Another Hero gone

[awch]

Sorry, another note. Xiaoming has never heard of Zhao Ziyang. I found that to be of interest...

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ananmenpolitics

 

 

Security tight in Beijing after death of purged Chinese leader Zhao

 

8 minutes ago Asia - AFP

 

BEIJING (AFP) - Security has been markedly stepped up in Tiananmen Square, amid fears of protests related to the death of deposed Chinese leader Zhao Ziyang, who opposed a crackdown on 1989 democracy protests in the square.

 

Police were out in force, checking identification papers of visitors to the site of the landmark protests 15 years ago where disgruntled Chinese traditionally hold demonstrations.

 

The state-controlled media meanwhile played down reports of Zhao's death on Monday at the age of 85. He had been seriously ill in a Beijing hospital for a month with a lung problem.

 

Zhao had spent nearly 16 years under house arrest after being sacked and disgraced for opposing the bloody crackdown in which hundreds, if not thousands, of unarmed protesters and citizens were killed in an army assault.

 

All major dailies Tuesday carried an identical brief dispatch without comment or photo of the former leader.

 

State television had by Tuesday still not mentioned his death, while reports on the event by international television broadcasters CNN and BBC were routinely blacked out throughout Monday and Tuesday morning.

 

News websites have now begun removing brief dispatches about the topic after shutting down chatrooms dealing with it on Monday.

 

The overseas Chinese Dajiyuan website reported that the state's People's Daily website had more than 10,000 comments on Zhao's death immediately after it was reported.

 

But, as the number of comments began increasing, propaganda officials ordered all websites to shut down chatrooms on the subject, it said.

 

Several of the postings, most all favorable and sympathetic to Zhao, were re-posted on the Dajiyuan website at www.dajiyuan.com.

 

The government's handling of the death appeared to indicate that Zhao remained an embarrassment to the ruling Communist Party and Premier Wen Jiabao, who have insisted the Tiananmen crackdown was necessary to preserve social and economic stability in China.

 

The government concern about possible protests is not without precedent.

 

In 1976 Chinese disgruntled with the ruling Communist Party used the death of popular former premier Zhou Enlai to hold huge protests on Tiananmen Square.

 

The 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests were sparked by the death of reformer and former party head Hu Yaobang.

 

Last week, perhaps already aware of Zhao's fragile health, the Beijing city government announced that security on the square -- where Zhao made his last public appearance with then aide Wen on May 19, 1989 -- would be beefed up.

 

China's dissident community Monday demanded the government hold a public funeral for the reformist former leader and make a fair assessment of his accomplishments.

 

But the news office of the State Council, or cabinet, said Tuesday no information was available on a funeral.

 

Tributes have poured in from around the world for Zhao, with dissidents and the Japanese and Taiwan leaders using the occasion to urge Beijing to push for the democratic reforms which he had envisioned.

 

Zhao served as the head of the Communist Party and China's prime minister for much of the 1980s and is still credited for ushering in economic reforms that have led to 25 years of robust economic growth.

[Guest DragonFlower]

And so it goes.

[eeyore]

ambershu,

 

Thanks for the post, the students ask the world not to forget them.

 

My wife said that after Tienemen square many Shanghainese took to the streets in protest, she was a college student at the time. I would love to post more but I think it prudent to keep silent for now.

 

Thomas.

[Trigg]

Sorry Trigg I don't agree. In the US we can make an informed decision about what kind of politics we choose to back. All information is public and available to everyone. Nothing is hidden. We are free to discuss politics, say bad things about politicians, protest, post on websites, write books or whatever.

 

Can Chinese claim the same freedom? Do they really have in any choice in their politics? Do they actually know the truth about Mao and Deng Xiaoping and everyone else? Do they have the information to make an informed decision about who they support? Sorry, I think not. I think a lot of Chinese support Mao for no other reason than they have been told to. Becuase they have been told that he was a great leader and that he made China into a great country. If they knew the truth about the Party's past (and I'm not saying I do) then I don't really think Mao and other dictator's would have so much support. Why do you think the Party is so closed? They know that they key to their future is also the key to their past. It's about power.

