JamesnYuHong

If you had to go back that far and do that much research to learn about one possible case of it happening (and in this alleged case it was even a Chinese born foreigner), I'd guess it's pretty darn rare! Even without knowing anything else about the issue, I assume that since China does not recognize dual citizenship, you would first of all need to renounce your US citizenship. As for the requirements, given how hard it is to get a Chinese "green card," I assume you would need to make some serious investments or do something very special related to China. (again, since this is an inference, I could be wrong. for example, maybe you can get citizenship easily based on need -- e.g., if you are a refugee.) I don't even think Dashan is a Chinese citizen... Some people with connections to Hong Kong obtain or reclaim Chinese citizenship. They generally, but not always, have Chinese roots. There is a pretty famous caucausian, can't remember his name, who took Hong Kong Chinese citizenship. On the mainland, I think demand is pretty low for citizenship. For someone without roots in China, I think it would be awkward, because what hukou would you go into? In China, social/administrative stuff always goes back to the hukou. Without it, you'd be like an unperson.

Awesome post. Thanks for sharing. I think the most interesting part was this:

Issues of having a flexible personality, realizing that each culture has its positives and negatives, etc. are relevant to about six of the items on my "cons" list. The rest -- specifically, Nos. 5, 6, 7 and 8 -- relate to China's government policy and social infrastructure. Having a heart attack and being allowed to die in the waiting room because you don't have the cash in your pocket to pay for treatment at that specific moment is not about having an open mind. Being forced to pack up and leave your family behind one day because China has not seen fit to provide foreign spouses something more stable than one-year visas to protect them from bureaucratic whim is not about being stuck in your ways. China leaves a lot to be desired if stability is important to you. The powers-that-be in Beijing have decided that outsiders should have only a tentative existence in the Middle Kingdom. I guess they don't want foreigners gaining any political foothold and making trouble.

Hmm ... I just wrote it from knowledge I've picked up over the years, research I've done, impressions I've developed. They are generalities, and there are plenty exceptions. For example, I think Shanghai has some program that theoretically lets foreigners pay into a city retirement plan. And some people do get permanent residency. But as an overarching principle, I think if you are headed to China, it's best to get into the mindset of "I'm on my own."

MEMO DATE: May 10, 2010 SUBJECT: Syphilis TO: Candle for Love members FROM: China Whichever one of you it is going around impregnating our women and giving them syphilis, could you please cut it out? Or at the very least, take some antibiotics? Many thanks!

One major difference -- though not sure if it is important or not -- is that property owners in China generally have more equity in their property than the average overleveraged moron in the States. I think it's a huge difference, because the Chinese owners won't walk away from the property, there isn't likely to be a foreclosure crisis, etc. Trying to compare the property markets directly, and predict how the bursting of a Chinese bubble would look based on the American one, is not too useful. This one has Chinese characteristics.

I think my wife and I would both do the same thing: save the kids. If I saved her and not the kids, I doubt she'd ever forgive me.

Pretty accurate! Housing prices around the 4th Ring Road are at least 20k RMB per m2 -- and in the area around Beijing Normal University and Wu Dao Kou prices can easily reach 30k because of the good primary and high schools in the area. Clothing, food, transportation and even medical expenses can be relatively cheap as long as you stick to a predominantly Chinese routine, but as soon as you start to deviate you'll find that things can get pretty expensive. It is extremely difficult for older females to enter the labor force and without Beijing hukou it is virtually impossible. Some notable exceptions to that may be for those working in KTV bars and as an "aiyi" (maid). You show me an older female who has no Beijing hukou and has recently entered the Beijing labor market landing a job that pays 8k RMB per month and I'll show you an exceptionally "skilled" and industrious KTV girl. What is considered older? The 30 to 35 (and up) range previously mentioned? Also, I thought the girls in KTV tend to be young?

I don't doubt that there is a bubble of some sort, but not sure that its trajectory will look anything like bubbles in other countries. The real estate market is very different. The housing is not as heavily mortgaged; people put family money in, so they have a lot of instant equity. So even if the values drop, they may never choose to sell the properties at the lower prices. And I don't think you will see the foreclosures happen. Also, the musical chairs game of housing doesn't play out in China like it does in the U.S. Of every five houses sold in China, only one is "second-hand." In contrast, 14 of every 15 houses sold in the U.S. are second-hand.

I can totally believe this. Is there a link to a news item or forum post of the previous case you mentioned? Very interested to read more about it.

