Legal marriage in U.S.

[Larry T]

You should have the legal marriage ONLY in the US.  I would strongly advise against trying to have anything other than a ceremonial wedding in China.

 

I'll say this about the ceremonial wedding.  It may not be legally binding in the eyes of our respective countries, but in the eyes of Jingwen's family, friends, and Jingwen and me, it was a "done deal".  Go for the ceremonial wedding and have the banquest feast, celebrate to your heart's content, but get the legal paperwork done in the US.

205647[/snapback]

Just an FYI. I read the Public Security Bureau in China has full records of 98% or 1.25 billion residents. Be very careful with your decision. It is hard enough going through the process legally.

 

Larry T

[RLS]

RLS:

 

I am sure everything everyone has said seems like simple common sense, which it is. I will share my experiences with you..

 

Me and my Lulu did the ceremonial dinner with family at nice hotel--about 50-60 people. We made sure we had the words 'engagement" on the backdrop, but had pictures of us in wedding clothing. It was not a legal wedding, but in our minds and in that of the family, the engagement was a commitment to marriage, which was as good as any legal document to us. We did show these photos to USCIS and also to GUZ with no problem. I am not advocating anything or recommending anything, I am only sharing my experience with you.

 

I wish you and yours all the best! BTW, we are expecting our first child in two months!

 

Rob

205748[/snapback]

Thank you for sharing your experience. By the way, best wishes with your new baby. Personally, I think I will not go quite that far with it. I hope to have a big party and let my SO decide how she wants to do that. But, I don't think I will have any signs or backdrops to even hint of being married. I am glad that worked out well with you. Ron

[A Mafan]

All right, now I'm confused.

Why not marry in China after the interview is over and the visa issued?!?

 

Like the man said, if the marriage is legal there, it's now legal here, and vice versa.

 

So why does it matter where you marry, as long as you marry within 90 days?

[Jeikun]

All right, now I'm confused.

Why not marry in China after the interview is over and the visa issued?!?

 

Like the man said, if the marriage is legal there, it's now legal here, and vice versa.

 

So why does it matter where you marry, as long as you marry within 90 days?

205964[/snapback]

Because the purpose of a K-1 visa is "entering the US to marry a US citizen".

If you are already married before you come to the US (regardless of when) - then you are entering for a reason other than the one you were issued a visa for, which technically means visa fraud. It is sufficient reason to be turned back at the POE and quite possibly barred from re-entry for a period of time.

 

It seems like a tiny little detail, but it it's actually a very big tiny little detail.

[A Mafan]

All right, now I'm confused.

Why not marry in China after the interview is over and the visa issued?!?

 

Like the man said, if the marriage is legal there, it's now legal here, and vice versa.

 

So why does it matter where you marry, as long as you marry within 90 days?

205964[/snapback]

Because the purpose of a K-1 visa is "entering the US to marry a US citizen".

If you are already married before you come to the US (regardless of when) - then you are entering for a reason other than the one you were issued a visa for, which technically means visa fraud. It is sufficient reason to be turned back at the POE and quite possibly barred from re-entry for a period of time.

 

It seems like a tiny little detail, but it it's actually a very big tiny little detail.

205982[/snapback]

Why?

Does the U.S. not recognize marriages in other nations?

What is so special about U.S. soil that it's the only place you can get married for a K-1?

 

I understand now that's the way the rule is worded. Now I just want to understand exactly what the justification is for wording it that way.

 

The way I understand it, a K-3 is what you must do if you are already married. The benefit is that you get a permanent green card as soon as the visa is approved. The "cost" is that it takes longer.

So the K-1 Visa was designed so that you could start the paperwork before getting married. The benefit is you get it a little earlier, and you can start the paperwork before actually getting married. The downside is that you only get a conditional (2-year) green card, and only after you actually get married.

The twisted part of this is that they go through so much trouble trying to determine if it's a sham relationship or not...but being eager to get married seems to penalize you instead of providing evidence of love and commitment.

 

I'm not asking for the benefits of a marriage visa. I am more than willing to stick with downside of the engagement visa. I already went through the pain of the last 7 months (and will be 10 months by the time we finally get approved, as things appear now).

 

If I had understood the utter stupidity of this stupid rule (if I had read it word-for-word instead of trying to just understand a logical difference between a marriage and engagement visa), I would have married her last September, in China, with her family and waited a little longer to have her with me.

