Freedom of religion in China

[SheLikesME?]

When they rise up for this freedom then they are ready for it. Just my opinion.

 

 

 

I agree, it can be dangerous to make generalizations but I think the average Chinese is more worried about economic opportunities/freedom than religious freedom.

 

Yep and the uprising in Tiananmen Square HELPED the Chinese citizen have a better life today. It cost their own blood, like any freedom.

 

I have had to realize, the hard way, why China is not open to Christian proselyting. In general, the people have not demanded it, or as I say, not ready for it. But association with the outside world slowly changes this.

 

Look at the corruption in businesses and every day life there - this train incedent now. (Yes of course we have many bad apples too, but overall...) When I went over in 2000, for the first time, I was asked first if our people really go to church one day a week. That surprised me. Then this same man had to insist and enforce American ways of doing business to the airplane companies - HONESTY! People hear things and ask. So I think it is better to take a higher road, just my opinion, but on the other hand if Chinese WANT underground meetings then I am 100% for them doing that. It is people doing this that caused the govt to give in and allow citizens to join certain churches freely.

[pbatt]

IMO it seems the Falong Gong was a protest group that used religion as a cover.I have always felt this is what worries party rulers more than anything.That protests will arise from these religious gatherings.

Besides the people were told openly to not go there and if they did would suffer the consequences of their actions.

Most Chinese I have spoken with that have religious beliefs never seem to have any problems and practice their religion openly.

 

I also think part of the problems arise from people that keep trying to smuggle bibles into the country. I often read people trying to bring in 600 or more bibles into the country when customs rules state you cannot bring in so many, yet when they get caught cry the government is against religion. Yet these same people never admit what they were doing was against the law all the time.

 

Since China is home to many atheists as well people feel a need to convert them. I have a very good Chinese friend in Singapore who always told me she wanted to believe in religion of some sort and attended a couple of church meetings in SG but the group was over fanatical to the point of calling her several times a week to make sure she attended the next weeks ceremony. She became scared of them. Since I was working there I talked with them and told the guy to leave her alone or there would be consequences.

 

Riding the MRT I daily saw Jehovah Witnesses getting on at one stop ask a Chinese person if they believed in God and then prayed from the Bible and then get off at the next stop, where another person would get on and do the same thing. Handing out cards to attend their services.

 

This thing goes on in China as well and is one reason I think the Goverment is a little leary as well.

 

Just my opinion.

[Beachey]

Of course if you or your wife are not religious people then this thread means nothing to you but if you are a religious person it would be very important to you.

 

 

 

 

Not true, I am not religious at all but I see Freedom of Religion as just as important as Freedom of Speech, Press. If nothing else, I want the freedom not to be forced to practice a religion

Edited April 26, 2011 by Beachey (see edit history)

[chilton747]

 

 

Perhaps I am coming off as a bible thumper, I am not, but I do feel that a person should have the choice of freedom of religion each in his own way. Again not to make trouble but save his own soul if he believes in that.

 

Larry

 

People can worship in the privacy of their own home under the radar of the government authorities if they want. Religion to some is a personal relationship and a mass of people is not needed to worship. I am sure there are many like this in China.

 

Also I heard at one point that there are more Christians in China than in the USA purely because of the difference in populations of the 2 countries.

[amberjack1234]

 

 

Perhaps I am coming off as a bible thumper, I am not, but I do feel that a person should have the choice of freedom of religion each in his own way. Again not to make trouble but save his own soul if he believes in that.

 

Larry

 

People can worship in the privacy of their own home under the radar of the government authorities if they want. Religion to some is a personal relationship and a mass of people is not needed to worship. I am sure there are many like this in China.

 

Also I heard at one point that there are more Christians in China than in the USA purely because of the difference in populations of the 2 countries.

 

Charles, that is pretty much what the wife did and still does every day when we are in China. Of course I think that in the past 10 years things have changed as others that live there or have recently lived there have stated.

 

She did want to attend an established Church. I can't wait to see it first hand if she is game.

 

Larry

[amberjack1234]

Of course if you or your wife are not religious people then this thread means nothing to you but if you are a religious person it would be very important to you.