Here are the pros and cons to living in China, as I see it. I hope others will contribute their thoughts. Pros 1.) China is lively in a way that America has not been for many decades. You can actually walk down a Chinese street and see -- gasp -- people. 2.) Cost of living can be quite low compared to the United States. Especially good if you have a steady source of income from the U.S., such as a pension or Social Security. 3.) Jobs are readily available for Americans, if you are interested in teaching English. 4.) Your spouse will be in her/his home environment and you can enjoy the benefits of the close family ties that Chinese people tend to have. (Especially useful if you happen to have a young child.) 5.) Can be an appealing place for someone who enjoys the international life, learning new languages, being noticed for being different. Cons 1.) Cost of living is not so low if you plan to buy a home. 2.) With the "liveliness" of China comes a loss of the private, "live and let live" type of life you can expect in the west. Everyone is into everyone else's business. And life is a complicated, sometimes tiresome web of who's looking down on whom, who has more money than whom, who's gaining face, who's losing face, who has "guanxi," who's high-class and who's low-class. 3.) Friendship is also a bit different. Hanging out with buddies on equal terms is less common. Friends need to be useful, and if someone befriends you, you can bet they are looking for ways in which you can be useful. If they find that you aren't, you may find that they stop coming around. 4.) Teaching English does not pay all that well. It is possible to make a decent income, but you may need to work hard building up a base of private students or get an additional degree in order to qualify for the top-flight jobs. 5.) Health care is an issue. Better have some cash savings just in case. Don't count on any hospital saying, "Let's save this guy's life first, we'll sort out payment issues later!" You may be able to buy insurance on the private market, but in an emergency, it may not do you much good. 6.) No one is going to set up a 401k for you in China, let alone give you matching funds, so you have to be very mindful of saving for your own retirement. 7.) By the way, while in China, you are most likely not paying into U.S. Social Security. Years you don't pay in bring down your overall average earnings, thus lowering your eventual check. (You can, however, pay in from China if you work for an American company or are self-employed.) 8.) China still does not "welcome" foreign spouses from a visa perspective. You cannot expect any permanency unless you get one of the relatively rare "green cards." Otherwise, you are on a year-to-year basis, always with the possibility that you will be kicked out of the country due to policy changes or whatever other reason. You will also never be eligible for any of China's social welfare programs, such as pensions. Not that China is rich in social welfare, but just sayin'. 9.) You will never, ever fit into Chinese society. It doesn't matter how long you stay, how well you speak Chinese, how successful you become. You will always be an outsider and be thought of as kind of cartoonish. Your opinions and ways of doing things will never be considered up to par, since they aren't Chinese. (Think about how this contrasts with the United States, where foreigners can stay permanently, get the same jobs as Americans, enjoy the same rights, get the same benefits at work and from the government.) 10.) China's pollution may be harmful to your health, as may be the traffic.

Would the citizenship of the children matter? For example, if the children are American citizens, born in the U.S., taken back to China by their Chinese-citizen mother? Also, do you have a link to where the issue has come up before? I am interested in reading about it. Under Chinese law, the children are Chinese citizens (remember the birth mother wants it that way). The American citizenship would not be recognized. Not the case, because they acquired a different nationality at birth, that being U.S. citizenship. According to the Chinese nationality law, they are, therefore, not Chinese citizens.

Would the citizenship of the children matter? For example, if the children are American citizens, born in the U.S., taken back to China by their Chinese-citizen mother? Also, do you have a link to where the issue has come up before? I am interested in reading about it.

Yes, very solid. But not necessarily one that China will do anything about. It may, since they are U.S. citizen children, but it is kind of unpredictable.

Any child born to a Chinese citizen IS a Chinese citizen. All she would need to do to renounce their American citizenship (if she even needs to do that) is get them Chinese passports and use them to enter the country. That is not quite true. Article 5 of the Chinese nationality law reads like this: "Any person born abroad whose parents are both Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national shall have Chinese nationality. But a person whose parents are both Chinese nationals and have both settled abroad, or one of whose parents is a Chinese national and has settled abroad, and who has acquired foreign nationality at birth shall not have Chinese nationality." So the kids are, most likely, not Chinese citizens. Could they become Chinese citizens? I am pretty sure there are provisions in Chinese law allowing kids to acquire Chinese citizenship if they are coming to China to be raised by their parent or guardian. She could sign for them to renounce U.S. citizenship. So it is conceivable. Still, overall, I have doubts that it would go this way. I believe the Chinese courts/government would be more likely to say these are merican citizen children, send the back to America where they belong. A very gray area.

