viewed as a big deal... they are overcome with a very high percentage at CFL.

 

The few thorny ones that persist seem to have the consulte questioning the relationship or communist party issue.

 

I used to be a believer in the concept (raised by some member two years ago, who took a comment from a VO): EFFORT cannot be doubted.

 

I no longer really trust in this adage... I think this is simply a sympathy argument: "We have 500 pages of emails and 1000 webcam photos to show we talked online, etc"... Nothing says that effort is to be trusted by the VO necessarily...

 

Fraud is either one way or two:

- One way: Beneficary is faking it

- Two way: Beneficiary is paying USC

 

Both occur for sure... in either case, the desire is a visa and I would think effort will go into securing it... if she'll sleep with you, then she'll talk to you...

Edited August 18, 2006 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[Guest pushbrk]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling.    Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk.  I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication.  The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese.  There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview.  GZ says it isn't.  I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

238525[/snapback]

First, Carl exceptions don't indicate a "theory" doesn't hold water. This paricularly true when the theory includes, in capital letters and parenthesis (NOT ALL) and says "most".

 

Of course there are exceptions. "Most" COULD be as few as 50% plus 1 but I was thinking more like 75%.

 

ALSO communication is part of PREPARATION. Further, BECAUSE of what we have learned from experiences like Carl's, in the present tense we know that a communication video is part of being prepared.

 

The Chinese SO must be prepared with all the documentation, AND the ability to confidently and competently present IT and HERSELF. This INCLUDES a convincing story about how the couple communicates. Even with all this, there CAN BE red flags or simple misunderstandings that can make the interview change course.

 

I get the impression that most or pretty close to half of the first interviews (not CFL members) at GUZ end with the Blue slip. Many of those were simply not prepared. The vast majority come back with what was missing and are approved.

Edited August 18, 2006 by pushbrk (see edit history)

[Kalli and Greg Oveson]

238519[/snapback]

We may not always know what criteria GUZ uses for approvals or denials and we could discuss this forever. The important thing is that GUZ and CFL have given us so much information to head off denials.

 

The post-interview reports from so many CFL members are a big step in preparing our fiancees for their big day. Another big help is the blue slip examples on CFL. When my SO went to her interview, part of her kitchen sink was the overcome evidence for everything listed on the blue slip that could even remotely apply to us. They did not ask for anything, but if they had my SO was prepared to present it right then, properly prepared, signed, and notarized where necessary.

 

Some time ago, there was a discussion of things that might be red flags to the visa officers and I think many of us are now specifically addressing those things to head off the visa officers before they prepare a blue slip. In my case, the potential red flags were my single visit to China, the quick engagement after our first meeting, and our lack of a common language. We addressed all of those things before the visa officer could bring them up as problems and that seemed to work well for us.

 

Our record of success vs. failure here on CFL is now very good. the hard work we are all putting in is proving it's value. Hard work seems a better way to go than wishing for good luck.

[david_dawei]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling.    Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk.  I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication.  The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese.  There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview.  GZ says it isn't.  I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

238525[/snapback]

First, Carl exceptions don't indicate a "theory" doesn't hold water. This paricularly true when the theory includes, in capital letters and parenthesis (NOT ALL) and says "most".

 

Of course there are exceptions. "Most" COULD be as few as 50% plus 1 but I was thinking more like 75%.

 

ALSO communication is part of PREPARATION.

 

The Chinese SO must be prepared with all the documentation, AND the ability to confidently and competently present IT and HERSELF. This INCLUDES a convincing story about how the couple communicates. Even with all this, there CAN BE red flags or simple misunderstandings that can make the interview change course.

 

I get the impression that most or pretty close to half of the first interviews (not CFL members) at GUZ end with the Blue slip. Many of those were simply not prepared. The vast majority come back with what was missing and are approved.

238536[/snapback]

At times, the most prepared are denied; the most unprepared pass... life is full of surprises... these should probably be as expected as anything else, since it's the human factor at work here.

 

Communication from our side is preparation, but from the consulate side it falls more under bona-fide relationship... We can only prepare so much in terms of VERBAL communication... if the case appears on the up-and-up, then there's really little reason to deny. But the sensitivity factor gets in the way here...

 

The chinese SO does not have to be prepared with all the documentation; history shows that many get denials for items in their possession, but not asked for.

 

Confidently and competently present IT and HERSELF: I think this could possibly be overplayed at times... the average interview asks questions we know are going to be asked, and will result in an approval... it is almost rote. So I might argue in many cases, the SO really does very little and influences it little... The average chinese SO is naturally self-confident too. Being themself is going to help though...

[m-coon]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling.    Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk.  I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication.  The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese.  There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview.  GZ says it isn't.  I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

238525[/snapback]

Carl,

I have to disagree with you a bit. In my case - my wife speaks almost 0 (zero) english and I definately speak 0 (zero) chinese. We just flew through the entire process including our interview this month. The VO never even asked how we communicate....... It has to be something else.