 

Do people still support Hitler? Maybe a few, but not the overwhelming numbers like we find in China. Why? Becuase German people know what he did. They know the truth. Chinese don't.

 

Maybe brainwashed is the wrong word.. sorry if that offened you. I meant that Chinese don't have the freedoms we do and when they are presented with our freedoms they often don't have the rational and critical thinking to accept what they find. Do you think that's an accident?

You make my point when you are so sure that we, as Americans, are more adept at critical thinking because we have so much more freedom to think. I agree only so far as I am told we have so much more freedom to think-I don't know this to be THE truth. Rather I only know it to be MY truth.

 

Stated another way there are always three truths. MY truth, YOUR truth, and THE truth. MY truth is obtained by gathering information and assimilating it into my way of thinking that has been dictated by MY personal knowledge, learning,experiences and teachings. YOUR truth is obtained in the same way only it is based on YOUR teachings etc.. THE truth is only seen by those who have none of the above trapping.

 

Hence, as related to this topic there is the American truth, as seen through our eyes, The Chinese truth, as seen through their eyes and THE truth as seen only through totally objective eyes. Subjectivity rules supreme when searching for reality and only through the objectivity that eludes even the most open minded of us can the real truth be seen.

 

What is true for you may not be true for me and is likely not true when looked at through he Chinese mind.

 

If it is perceived as real, it is real in it's consequences. Therefore never become so seeped in reality that one forgets life is about perceptions.

 

Just my opinion

 

Trigg

[Guest DragonFlower]

Well,Trigg,I'd then have to say we are surrounded by shades of gray.

Even an alien observing us from his spaceship would base his conclusions on his prior knowledge.

I would still like to think the more informed a person is,the more objective they can be.

I think we might observe from our Chinese counterparts,that many are not very well informed about their own history.

 

long

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

Trigg,

 

As Edie Brickell once sang so sweetly:

 

"Shove me in the shallow water, before I get too deep".

 

Damn, that hurt my head.

[Trigg]

Trigg,

 

As Edie Brickell once sang so sweetly:

 

"Shove me in the shallow water, before I get too deep".

 

Damn, that hurt my head.

Mine too. I gotta get over this delusion of reciprical intelect.

[Guest DragonFlower]

Sorry,some of us just don't operate on your plane of existence.

Lonely up there?

[Robert S.]

When I was overseas I knew a very well educated Chinese lady who actually believed the propaganda she had been taught, even to the point of stating that there were American agitators among the students.

[awch]

Trigg-

You seem to be contradicting yourself a little. You mention an American truth and a Chinese truth but how can these exist if everyone has their own personal truth?

 

Personally, it seems to me what you call "personal truth" is actually an opinion, not a truth.

 

I also believe that there are objective "truths" such as numbers. Would you debate the number of dead in the recent Asian tsunami? Or is that just a Sri Lanken truth or and Indnesian truth? And some numbers that Chinese don't have access to are how many people died during Mao's reign, with his full knowledge.

 

It's fun debating with you!

amber

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

Go get him Amber. 10 - 3, Amber in the lead.

[awch]

mark- i posted some messages in your RR too.. hoping to get some responses there.....

[warpedbored]

Gotta say Trigg has a point even if it was a convoluted way of getting there. In a nutshell what we hear is propoganda as much as what the Chinese say is propoganda. The truth is somewhere in between. For instance I have no doubt the Chinese government white washed this to their people but on the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if the US didn't have some instigators stirring things up.

[awch]

It really depends on what you're talking about- what people tell you such as what's taught in schools, or info available.

 

I'm refering mostly to the freedom of information available. It's obvious, from the number of books banned in China, extreme censorship, etc that the US has a lot more info available for people to make informed decisions than does China. Not all of it is "raw" truth but a lot of it is. Most of what we have in the US is NOT propaganda, while in China it almost all is.

 

By the way, the word "proganda" in Chinese does not have negative conotations.

[MarkLuvsShuPing]

mark- i posted some messages in your RR too.. hoping to get some responses there.....

Thanks Amber. Yeah I saw that and you got several responses. I even responded.

 

Looks like a good topic, but now, again, I'm the only one there.

 

Long, it really doesn't take much to open 2 windows in your browser. Have CFL on one and RR2 on the other, that way you have access to both.