Marriage between US divorced man and Chinese divorced woman

[Catherineli]

I first thought this K1 already in the USA. No wonder there is a high divorce rate among the inter-culture marriage. I think many people rush to the altar for flesh desire.

 

Thank you everyone that I learned many new things lately, such as "one eye on the altar and the other eye on the exit sign", "obdurate stance", "gutter phpher" and "roaches, or cockroaches", very good metaphor!

 

Hi Joecy!!!! Carl, Mick, Dennis, Tom, Randy!!!!

HI Moondog, we all hope you a happy life!

Edited July 28, 2014 by Catherineli (see edit history)

[NUWORLD]

A K-1 visa is to give you time to plan a wedding. It is not intended for use as a trial marriage. You are supposed to be 100% sure before you bring her over here. As Dennis mentioned it could cause her great shame as well as great harm. Before she comes she has to quit her job, move out of her home. pack and ship what possessions she wants to take with her and dispose of what she can't keep. How is she supposed to pick up the pieces and move on with her life should you reject her once she is here? Shame on you for even considering such a thing. Settle the issues once and for all before she comes or cancel the whole thing.

I have been following this thread for some time now and as many members here have given good advise.

But as the OP stated.

 

 

In that case, she can return to China. No harm, no foul. But I tend to think her views will moderate as she spends more time in the USA.

 

I agree with what Carl said here.

DO you have any idea what this could do to her??

Carl pretty much summed it up.

 

On the other hand, Lets put our self in her shoes for a moment.

 

As Carl said: She packs up everything she can in maybe two maybe three suit bags.

The rest, She sells or give to family members and this include the house she lives in today.

All the rest is GONE!!! forever and never to be had again.

 

She now gets on the plane and with all the layovers and all the time she will have traveled (22-25 hours)

 

I'm not sure if you have been down this road before BUT! i do know and many here will agree with me that a Chinese woman

after been traveling for that much time is NOT a happy camper.

 

You may think she will be tired and just wants to sleep when she gets to your home, WRONG!!

 

She will do a walk though the house and the rearranging begins.

Your house will not look the same as it did 24 hours ago.

 

Welcome to the Chinese world!

 

I tried to stay out of this one but.............?

 

My friend, YA need to get your ducks in a line and they need to be very straight in line before you continue down this road.

Not so much for your well being after you sent her packing back to China IF you do?

 

It's more for her, Losing face and having to deal with family and friends back in China.

(Google losing face in china and you will understand the hardship she will endure)

 

 

Improvise - do what ever you have to do to get where you need to be

Adapt - To your surroundings.

Overcome - Learn to deal with failure and move on.

 

 

Ya better get this figured out now and not after.

I mean figure it out BEFORE her interview in QZ.

 

Good luck and god speed to both of ya.

Edited July 29, 2014 by NUWORLD (see edit history)

[tsap seui]

I am by no means a man who understands Chinese women or the whole cultural thing involved with a Chinese American relationship....I don't even purport to be a very smart man for that matter.

What I found and feel is, and instead of telling you what you should do or pointing a finger at you I’ll put it in the terms of what I did with this situation.

I spent a lot of time in China getting to know my girlfriend whom I met in 2006, then three years later marrying her in China in 2009. I always looked at my trips to China to be with her as "business" trips.

Instead of going to see the sights in China (as I had already seen enough sights in the world and felt those type trips would take away from the real issue) we spent countless hours in hotel rooms (later in the home I bought for my then girlfriend in 2008) working on the business of her getting to know me in every detail I could give her, as well as my getting to know her and her life in China as a young woman, then a married woman, and how it was for her as a divorced (with child) woman. We talked of everything we could think of about how we lived, what we did, and about the differences we found in our conversations about how things were different in America and China.