 

Bottom line: when she has passed her interview, she's shown she's healthy and not a criminal, we've demonstrated we have a real relationship and are both eligible to marry (single) to their satisfaction. At that point, she's been given permission to enter the U.S. on a temporary basis, and that permission becomes semi-permanent (2 years) as soon as we marry. If we marry a few hours before getting on the plane, that shouldn't make any frikken difference.

But due to a stupid, small-minded wording, it does.

 

I know, I know...that's the rules. I'm just venting.

 

It's just that it's about as stupid of a distinction as I can think of. It does nothing to protect the U.S. from fraud. Allowing us to marry in China does nothing to make the U.S. any less safe. The only thing this stupid minor distinction does is prevent us from truly respecting her family by marrying with all the people she is closest to.

 

Yes, you can have the "reception", there.

It's actually a lie, isn't it? You aren't married. If you die in a taxi accident on the way to the airport, your pseudo-spouse gets no legal recognition whatsoever. If you try to go on a honeymoon in China before returning to the U.S., you aren't actually married. And discussing doing that and pretending it was an actual wedding feels dishonest to her.

 

And telling her, "we can just have a reception/engagement party for the family" feels dishonest to me, too.

 

This sucks.

[frank1538]

Does the U.S. not recognize marriages in other nations?

What is so special about U.S. soil that it's the only place you can get married for a K-1?

 

I understand now that's the way the rule is worded.  Now I just want to understand exactly what the justification is for wording it that way.

 

The way I understand it, a K-3 is what you must do if you are already married.  The benefit is that you get a permanent green card as soon as the visa is approved.  The "cost" is that it takes longer.

So the K-1 Visa was designed so that you could start the paperwork before getting married.  The benefit is you get it a little earlier, and you can start the paperwork before actually getting married.  The downside is that you only get a conditional (2-year) green card, and only after you actually get married.

The twisted part of this is that they go through so much trouble trying to determine if it's a sham relationship or not...but being eager to get married seems to penalize you instead of providing evidence of love and commitment.

 

I'm not asking for the benefits of a marriage visa.  I am more than willing to stick with downside of the engagement visa.  I already went through the pain of the last 7 months (and will be 10 months by the time we finally get approved, as things appear now)...

 

Bottom line: when she has passed her interview, she's shown she's healthy and not a criminal, we've demonstrated we have a real relationship and are both eligible to marry (single) to their satisfaction.  At that point, she's been given permission to enter the U.S. on a temporary basis, and that permission becomes semi-permanent (2 years) as soon as we marry.  If we marry a few hours before getting on the plane, that shouldn't make any frikken difference.

But due to a stupid, small-minded wording, it does.

 

I know, I know...that's the rules.  I'm just venting...

 

Yes, you can have the "reception", there.

It's actually a lie, isn't it?  You aren't married.  If you die in a taxi accident on the way to the airport, your pseudo-spouse gets no legal recognition whatsoever.  If you try to go on a honeymoon in China before returning to the U.S., you aren't actually married.  And discussing doing that and pretending it was an actual wedding feels dishonest to her.

 

And telling her, "we can just have a reception/engagement party for the family" feels dishonest to me, too.

 

This sucks.

206319[/snapback]

Well, I can't fault your logic is questioning the law, but legal admission to the United States is governed by law, and the law says the fiance(e) visa is available to an alien fiance(e) "...who seeks to enter the United States solely to conclude a valid marriage with the petitioner within ninety days after admission." The law contemplates marriage after entry, not before.

 

The US could care less where you are married, but if an alien wants to marry in the US, he or she would need a visa to legally enter. For most, that visa is the K-1. You are free to marry anywhere you want, but if alien wants to legally enter the US after marriage, he or she would have to find another visa category that fits his or her status as a spouse.

 

I would like to clarify a couple of your points. First, entering the US on a K-3 visa does not result in a "permanent green card as soon as the visa is approved". While legal permanent resident status is given to a spouse who enters the US with a CR-1 or IR-1 classification, this classification comes off the I-130 petition and not the I-129F petition.

 

Also, a K-1 visa holder's status does not become "semi-permanent (2 years) as soon as we marry."

 

With a couple of differences, entering the US on a K-3 visa is essentially the same as the K-1 - both enter the US as an intending immigrant and both need to do something further to become a legal permanent resident. The K-1 visa holder, after marriage, files to adjust status. The K-3 visa holder either files to adjust status or returns to his or her home country to complete the I-130 processing.