 

 

 

 

Not true, I am not religious at all but I see Freedom of Religion as just as important as Freedom of Speech, Press. If nothing else, I want the freedom not to be forced to practice a religion

 

You are to be commended for your insight in my eyes even though you are not a religious person.

 

Larry

 

Larry

[amberjack1234]

IMO it seems the Falong Gong was a protest group that used religion as a cover.I have always felt this is what worries party rulers more than anything.That protests will arise from these religious gatherings.

Besides the people were told openly to not go there and if they did would suffer the consequences of their actions.

Most Chinese I have spoken with that have religious beliefs never seem to have any problems and practice their religion openly.

 

I also think part of the problems arise from people that keep trying to smuggle bibles into the country. I often read people trying to bring in 600 or more bibles into the country when customs rules state you cannot bring in so many, yet when they get caught cry the government is against religion. Yet these same people never admit what they were doing was against the law all the time.

 

Since China is home to many atheists as well people feel a need to convert them. I have a very good Chinese friend in Singapore who always told me she wanted to believe in religion of some sort and attended a couple of church meetings in SG but the group was over fanatical to the point of calling her several times a week to make sure she attended the next weeks ceremony. She became scared of them. Since I was working there I talked with them and told the guy to leave her alone or there would be consequences.

 

Riding the MRT I daily saw Jehovah Witnesses getting on at one stop ask a Chinese person if they believed in God and then prayed from the Bible and then get off at the next stop, where another person would get on and do the same thing. Handing out cards to attend their services.

 

This thing goes on in China as well and is one reason I think the Goverment is a little leary as well.

 

Just my opinion.

 

As I have said, I agree with you about these pushy types of religions and the trouble makers in the name of religion. Some see it their life's destiny to spread the word of God. I simply like to see the individual to be able to worship peacefully alone or in fellowship with others if they wish.

 

Larry

[chilton747]

IMO it seems the Falong Gong was a protest group that used religion as a cover.I have always felt this is what worries party rulers more than anything.That protests will arise from these religious gatherings.

Besides the people were told openly to not go there and if they did would suffer the consequences of their actions.

Most Chinese I have spoken with that have religious beliefs never seem to have any problems and practice their religion openly.

 

I also think part of the problems arise from people that keep trying to smuggle bibles into the country. I often read people trying to bring in 600 or more bibles into the country when customs rules state you cannot bring in so many, yet when they get caught cry the government is against religion. Yet these same people never admit what they were doing was against the law all the time.

 

Since China is home to many atheists as well people feel a need to convert them. I have a very good Chinese friend in Singapore who always told me she wanted to believe in religion of some sort and attended a couple of church meetings in SG but the group was over fanatical to the point of calling her several times a week to make sure she attended the next weeks ceremony. She became scared of them. Since I was working there I talked with them and told the guy to leave her alone or there would be consequences.

 

Riding the MRT I daily saw Jehovah Witnesses getting on at one stop ask a Chinese person if they believed in God and then prayed from the Bible and then get off at the next stop, where another person would get on and do the same thing. Handing out cards to attend their services.

 

This thing goes on in China as well and is one reason I think the Goverment is a little leary as well.

 

Just my opinion.

 

As I have said, I agree with you about these pushy types of religions and the trouble makers in the name of religion. Some see it their life's destiny to spread the word of God. I simply like to see the individual to be able to worship peacefully alone or in fellowship with others if they wish.

 

Larry

 

 

 

Absolutely Larry! Being "pushy" turns people away. The Bible teaches that a Christian should spread the word of God. I take that as informing people that have never heard of God. Those that have heard and choose not to believe is not included in this. To phrase it a different way, lead the horse to the water then the horse chooses to drink or not.

 

Interesting to hear about your wife's religion. Is she Christian?

[david_dawei]

IMO it seems the Falong Gong was a protest group that used religion as a cover.I have always felt this is what worries party rulers more than anything.That protests will arise from these religious gatherings.

Forgive me for not reading everyone's reply in detail as I personally like this kind of thread but know that it is contentious and not really easy to weigh in on.

 

My opinion is very close to this one except I would only modify and remove the word "religious":

"That protests will arise from gatherings."

 

JMO: What China has learned over 5,000 years is that assembly and gathering, regardless if revolt or religion, puts the state at an uneasy feeling.