The issue of my being friends with my ex-wives as well as other women that I had dated etc., came up and I told Wenyan I was friends with both of my two American ex-wives and had other women that I was friends with. That really brought up one of her beautiful eyebrows and you could clearly see a huge question mark on her face. She quickly explained "Ah, that is not the way in China, do many American people do this" she asked, but she let that fact simmer in the background for a few days and then it started rising its head every so often. At first she couldn't get her mind wrapped around this..."Friends with your ex"??? "You talk with each other"? "You see your ex-wife often"? I went on to tell her that my daughter's mom and I had never married or even lived together but that we were friends also as we had a daughter together and we talked from time to time about our daughter…I tried to be open an honest with every aspect.

I asked about her ex-husband? I asked, "you have a son together, do you ever talk with him about your son?" I explained that it wasn't like I was in love with any of these women, it was just that I had been very good friends with them in the past and that when we saw each other we did say hello and ask how each other were doing, that a divorce ended our marriages but it didn't end the friendship. I told Wenyan that I would like to meet her ex-husband, that I may well be taking his son to America and I would prefer to be friends with the man. That remark really raised both of those lovely eyebrows. LOL

What I found, and Wenyan's remark, "I feel insecure and a loss of confidence with you being friends with your ex-wives and your daughter's mother", really drove the point home was that this can be a huge security risk to a woman who doesn't see this behavior in her society. INSECURE!!!!! Hell, this going to America thing was all about SELF SURVIVAL for her.

Man, did this really make me see that I needed to look at this through my wife's Chinese culture eyes. Heck, I even took notes on things she told me in our conversations....after all, it WAS a business trip. A business trip in both of our eyes now as I had explained to Wenyan that I looked at our getting together on my trips as a business meeting and she readily saw exactly what I meant, and felt the same way. We had BETTER get to know each other. I saw clear and hard that this was way beyond the "blind date" (a whole other story there) I went on my first trip to China to meet this woman. That this was a damn serious business for me to be taking a Chinese woman away from everything she ever knew, and transplanting her in a whole new culture, away from her comfort zone of friends, where to go back to China was to be seen as a failure on her part (a loser in a land where "face" means all), away from where what her life and culture had taught her were the rules to this new place where "the rules" as she knew them could be completely upside down in effect.

My talks, and notes from my talks with Wenyan showed me this. And here I must say, I am not trying to say this is how it is with every Chinese woman but it is how it was for my Chinese woman in her entire life until she met me.

Wenyan explained to me in great detail how it was in "her" world.

A divorced woman, especially a woman with a child, is used goods. Oh, she may wind up being somebody's "girlfriend" or "second wife" where she is at the whim of some married guy, but that the chances of finding a truly loving and honest husband were nil to none, particularly if the woman is over her early to mid-thirties in age.

The divorce in China is it for any sort of friendship with your ex. If a woman has a son in the marriage then maybe the father will talk to her about "his" son, if the woman even gets to keep custody of the boy. But, being friends and talking about simple things like, how are you doing today, etc. just doesn't happen.

A divorced woman is completely on her on. If her family home has a son living in it, if that son says no to her coming back to live with ma and ba, then she is OUT, brother… (pun intended)

The divorce decree is it. The ex-wife may get a onetime settlement but there ain't none of this alimony stuff that carries on for years....meaning a relationship between the ex's is over with and does not carry on in any sort of fashion.

A Chinese woman has it pretty tough, I found. She has to be tough, even demanding. Add in this “face” thing that we American’s may simply call “keeping up with the Joneses” on first blush…no, this face thing is way more serious in every way to the Chinese.

It took me awhile but I finally picked up that most every move my girlfriend, then wife, made….those moves were all about survival and self-betterment, especially in the tough world many Chinese women find themselves in when divorced, and with a child, especially so with a female child.

I found that this relationship with a Chinese woman had very serious consequences for Wenyan should things not work out in America. Yeah, we were like two peas in a pod, lovey dovey and all that stuff but my taking her out of her element to America was DAMN SERIOUS BUSINESS for her.

The enormity of it all overwhelmed me there for a while and made me stay awake at night in self-conversations as to if I were doing the right thing by taking this woman and her child to America. Good grief, this is way above typical husband wife stuff. A failure in the marriage wasn’t just some “so sorry it didn’t work out I feel like shit about it, we’ll move on and find better happiness next time melodrama.”