 

Both the K-1 and K-3 visa holder will receive a two year green card if the marriage is less than two years old when the status to legal permanent resident is conferred. Both will have to file to "remove the conditions" in order to get a 10 year green card. It is possible for a K-3 visa holder to have been married more than 2 years when he or she adjusts status. If so, the green card will be good for 10 years.

 

As far as the ceremonial wedding being a lie, I can only say this. My marriage to Jingwen resulted from the two of us having made a commitment to be husband and wife. That commitment came long before our respective governments recognized it as a legal, contractual relationship. Celebrating that commitment with her and her family was both an honor and a privilege.

[RLS]

Does the U.S. not recognize marriages in other nations?

What is so special about U.S. soil that it's the only place you can get married for a K-1?

 

I understand now that's the way the rule is worded.  Now I just want to understand exactly what the justification is for wording it that way.

 

The way I understand it, a K-3 is what you must do if you are already married.  The benefit is that you get a permanent green card as soon as the visa is approved.  The "cost" is that it takes longer.

So the K-1 Visa was designed so that you could start the paperwork before getting married.  The benefit is you get it a little earlier, and you can start the paperwork before actually getting married.  The downside is that you only get a conditional (2-year) green card, and only after you actually get married.

The twisted part of this is that they go through so much trouble trying to determine if it's a sham relationship or not...but being eager to get married seems to penalize you instead of providing evidence of love and commitment.

 

I'm not asking for the benefits of a marriage visa.  I am more than willing to stick with downside of the engagement visa.  I already went through the pain of the last 7 months (and will be 10 months by the time we finally get approved, as things appear now)...

 

Bottom line: when she has passed her interview, she's shown she's healthy and not a criminal, we've demonstrated we have a real relationship and are both eligible to marry (single) to their satisfaction.  At that point, she's been given permission to enter the U.S. on a temporary basis, and that permission becomes semi-permanent (2 years) as soon as we marry.  If we marry a few hours before getting on the plane, that shouldn't make any frikken difference.

But due to a stupid, small-minded wording, it does.

 

I know, I know...that's the rules.  I'm just venting...

 

Yes, you can have the "reception", there.

It's actually a lie, isn't it?  You aren't married.  If you die in a taxi accident on the way to the airport, your pseudo-spouse gets no legal recognition whatsoever.  If you try to go on a honeymoon in China before returning to the U.S., you aren't actually married.  And discussing doing that and pretending it was an actual wedding feels dishonest to her.

 

And telling her, "we can just have a reception/engagement party for the family" feels dishonest to me, too.

 

This sucks.

206319[/snapback]

Well, I can't fault your logic is questioning the law, but legal admission to the United States is governed by law, and the law says the fiance(e) visa is available to an alien fiance(e) "...who seeks to enter the United States solely to conclude a valid marriage with the petitioner within ninety days after admission." The law contemplates marriage after entry, not before.

 

The US could care less where you are married, but if an alien wants to marry in the US, he or she would need a visa to legally enter. For most, that visa is the K-1. You are free to marry anywhere you want, but if alien wants to legally enter the US after marriage, he or she would have to find another visa category that fits his or her status as a spouse.

 

I would like to clarify a couple of your points. First, entering the US on a K-3 visa does not result in a "permanent green card as soon as the visa is approved". While legal permanent resident status is given to a spouse who enters the US with a CR-1 or IR-1 classification, this classification comes off the I-130 petition and not the I-129F petition.

 

Also, a K-1 visa holder's status does not become "semi-permanent (2 years) as soon as we marry."

 

With a couple of differences, entering the US on a K-3 visa is essentially the same as the K-1 - both enter the US as an intending immigrant and both need to do something further to become a legal permanent resident. The K-1 visa holder, after marriage, files to adjust status. The K-3 visa holder either files to adjust status or returns to his or her home country to complete the I-130 processing.

 

Both the K-1 and K-3 visa holder will receive a two year green card if the marriage is less than two years old when the status to legal permanent resident is conferred. Both will have to file to "remove the conditions" in order to get a 10 year green card. It is possible for a K-3 visa holder to have been married more than 2 years when he or she adjusts status. If so, the green card will be good for 10 years.