That's very true. I did not think of the passports if he has access to them now. Larry There's laws against forcable seizures, the taking of one's property. He couldn't take the passports away from the children against the mother's will. And being passports would fall under federal law. A lawyer could use such actions against him in court. He can however expose the matter to the authorities; attorneys, police, child protection ancency, to bring it all out in the forefront and possibly bring the matter to a hault. That appears to be the way to confront the matter. He needs to talk with an attorney to see what his options are before things get out of hand. Sorry I am replying to this thread so late, bringing it back from the dead. I am not sure it would be so easy for the mother to get by in China with these American citizen kids. If the father came to China and took them back, I'm not sure Chinese authorities would intervene. The kids are foreigners, in China's eyes, and rightfully belong in foreign-land. On the other hand, the mother would be looking at higher school fees and lack of any conceivable Chinese social benefits such as insurance programs for the kids. Not that China has a great deal of social welfare benefits, but large cities typically have some -- for citizens. These kids lack hukous and Chinese citizenship, so it would be more difficult, though not impossible, for her to raise them in China. Could she obtain Chinese citizenship for them. Very hard to say. It is not the easiest thing to get. Some sort of document showing that she was the sole guardian would probably help. But there would be the issue of renouncing U.S. citizenship, which is required, and I imagine the U.S. government would see some red flags in a case like this. But who knows, she just may pull it off. If she has access to lots of money, either via earning potential or savings, it may be worth worrying about. If not, I wouldn't worry. No Chinese woman I know is going to head back to China and sit around being broke if she can help it.

To get back to the matter at hand, the bachelor's degree is far more important than the TEFL certification. For lots more advice, go to www.eslcafe.com. They have a China forum.

Who should do the I-134? Me or my wife. We both have jobs, and joint tax return.

To really learn the sounds, I think the best method is to find an American or other "foreigner" who has learned Mandarin as a second language. They can teach you in seconds what may take you weeks or months to learn from a Chinese person, if you ever learn it at all. I'm talking about zh, ch, sh, j, q, x and all that. For tones, recorded materials should be adequate for most people. You just need lots of drills. Pimsleur is good, and after you know the fundamentals, just hearing Chinese people speak lots and lots is very helpful.

We often call her family back in China. We usually call them at about 6 or 7 in the evening, EST. So it's early morning over there. All parties involved are alert and feel like talking. Or, we get up early and call them before we go to work. So it's about dinnertime where they are, and, again, all parties are alert.

My wife doesn't seem to value having very close Chinese female friends. She likes to have a network -- people she can call on if she needs something, and vice versa. If she doesn't see value in the person in that way -- for example, if she doesn't think the person would come to her aid if she needed them -- she has no use for them. She knows tons and tons of people, but we don't really hang out with most of them and she doesn't chat with them much on the phone. We had one Chinese female friend we used to hang out with all the time, she was like our sister, but she has moved away. When our kids are born, I imagine she may bond with other local Chinese woman over play-dates, babysitting tradeoffs, and things like that? Who knows. If there isn't a directed purpose, it usually doesn't seem to appeal to her all that much. Life was so hard in China for some many years, among those over about age 30 who come from the working class, who had time to sit and chit-chat about the weather? Most actions in life had to be geared toward a practical purpose. and that's the way my wife still rolls.

They could also be counting on kids for help or living in China, or living from city to city after a wonderful working life?? I personally am planning on living in China in retirement, assuming at that time its still cheaper than the U.S. But still, I know that raising three kids (twins plus my wife's daughter) and helping them with college is going to make saving anything at all a challenge.

I'm 31 and have twins on the way. I can say that I'm glad when I turn 50, they'll legally be adults and not ... newborns! That said, if someone is 50 and wants to have kids, more power to him. But I do hope he's already gotten a good start on retirement savings.

I researched this pretty thoroughly a couple of years ago and it seems that the upper age limit in women before significant increase in birth defects/problems is higher in Asia in general and China in particular than it is in the U.S. I don't remember why, but it's got something to do with environmental factors with some genetic differences as well. You've got me thinking about this now, so I'll try to find the information I dug up last time I looked into this. Interesting to note that census data shows that Chinese-American women have the highest average age of childbearing in the U.S. Probably because so many come here to do PhDs.

Despite what happened earlier in life, now having had Garrett together with your new wife, I believe you are one of the luckiest men in the world. Garrett does look like an awfully cute little man in your avatar.