 

Falun Gong was at first advocated by the government for obvious reasons; and then shut down for obvious reasons. You have to think in their mindset. It shows up again and again in history.

 

JMO # 2: Freedom of anything is total BS. I'll say it again: BS.

 

Every country will dictate the laws of their country as they see fit. I am not going to judge it. If a person wants to knowing violate ANY government... have a good day... in prison. JMO # 3; the average person wants to support the chinese government and has no desire to be in prison; life is short and to be lived; don't mess it up with such trivial $hit...

[Beachey]

Forgive me for not reading everyone's reply in detail as I personally like this kind of thread but know that it is contentious and not really easy to weigh in on.

 

My opinion is very close to this one except I would only modify and remove the word "religious":

"That protests will arise from gatherings."

 

JMO: What China has learned over 5,000 years is that assembly and gathering, regardless if revolt or religion, puts the state at an uneasy feeling.

 

 

 

Off topic but I think relevant. When they have explored where to put nuclear waste, the first thought most people have is to go bury it in the desert somewhere. One problem that arises is the half-life of much of this nuclear waste is 10,000+ years. This is much longer than any know government has existed. One solution proposed is to mark it as a religious site in the hopes that it would not be disturbed. Religions having lasted much longer than known governments.

 

The Chinese government knows that a religious movement is one of the most likely mechanisms in which they could lose power. History supports their uneasy feeling.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Beachey (see edit history)

[TLB]

Very interesting thread. Several things come to mind.

 

1. The Chinese government has recently moved to show more tolerance of, even support for, Chinese Buddhism. The Party fears explosion of Christianity (the same fear accompanied the importation of Western cultural practices like music, that these cultural practices contain subversive elements within them) and distrusts Tibetan Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism does not have a history of subversion or political involvement.

 

2. I remember this "fear of gatherings" back in 1987 when I went to a mass qigong demonstration/tutorial. Qigong was at first embraced as an indigenous cultural practice (this was in the first few heady years after Mao's death) but then clamped down on as potentially subversive. Too many people moving toward doing something together that the Party couldn't necessarily easily control. The Party's relationship with popular music styles (especially rock and roll, punk, etc) follows a similar pattern.

 

3. You can talk about being a Christian in China and minding your own business, but, as has been mentioned, Western Christianity does not have a good track record of minding its own business in new countries; and Jesus himself (despite "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"), it can be argued, did not condone the political/cultural/economic power structure at that time, and did not hesitate to act in ways contrary to it.

 

4. I have found that many Chinese have mastered the art of subtle expression of dissatisfaction with the government. In this way they can feel some freedom, and more than before; so by comparison they are more free; and perhaps that's enough is a country where wondering if you could survive the winter without starving, or where you'd be sent to do hard time as "re-education" is not such a distant memory. It is enough *for now*. It will be interesting to see, if and when most Chinese have a decent quality of life, whether they begin to ask for more freedom. The Party knows that its greatest security comes from full bellies and expanding bank accounts.

[amberjack1234]

Interesting to hear about your wife's religion. Is she Christian?

 

 

No problem Charles. She is a Christian. When my wife was in college she said that one day while in the library she read about this man named Jesus and could not get him off her mind for many days. So she felt a compelling urge that she could not resist to learn more and more about him. When she had exhausted everything that she could find in the library and after she graduated from collage about 6 months later she got a job. Her company was visited by many foreign engineers from many countries, not only from the US. When the opportunity arouse in private she would inquire about this man named Jesus. The more that she found out the more she wanted to know. She eventually acquired a bible from one of them and started reading it on a regular basis. She never had a Chinese teacher or mentor as far as her learning about the bible. She never went to any of these illegal gatherings at other Chinese people's homes but she did gradually find girlfriends of hers that knew Jesus as well. Her mother and father does not believe in religion but highly respect her beliefs.

 

I remember the second time that I ever went to China to see her it was just before my birthday and I wanted to surprise her. She did not know that I was coming I had told her that I had to be out of town for a few days. I checked into the 21 Century Hotel, which is only about 100 yards from where she worked, and went to the lobby and waited for her to get off work and come out. When she came out I followed her out to the bus stop and got very close behind her and tapped her on the butt once with my finger them twice and then she turned around to bless me out and there I stood. The look on her face was priceless. When I tapped her on the butt with my finger some old Chinese lady standing very close by was giving me the mean eye. I thought she was going to sock me one.

