Freedom of religion in China

[amberjack1234]

I know that this won't get much response at least as much as it did in times past. I remember the last time that I posted about this issue the majority of the members said that freedom of religion was alive and well in China. Even some of my friends said that it was so. So I had no choice to believe it and I have not been back to China since so I can't confirm that freedom of religion is tolerated in China especially Beijing.

 

Here is an article about a recent religious service being canceled so it makes me wonder if there are more.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/24/china.easter.crackdown/index.html?hpt=T2

 

Larry

[Beachey]

I read "The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers", the author argues that the Party's problem is not so much with religion but with assemblies of Chinese outside the party's control. That is why state-sponsored religion is OK but independent religious groups are not. You also see this in the Chinese government's issues with the Vatican over the appointment of bishops. The Party wants to appoint the bishops (who presumably are party members).

 

As foreigners, we have been told that religious services that contain only foreigners are outside of the government's concern. Where you will run into issues with the authorities is services with a mixture of Chinese and foreigners. Also why you won't see joint Chinese/English services in China.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Beachey (see edit history)

[Mick]

Sorry to see that sort of thing still happening over there. During the years I lived in China I found that religious "freedom" existed, but not in the sense that we understand that term. When I first arrived in China, the parks were full of Fa Lun Gong practitioners. Then, in the spring or summer of '99 it was outlawed and they disappeared from the parks overnight. House churches were raided on a fairly regular basis and leaders often arrested. My wife attended a house church for many years before we met. In fact, she was baptized in a bath tub in a local house church. The "official" church, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement enjoys a bit more freedom but according to one of my good friends who is a pastor of a Three-Self church, he is somewhat limited in terms of what he can preach about. Easter and the resurrection of Christ is considered "silly superstition" and is even absent from some of the Bibles printed in China (not all of them).

 

I recall a large stadium event back at Christmas time in 1999. The event was allowed but those who attended had to sing a long round of patriotic Commie songs before the ceremony could begin. I also would add that things seemed a bit more open in Guangdong, where I lived for four years than it was in Anhui, where I lived my first year in China.

 

I remain in close contact with many of my Chinese Christian friends, but any first hand info I have is a bit dated, as we returned to the States in 2003. I think China is certainly more open than it once was, but has a long way to go as far as freedom of religion goes. Also, perhaps it is not reasonable for us to expect their culture to conform to our standards of freedom, largely because their history is much different than ours.

[amberjack1234]

I hear you guys and agree. It is, I think, more to do with what is going on in the middle east rather than religion. It is still a shame that this kind of thing is still going on. I would have liked to see them all be able to attend their church of choice and perhaps party members or police could attend as well and if anything political broke out they could step in and stop the service, otherwise stay out of the service.. Just a thought. This was the service could go on however some of the police or party members might get saved and convert. Fat chance huh?

 

Larry

[amberjack1234]

Don't hold your breath waiting for "In God We Trust" to appear under Chairman Mao's picture on the yuan.

 

Now that was funny Don.

 

Larry

[Beachey]

I would have liked to see them all be able to attend their church of choice and perhaps party members or police could attend as well and if anything political broke out they could step in and stop the service, otherwise stay out of the service..

 

I think with the Chinese concept of "Face', if they were forced to do that, the damage would already have been done.

[warpedbored]

In Mao We Trust would be OK though. My guess is in light of recent turmoil in the middle east the Chinese govt is probably nervous about large gatherings for religious reasons. I remember when we went to the consulate in San Francisco there were several Falong Gong people outside protesting. My wife thought they were whack jobs. I have yet to meet any Chinese people who complain about any lack of religious freedom. I don't think it's a matter of concern for the population at large. The US government is often complaining about human rights abuses and uses examples such as this as evidence. Personally I think we should mind our own business and take care of our own problems at home.

[Beachey]

I remember when we went to the consulate in San Francisco there were several Falong Gong people outside protesting. My wife thought they were whack jobs. I have yet to meet any Chinese people who complain about any lack of religious freedom.

 

When we went to Hong Kong and saw Falong Gong protestors, my wife said they should not be allowed to do that. It is interesting to me that a freedom we hold dear as Americans, is so contrary to the average Chinese thought process.