 

As far as the ceremonial wedding being a lie, I can only say this. My marriage to Jingwen resulted from the two of us having made a commitment to be husband and wife. That commitment came long before our respective governments recognized it as a legal, contractual relationship. Celebrating that commitment with her and her family was both an honor and a privilege.

206413[/snapback]

Thank you Frank for that clarification. I think being able to celebrate with Yonghua and her family will be an honor for me as well.

[Randy W]

Well, I can't fault your logic is questioning the law, but legal admission to the United States is governed by law, and the law says the fiance(e) visa is available to an alien fiance(e) "...who seeks to enter the United States solely to conclude a valid marriage with the petitioner within ninety days after admission."  The law contemplates marriage after entry, not before.

 

206413[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not advocating that anyone try this, but it seems to me that a lawyer could successfully argue that the terms of the visa would be satisfied by a marriage in China. The visa would be issued to a fiance of an American LPR, and the marriage would occur well within the 90 day time limit. No misstatements (lies) would have been made - no checks are made between the issuance and use of the visa.

 

No one wants to risk having to take their marriage to the Supreme Court, or of failing AOS because of the "fraudulent" marriage, but do we know of anyone who has actually done this? (Gotten married after issuance of a K-1 visa, but before using it to enter the US).

 

I can't imagine any legal advice from anyone that I would interpret as meaning it is safe to do this, but do we know of any actual case where this has happened?

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

Celebrate your joy, happiness, and committment with her family and friends in China. It needent be an official affair, as the official marriage for a K1 will be concluded once you're both in the US. Though you will not register engagement and wedding parties in China, most Chinese consider them a socially viable union. So, have a party or two, enjoy it together and with family, keep your head down, and marry once you get to the US.

 

If you need amnesty, you can telephone my lovely Senator Martinez here in Florida. He seems to be handing it out these days....

[shyaushu]

Almost everything seems to have been quite adequately discussed already, so it is your choice, apparently, whether to have a "ceremonial" (vs. legal) marriage in China or not.

 

There is one additional matter, however, that comes up in my mind.

 

Even a ceremonial marriage is probably a "done deal", as Frank said. So, having participated in that in China, and then having your fiancee (and almost wife) come here on a K visa, makes it essentially imperative that you actually get married when she arrives here.

 

In other words, have you considered that "things happen", and even the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go awry?

 

Being in the position of having had a "done deal" ceremonial marriage in China and then having some snafu that prevented an actual, legal marriage here would be awkward, to say the least. It could be anything from a serious misunderstanding to an outright break up, to finding out something unexpected and troubling to whatever. Erring on the side of safety and caution could be the best course.

[A Mafan]

Yep. The people saying "don't try to be the test case" are correct.

I spoke to a lawyer about it, too.

 

Fraud.

 

It sucks, but it's fraud.

My post was venting, the last gasp of irritation/frustration/anger before final acceptance.

But the wording is clear: it is a Visa to enter the U.S. as an unmarried person for the purpose of getting married. Anything else is, as I've repeated a few times, fraud.

 

I understand the idea of celebration with the family. But, honestly: if you have the celebration, then one of you dies on the way to the airport, good luck getting any spousal privileges on the basis of the ceremony.

 

I think of it this way: in the U.S., if you get married in a big church wedding, you exchange the rings, exchange the vows, light the unity candles, "kiss the bride", and "I now pronounce you husband and wife". But you don't actually get married until the pastor/judge signs the certificate and turns it in.

So would you have the ceremony, do all the stuff, have an expensive reception, open all the presents, send all the thank you notes, go on a honeymoon...all without a marriage license? And then a few weeks later go have a legal marriage in front of the judge?

Wouldn't that feel silly? False?

 

I want to celebrate the wedding with her family and friends. Coming back to the U.S., none of my family and closest friends can afford to come to where I live to celebrate with us.

 

So the most important day of my life, the beginning of our actual, legal marriage, will be without any of the people we most care about present. And all the joy and happiness and celebration with her friends and family (whom I also love very much), that should be for a wedding, will merely be to announce that we Will Be Getting Married Really Soon, Now.

 

But for anyone feeling like I do: that's the law. It may be ridiculous, but that's the law.

 

I always thought the most important part of the process was just determining that the person you were bringing into the U.S. wasn't a criminal, wasn't disease-ridden, and wasn't trying to pull a scam to get into the U.S.; if that's the case, it still seems to me that after you have the approval to enter the U.S., you should be able to marry anywhere between the date of approval and within 90 days of arriving in the U.S., but no more than 6 months overall. As such, it seems like there should be a waiver or addendum you should be able to apply for after receiving approval to change a K-1 to a K-3 without having to start all over. After all, you've already determined the exact same things you would need for a K-3.