No, a failure in this sort of marriage could ruin the woman I took out of her element, as well as her son.

For either of them to go to America and the mom have a marital problem that forced them to go back to China would be about the most devastating thing that could possibly happen to either of them. I can’t write that in large enough letters to describe the enormity of it, and the terrible consequences it would give both of them if they had to go packing back to China.

So, I found myself as a man in love with this dear woman, having to soul search and ask myself if I was actually doing the right thing by uprooting this woman and her son and taking them to America? Was I really ready for something this potentially life impacting on them both, should we have problems down the road?

Given our problems with legal immigration I was given almost 5 years to ponder this, study it, and have Wenyan learn about me as I learned about her. Wenyan and Fengqi were finally given their freedom by the State Department and we flew to America in 2011.

In that time I learned that my wife was all about her and her son’s personal security. Loving some guy from America was number two on the list. A distant number two I might add. I was not blinded by my hard-on and thought this girl loved me. Hell, she never knew what love was or even felt like in China.

If the marriage got broke down the road, especially in the early years, sending her back to China was not going to be an option. Now way was I going to do that to her, or her son. I have a conscience that would never let me rest, especially now that I had a much better idea of what this Chinese American relationship was truly all about.

So, when my wife talked to me of her concerns about my relationships with other women, or with my daughter, I knew she was talking about her and her son’s personal security. And why the hell shouldn’t she be? She was the one losing everything she ever knew, she’d be a fool to not have serious concerns.

Wenyan didn’t lay any ultimatums on me, but she came close to it and we sure talked for hours about this new to her concept.

I agonized over this bringing her to America …thank you Department of State, for a very long time.

I vowed to myself that if something ever happened to our relationship that I would do or spend anything in my power to make sure she and our son was able to live in the same type home and environment as they would have living with me, for as long as it took, so that they neither one had to go back to China as an option.

Going back to China for a woman anyone of us brings here to America is NOT AN OPTION in my mind, should the relationship turn sour. Yes, there are conniving Chinese women out there, but probably not as many as there are American men that need a checkup from the neck up.

Wenyan had had enough insecurity in her life….I wasn’t going to add to that.

Moondog, when I read your woman giving you an ultimatum like that, what I read and feel is here is a woman who is clearly and honestly telling you about her feelings of her personal security and survival.

Is it a deal breaker? I’m kinda slow to pull a trigger on a judgment call like that with only the info you have given us. Maybe it is, but maybe it is something that she will talk over with you.

The one thing it is, is she is voicing her feeling of her future security. I am sure this woman has been through a lot already. Our relationships with our exes and children and step children is new to most Chinese women. They would be crazy to not voice their concerns.

For what it is worth, most all of the problems I see from the Chinese women over here in America, that my wife talks to on the phone or QQ, etc., have is their husband’s relationships with their children and ex-wives. This alimony thing that drains money away from their husband’s incomes, and anything else that takes money or time away from the woman’s feelings of security.

I don’t see that as an over controlling woman, I see it as a woman who is preparing to be taken out of her comfort zone and placed in a new situation that in her country would be a huge red flag to her security.

Good luck to you with this. And good luck to your woman should you bring her to America.

 

tsap seui

None of my words were meant to dis or despair anything that anyone else said. It is all how I view this subject, and how I went about it when I came within an inch of getting an ultimatum my owndamnself.

[Greg.D.]

..........

My take is that, overall she's not controlling or manipulative. But these two topics are boundaries she's not willing / able to budge on.

 

My intent is to find a partner and companion for the rest of my life. In every other aspect, I feel she's perfect. And these two areas aren't deal-breakers for me, in and of themselves.

...........

First, I want to say that this has been a great thread. By that I mean, it seems to have brought out the best in everybody in that, where other threads meander off topic, get hijacked, become injected with humor where it's not required - or vice versa! - people are posting heartfelt and intelligent comments about the matters that are at the crux of a relationship. And, it's been a great read. My hat's off to moondog for returning and participating.

 

I gave my comments earlier in the thread and I offer another one here: Moondog, you seem reasonable and, consistent with my first comment that you would regret breaking relationships you have for her sake (i.e. don't), I suggest you ask her to trust you.