 

Back to my original point. We went to my room and the very first thing that she said to me when we got inside was can we get on the foot of the bed and will you pray for us. Certainly we can. One of my promises to her after we decided to get married was would I take her to church whenever she wanted to go once we got to America. So far I have never refused to take her.

 

I have to tell one other thing here. When she turned around at the bus station with the surprised look on her face she said you don't know what you have done. I ask what do you mean? She said that I just bought a airplane ticket today and am suppose to leave tonight to America to see you for your birthday. Good thing that I did not delay in seeing her that afternoon.

 

I have another interesting story to tell about the experience of being invited to church once here in America and then being called back 20 minutes later and told that we would not be welcome as we were a mixed race couple. She was devastated. That's another story though.

 

Larry

Edited April 27, 2011 by dnoblett
Quote tags fixed (see edit history)

[SheLikesME?]

IMO it seems the Falong Gong was a protest group that used religion as a cover.I have always felt this is what worries party rulers more than anything.That protests will arise from these religious gatherings.

Besides the people were told openly to not go there and if they did would suffer the consequences of their actions.

Most Chinese I have spoken with that have religious beliefs never seem to have any problems and practice their religion openly.

 

I also think part of the problems arise from people that keep trying to smuggle bibles into the country. I often read people trying to bring in 600 or more bibles into the country when customs rules state you cannot bring in so many, yet when they get caught cry the government is against religion. Yet these same people never admit what they were doing was against the law all the time.

 

Since China is home to many atheists as well people feel a need to convert them. I have a very good Chinese friend in Singapore who always told me she wanted to believe in religion of some sort and attended a couple of church meetings in SG but the group was over fanatical to the point of calling her several times a week to make sure she attended the next weeks ceremony. She became scared of them. Since I was working there I talked with them and told the guy to leave her alone or there would be consequences.

 

Riding the MRT I daily saw Jehovah Witnesses getting on at one stop ask a Chinese person if they believed in God and then prayed from the Bible and then get off at the next stop, where another person would get on and do the same thing. Handing out cards to attend their services.

 

This thing goes on in China as well and is one reason I think the Goverment is a little leary as well.

 

Just my opinion.

 

As I have said, I agree with you about these pushy types of religions and the trouble makers in the name of religion. Some see it their life's destiny to spread the word of God. I simply like to see the individual to be able to worship peacefully alone or in fellowship with others if they wish.

 

Larry

 

 

 

Absolutely Larry! Being "pushy" turns people away. The Bible teaches that a Christian should spread the word of God. I take that as informing people that have never heard of God. Those that have heard and choose not to believe is not included in this. To phrase it a different way, lead the horse to the water then the horse chooses to drink or not.

 

Interesting to hear about your wife's religion. Is she Christian?

 

And this is why , in general they ought to follow the law of the land. No religion is above the law. Jesus himself waited until he was 30 yrs old, for instance. He even showed higher examples of following the law, of who was in charge. Man has hidden behind religions and twisted truth to what they want - in it's name many times, like your witch hunts Don. And to the pushy people the end justifies the means is obviously not right. But I can't say if it will help or hender in the long run. It is what it is, even though I don't agree with it.

 

You know one can hide a marriage, but it is really a public statement out in the open for all to see - your together. We ought to be able to publicly go to church if wanted, but that isn't the law of the land over there. You have to get permission, and it is possible if you work with the govt. It is their govt, and until the citizens do something about it it will stay that way. I can say from experience that those pushy preachers may get a few to follow, but it upsets even more to do it that way. One person out of a large family can then become a pest and turn everyone off, because they become pushy like the example they saw. My sister-in-law for instance. So generally I don't like seeing people go over to China on a mission to do underground proselyting. I can see humanitarian efforts but follow the law.

 

OK, I'm borderline here. I'll shut up.

[SheLikesME?]

Interesting to hear about your wife's religion. Is she Christian?