But that's not the case. Due to some really asinine wording.

 

Still, it's the law.

 

And we'll stick with the law, even though it means we can't celebrate our actual marriage with the people we love.

 

The whole process is dehumanizing, but at least I can end up with the love of my life by my side when it's done.

Edited April 13, 2006 by A Mafan (see edit history)

[Yuanyang]

Some members have had ceremonial weddings with the family and the like. But not registered as married. That seems to be fine as the ceremony in and of itself does not make a legal marriage in China. It's only legal when you register yourselves as married.

[RLS]

A Mafan

post Yesterday, 11:53 PM

Post #28

 

 

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Yep. The people saying "don't try to be the test case" are correct.

I spoke to a lawyer about it, too.

 

Fraud.

 

It sucks, but it's fraud.

My post was venting, the last gasp of irritation/frustration/anger before final acceptance.

But the wording is clear: it is a Visa to enter the U.S. as an unmarried person for the purpose of getting married. Anything else is, as I've repeated a few times, fraud.

 

I understand the idea of celebration with the family. But, honestly: if you have the celebration, then one of you dies on the way to the airport, good luck getting any spousal privileges on the basis of the ceremony.

 

I guess if you were dead you wouldn't have to worry about it,

[Luo_Bin_&_Jialu]

Wow! And to think had problems..

[Guest pushbrk]

Yep.  The people saying "don't try to be the test case" are correct.

I spoke to a lawyer about it, too.

 

Fraud.

 

It sucks, but it's fraud.

My post was venting, the last gasp of irritation/frustration/anger before final acceptance.

But the wording is clear: it is a Visa to enter the U.S. as an unmarried person for the purpose of getting married.  Anything else is, as I've repeated a few times, fraud.

 

I understand the idea of celebration with the family.  But, honestly: if you have the celebration, then one of you dies on the way to the airport, good luck getting any spousal privileges on the basis of the ceremony.

 

I think of it this way: in the U.S., if you get married in a big church wedding, you exchange the rings, exchange the vows, light the unity candles, "kiss the bride", and "I now pronounce you husband and wife".  But you don't actually get married until the pastor/judge signs the certificate and turns it in.

So would you have the ceremony, do all the stuff, have an expensive reception, open all the presents, send all the thank you notes, go on a honeymoon...all without a marriage license?  And then a few weeks later go have a legal marriage in front of the judge?

Wouldn't that feel silly?  False?

 

I want to celebrate the wedding with her family and friends.  Coming back to the U.S., none of my family and closest friends can afford to come to where I live to celebrate with us.

 

So the most important day of my life, the beginning of our actual, legal marriage, will be without any of the people we most care about present.  And all the joy and happiness and celebration with her friends and family (whom I also love very much), that should be for a wedding, will merely be to announce that we Will Be Getting Married Really Soon, Now.

 

But for anyone feeling like I do: that's the law.  It may be ridiculous, but that's the law.

 

I always thought the most important part of the process was just determining that the person you were bringing into the U.S. wasn't a criminal, wasn't disease-ridden, and wasn't trying to pull a scam to get into the U.S.; if that's the case, it still seems to me that after you have the approval to enter the U.S., you should be able to marry anywhere between the date of approval and within 90 days of arriving in the U.S., but no more than 6 months overall.  As such, it seems like there should be a waiver or addendum you should be able to apply for after receiving approval to change a K-1 to a K-3 without having to start all over.  After all, you've already determined the exact same things you would need for a K-3.

But that's not the case.  Due to some really asinine wording.

 

Still, it's the law. 

 

And we'll stick with the law, even though it means we can't celebrate our actual marriage with the people we love.

 

The whole process is dehumanizing, but at least I can end up with the love of my life by my side when it's done.

206678[/snapback]

The only reason you can't celebrate your actual marriage with people you love is BECAUSE of a choice you made to file for a K1 visa instead of getting married in China and filing for a CR1. You still have the choice of getting married in China, abandoning the K1 and starting the visa process again.

 

I take it you investigated your options ahead of time and made your decision based on your priorities at the time. If your priorities have changed, you are still free to pursue a different course.