 

I say this to give you the confidence that you are taking the right line in this discussion, you are reasonable by our culture, and part of this early test is to ask her to trust you for now. I don't think anyone has ever said in the history of this forum or others like it that an American man (or woman) can hold the line with regards to, for instance, denying the future spouse's relationship with her parents. We all feel it is "Different Cultures 101" that our spouses from another culture likely intend to include their parents in their future life. We say here "marry the woman, marry her family". We are proud that we understand this and stand by it.

 

I think what you are expecting from her here is similar and equivalent and extraordinary feelings are pushing her in the direction she is taking (for now). Maybe we can suggest a movie that illustrates the western concept of the ever-extending family as divorces, deaths, accidents and life happen. Gently find ways for her to imagine different outcomes. I like that we don't cut off exes and ex-step children. Sure, sometimes it is messy, but I think it works.

 

I liked what Catherine Li said about this being the time to test everything you can now - after the marriage, only work together and for positive outcomes. Or, something like that! Good luck!

 

Greg

[ameriken]

Been following this thread and withholding comments because in the past I have been far too judgmental of one party after only hearing one side of the story and just one perspective. While some here want to label her as controlling, isn't it also possible that some of her friends on the other side of the ocean might also label moondog as controlling? I'm not saying that either is controlling or demanding, but rather how easily this cross-cultural and transcontinental communication can easily be misunderstood.

Personally I'd love to hear her side of the story so we'd know how she views the situation. Any chance of her becoming a CFL member?

[Catherineli]

Wow, all the contemporary writers are gathering now on CFL to give me a literature class! I've learned a lot from your English expressions. It's the first time that I read Rawknee's English in a serious way (used to be funny).

 

* My hat's off to all the writers on the CFL.

* I can't show my respect and appreciations in large enough letters.

* It would be crazy for me not to voice my new learnings of English skills.

* Chinese women also need a check up from the neck up.

* I will bring a large bag of sugar as my gift to Moondog so their relationship won't go sour.

* I'm amused with the expression "keep up with the Joneses" on the first blush?

Who would pls give me a nudge of the word "Jonese"?

Good question, Mr Ameriken!!

"Come to CFL, show up, Mrs Moondog, please!"

[ameriken]

'Joneses' is plural for the American family name 'Jones', and 'keeping up with the Joneses' is an idiom based on the obsession of trying to maintain the same (or better) socio-economic status as your neighbors (the Jones family). If they buy a pool, you buy a bigger pool. If they buy a 55 inch tv, you buy a 60 inch tv.

 

There is a movie based on this, appropriately named "Keeping Up with the Joneses".

[Dennis143]

Been following this thread and withholding comments because in the past I have been far too judgmental of one party after only hearing one side of the story and just one perspective. While some here want to label her as controlling, isn't it also possible that some of her friends on the other side of the ocean might also label moondog as controlling? I'm not saying that either is controlling or demanding, but rather how easily this cross-cultural and transcontinental communication can easily be misunderstood.

Personally I'd love to hear her side of the story so we'd know how she views the situation. Any chance of her becoming a CFL member?

Well Ken, Moondog posted asking us for advice on cultural differences, so instead of ignoring him because we didn't also hear from his lady, we chose to respond.

[ameriken]

 

Been following this thread and withholding comments because in the past I have been far too judgmental of one party after only hearing one side of the story and just one perspective. While some here want to label her as controlling, isn't it also possible that some of her friends on the other side of the ocean might also label moondog as controlling? I'm not saying that either is controlling or demanding, but rather how easily this cross-cultural and transcontinental communication can easily be misunderstood.

Personally I'd love to hear her side of the story so we'd know how she views the situation. Any chance of her becoming a CFL member?

Well Ken, Moondog posted asking us for advice on cultural differences, so instead of ignoring him because we didn't also hear from his lady, we chose to respond.

 

 

However, kudos to the many of you (yourself included) who at least tried to empathize with her rather than simply ragging on her.