 

 

No problem Charles. She is a Christian. When my wife was in college she said that one day while in the library she read about this man named Jesus and could not get him off her mind for many days. So she felt a compelling urge that she could not resist to learn more and more about him. When she had exhausted everything that she could find in the library and after she graduated from collage about 6 months later she got a job. Her company was visited by many foreign engineers from many countries, not only from the US. When the opportunity arouse in private she would inquire about this man named Jesus. The more that she found out the more she wanted to know. She eventually acquired a bible from one of them and started reading it on a regular basis. She never had a Chinese teacher or mentor as far as her learning about the bible. She never went to any of these illegal gatherings at other Chinese people's homes but she did gradually find girlfriends of hers that knew Jesus as well. Her mother and father does not believe in religion but highly respect her beliefs.

 

I remember the second time that I ever went to China to see her it was just before my birthday and I wanted to surprise her. She did not know that I was coming I had told her that I had to be out of town for a few days. I checked into the 21 Century Hotel, which is only about 100 yards from where she worked, and went to the lobby and waited for her to get off work and come out. When she came out I followed her out to the bus stop and got very close behind her and tapped her on the butt once with my finger them twice and then she turned around to bless me out and there I stood. The look on her face was priceless. When I tapped her on the butt with my finger some old Chinese lady standing very close by was giving me the mean eye. I thought she was going to sock me one.

 

Back to my original point. We went to my room and the very first thing that she said to me when we got inside was can we get on the foot of the bed and will you pray for us. Certainly we can. One of my promises to her after we decided to get married was would I take her to church whenever she wanted to go once we got to America. So far I have never refused to take her.

 

I have to tell one other thing here. When she turned around at the bus station with the surprised look on her face she said you don't know what you have done. I ask what do you mean? She said that I just bought a airplane ticket today and am suppose to leave tonight to America to see you for your birthday. Good thing that I did not delay in seeing her that afternoon.

 

I have another interesting story to tell about the experience of being invited to church once here in America and then being called back 20 minutes later and told that we would not be welcome as we were a mixed race couple. She was devastated. That's another story though.

 

Larry

 

Touching story Larry. I didn't know. And to me this is how it is suppose to be for now. China is what it is. She found out anyway, and a good way. It is people like her that make the diference in a country. This kind of thing has happened to others and in other countries it is stories like this that soften the hearts of Govt leaders to allow a church.

 

Sorry for the mix couple experience in America though. We are Souther arn't we Anyway truth is truth regardless of what other do. Even a good person has weaknesses and rides the roller coaster of example. Some years I have been better than the way I have acted the past 5 an dthe way I generally post. Good example from your wife!!!

[david_dawei]

Very interesting thread. Several things come to mind.

 

1. The Chinese government has recently moved to show more tolerance of, even support for, Chinese Buddhism. The Party fears explosion of Christianity (the same fear accompanied the importation of Western cultural practices like music, that these cultural practices contain subversive elements within them) and distrusts Tibetan Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism does not have a history of subversion or political involvement.

 

2. I remember this "fear of gatherings" back in 1987 when I went to a mass qigong demonstration/tutorial. Qigong was at first embraced as an indigenous cultural practice (this was in the first few heady years after Mao's death) but then clamped down on as potentially subversive. Too many people moving toward doing something together that the Party couldn't necessarily easily control. The Party's relationship with popular music styles (especially rock and roll, punk, etc) follows a similar pattern.

 

3. You can talk about being a Christian in China and minding your own business, but, as has been mentioned, Western Christianity does not have a good track record of minding its own business in new countries; and Jesus himself (despite "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"), it can be argued, did not condone the political/cultural/economic power structure at that time, and did not hesitate to act in ways contrary to it.

 

4. I have found that many Chinese have mastered the art of subtle expression of dissatisfaction with the government. In this way they can feel some freedom, and more than before; so by comparison they are more free; and perhaps that's enough is a country where wondering if you could survive the winter without starving, or where you'd be sent to do hard time as "re-education" is not such a distant memory. It is enough *for now*. It will be interesting to see, if and when most Chinese have a decent quality of life, whether they begin to ask for more freedom. The Party knows that its greatest security comes from full bellies and expanding bank accounts.

Some good points, particularly about Chinese Buddhism. That is essentially alive and well and is an important and peaceful role.

 

I think that the party has also pulled off something that most do not really consider so much, since they think the opposite exist; Trust in authority. There is such a long history developing this idea that I think this is ultimately what they know much exist to ensure even their own survival.