My opinion is a bit different - I think LUCK plays a big factor. Lucky draw of the right VO and everything that goes with it. Are they having a good day? Do they like you? Do you look and smell good? ha ha ..... I just think that as long as the documents are in order - the only other factor can be just pure simple LUCK OF THE DRAW!!!

Scott

[Randy W]

There are plenty of people who are turned down for a specific reason - communication being one of them - but, yes, I agree that it will seem like luck-of-the-draw to us. There will never be a magic formula for getting the visa. No matter how well 'prepared' someone is, there shoud always be a little apprehension about what they might NOT be prepared for

[Guest pushbrk]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling.    Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk.  I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication.  The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese.  There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview.  GZ says it isn't.  I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

238525[/snapback]

Carl,

I have to disagree with you a bit. In my case - my wife speaks almost 0 (zero) english and I definately speak 0 (zero) chinese. We just flew through the entire process including our interview this month. The VO never even asked how we communicate....... It has to be something else.

My opinion is a bit different - I think LUCK plays a big factor. Lucky draw of the right VO and everything that goes with it. Are they having a good day? Do they like you? Do you look and smell good? ha ha ..... I just think that as long as the documents are in order - the only other factor can be just pure simple LUCK OF THE DRAW!!!

Scott

238544[/snapback]

There is not one answer.

There is not one magic pill.

There is not one reason.

There is not one anything.

 

There are many reasons for blue slips. Usually there is more than one reason for ANY individual blue slip but the reasons vary with the case.

 

There are many red flags. A wide age difference is one but not a big one and not a deal killer on its own.

 

No matter how valid the relationship and or how well prepared your documents are, it is the multiple stages of interaction with the VO that make the difference.

 

There has been much speculation that cases are flagged for problems in advance of the interview or even that decisions have been noted before the VO sees the case.

 

I'm convinced the VO sees any notes there are along the process. I'm just as convinced that no matter what those notes say about GRANTING the visa, the VO has the ability to over-rule them if they see something fishy at the interview.

 

I'm also convinced there would be very few interviews like Jim Julian's that last over 20 minutes and end in approval, if decisions were all made in advance of the interview. Really, why waste the time?

Edited August 18, 2006 by pushbrk (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

There have been trends at times... I feel that communication was much more scrutinized about 1-2 years ago than it is now. One member reported back about a 'document of the day' that all VOs appeared to be asking for.

 

So, I think that due to VO turnover, changing focus (on evidence), and the human factor (VOs differing in their handling) will make it impossible to have a one size fit all explanation.

 

My wife spoke near zero english... but we prepared a script and she got all the questions we expected and she was able to just let the interview go it's own way...

 

My biggest concern has always been the human factor in this drama... too much discretionary power to do whatever they see fit. Most of the time, I believe they expect to pass a case. But when one sees an issue in the 12th hour, or sees something flagged in the case, they have little choice than to request info or time...

[david_dawei]

No one really knows and GZ aint telling.??Your theory doesn't hold water pushprk.?I can tell you that my wife and I were very well prepared for her interview and she still got a blue slip. There are other CFL members who were also well prepared that have received blue slips. For us the issue was comunication.?The VO didn't think my wife's english was good enough for the two of us to comunicate and wanted a video of me speaking Chinese.?There is a lot of speculation that the decision is made before the interview.?GZ says it isn't.?I'm not convinced but if so then a lot of peoples lives are affected by a 5 minute interview.

238525[/snapback]

Carl,

I have to disagree with you a bit. In my case - my wife speaks almost 0 (zero) english and I definately speak 0 (zero) chinese. We just flew through the entire process including our interview this month. The VO never even asked how we communicate....... It has to be something else.

My opinion is a bit different - I think LUCK plays a big factor. Lucky draw of the right VO and everything that goes with it. Are they having a good day? Do they like you? Do you look and smell good? ha ha ..... I just think that as long as the documents are in order - the only other factor can be just pure simple LUCK OF THE DRAW!!!

Scott

238544[/snapback]

There is not one answer.

There is not one magic pill.

There is not one reason.

There is not one anything.

 

There are many reasons for blue slips. Usually there is more than one reason for ANY individual blue slip but the reasons vary with the case.

 

There are many red flags. A wide age difference is one but not a big one and not a deal killer on its own.

 

No matter how valid the relationship and or how well prepared your documents are, it it the multiple interactions with the VO that make the difference.

 

There has been much speculation that cases are flagged for problems in advance of the interview or even that decisions have been noted before the VO sees the case.

 

I'm convinced the VO sees any notes there are along the process. I'm just as convinced that no matter what those notes say about GRANTING the visa, the VO has the ability to over-rule them if they see something fishy at the interview.

 

I'm also convinced there would be very few interviews like Jim Julian's that last over 20 minutes and end in approval, if decisions were all made in advance of the interview. Really, why waste the time?

238547[/snapback]

Interesting how similar our last responses are ...I do agree with everything you say here... Nicely put