Edited July 30, 2014 by ameriken (see edit history)

[Catherineli]

Thank you Mr ameriken! "keep up with Joneses" is a funny idiom I like. Well, I won't keep up with Jonese when I wish everyone a billionaire, because I'll live with a millionaire happily.

I'm also amused with your name. Why don't you spell your name like "American", "Merican" or even "Uncle Sam"? then everyone will call you "Uncle"? lol, forgive me pls for asking too much lol

Edited July 30, 2014 by Catherineli (see edit history)

[NUWORLD]

Thank you Mr ameriken! "keep up with Joneses" is a funny idiom I like. Well, I won't keep up with Jonese when I wish everyone a billionaire, because I'll live with a millionaire happily.

I'm also amused with your name. Why don't you spell your name like "American", "Merican" or even "Uncle Sam"? then everyone will call you "Uncle"? lol, forgive me pls for asking too much lol

Lets try to keep on topic and give Moondog some respect for he started this thread.

 

Please lets stay on topic.

As others have said this is one of the better/best thread we have had for some time now.

 

Yes, We and myself have come down a bit hard on the OP in this thread.

But it's the real world and we all are here to teach and help one and all here on CFL.

 

Yes we only see one side of the story and there is always two side to it, No matter the way you/we look at it.

 

Culture is a amazing thing in the world we live in.

Think about for a minute.

 

We find what we think is our soul mate half way around the world (No joke! The world is very large indeed) and we take a chance... a risk... Call it what you may.

Then what do we do? We play cat and mouse with our wonderful government (Really?) paying tons of money and time.

Filing 5 pounds of visa papers.

Waiting 10-15 months only to have our wife/girlfriends sit in front of a glass windows with someone that has no idea who you/we are and could care less.

 

This person has more power than the man above, The one that made the world we all live in.

It's amazing that one person behind a glass window has that much power to say if we are allowed to be with our loved ones.

 

Just amazing!

 

Getting a bit off topic here.

MoonDog indeed has some issues and I'm sure he will take care of what is needed for his world.

He is a man and is indeed strong.

 

We all have been down this road before, It's a never ending road for we all have something in common.

 

Were all married to a Chinese woman/man

 

MoonDog: God speed to ya buddy and good luck.

 

Mike: AKA Nuworld

Edited July 30, 2014 by NUWORLD (see edit history)

[Catherineli]

Okay, Sir!! My hat's off to you!!

 

Mr Moondog, everyone is talking the same that marriage is no rush! Everyone needs enough time to make a lifelong decision. No one can afford more marriages! Our CFL is a true counselor!! I like everyone!!

Edited July 30, 2014 by Catherineli (see edit history)

[Zhenghong]

You name moondog?

Sorry for my english is not good.

 

My husband tell me i should look at this massage and maybe help understand.

 

I married to american man now for 8 years now.

I be in america 7 years now.

 

My ameican husband is my number 2 husband for i marry ago in china to first husband.

this not work for me at young years so marriage book brake.

 

My family very no happy with me and tell me go away.

my father tell me you no more my daughter you have dishonored your family.

 

i can not say what this feel like but i go away and family is gone.

 

 

I travel china alone with myself trying to live alone for i am used goods and not wanted.

it very hard time for me.

 

My husband tell me of your story and i can feel the pain again.

It make many years before family take me back.

Today, family will never forget my shame to the family and they bring me back.

 

I marry a man in america in 2006 again family no happy.

But after family look a new husband and talk,eat,drink there is something new.

 

I now have a new life, family and love again.

It was a long hard road but my god helped me me.

 

My husband said i should teach you chinese culture.

chinese culture is 5000 years and i do not understand this time.

for i only understand my time in the world.

i can not teach you with email

 

I can read small english but i see it could be good if your world and her world work together

 

try and look in her eyes and see what you see in her eyes and you will feel her world and then understand.

 

my name hong and i understand losing face for i live it ago

[warpedbored]

Very well said Zhenghong

[tsap seui]

I agree with Carl, Zhenghong, well said....you have lived, and verified the life my wife told me about.

 

NIce to see you doing well in America.....

 

tsap seui