[SheLikesME?]

When they rise up for this freedom then they are ready for it. Just my opinion.

 

I know folks, not in my church, who still go over to proselyte illegally, when it can be accomplished legally, although it is a long painful process, worse then our visas.

[Beachey]

When they rise up for this freedom then they are ready for it. Just my opinion.

 

 

 

I agree, it can be dangerous to make generalizations but I think the average Chinese is more worried about economic opportunities/freedom than religious freedom.

[Kyle]

The three-self church is in place to monitor the Christian movement in China. It's not there to facilitate or encourage growth. Yes, the Chinese constitution states that there is freedom of religion, however, it is just an empty statement. "Yes, you can go to our State run church where we will teach you what we want you to know and nothing more." How is the freedom of religion an actual freedom if the means to learn about God/Christianity/Hinduism/etc (insert "your faith" here) are withheld from the masses?

[chilton747]

Back in 2005 I went to a church in Jiujiang, Jiangxi province. It was a big, new church building. Wife told me that the construction was overseen by an American company. Anyway, in the service I noticed there were people from India there as well as another country perhaps somewhere in Europe. There were a lot of people there, perhaps 400-500.

 

The service was in Chinese so I had no idea what was being said. I would think that this had to be a state sanctioned church since it was out in the open for all to see?

Edited April 25, 2011 by chilton747 (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

So with the statements here and in the article of several Churches with 400-500 members it seems that worship services are allowed but monitored or has a party member overseeing the sermons in some way or another.

 

I remember seeing one of the oldest christian churches in China that happen to be in Beijing on Sunday morning the streets were filled with people but there was not a single person within 200 feet of the the church. I wanted to go in but the wife was reluctant as she had been turned away once before she met me and was told told not to come back as a Chinese citizen by an plain clothes policeman. At the time of our visit she was a naturalized American Citizen but she was still reluctant so I didn't push her.

 

So it seems to me that the whole thing is allowed but highly regulated or watched. I am sure the problem now is the assembly of what "they" would view as subversive types assembling in the face of current events in the middle east thereby constituting some kind of a threat possibility. No matter how you slice it, it's a shame that citizens movements are curtailed in this way.

 

Carl says that he has never met any Chinese that have complained about any lack of religious freedom. I believe that but it does not mean that there are not some that do complain and have had their religious freedom infringed upon. My wife was one of them and she has friends that had the same experience so I guess that it is just the circle of people that you have around you. With 1.3 billion people in China and such a small amount of christian people there, don't have any statics, it would be natural not to be able to find one on every corner especially one that would talk about it openly.

 

It still does not diminish the fact that everyone should have the freedom of religion as long as they don't cause trouble. I don't believe in religion being used as a subversive force against the government or any other group. I am just talking about the plain ole fact of being able to worship peacefully by yourself or with others.

 

Of course if you or your wife are not religious people then this thread means nothing to you but if you are a religious person it would be very important to you.

 

Kind of like the freedom to smoke anywhere you want to isn't is? Albeit a smaller infraction of ones rights.

 

I know what they are afraid of. They are afraid that religion will catch on and become widespread and well organized. Perhaps become to large for the government to control and they will rebel and take the country over as has happened in the past centuries with many other governments.

 

Larry

[amberjack1234]

 

I know what they are afraid of. They are afraid that religion will catch on and become widespread and well organized. Perhaps become to large for the government to control and they will rebel and take the country over as has happened in the past centuries with many other governments.

 

Larry

 

 

I dunno, Larry. Seems the Aztec's had more to fear than converted Aztecs overthrowing the government. Organized western religions have a less than sterling reputation when they move into a new country. I seem to remember Japan having a problem, too. Maybe the party has read a few history books and formed an educated opinion?

 

I am sure that your are right Don. There are religious groups that seem to form to start trouble. This kind of thing is what gives religious worship a black eye. I think that you know what I am talking about. People worshiping in a peaceful manner in order to live a better life and spiritual afterlife of some sort not for making trouble or get involved with overthrowing the government or forcing their beliefs on someone else. I know religious friends of mine that have tried to force their religious beliefs on me or you if given the chance. I don't like these kind of religions or members. Live and let live.

 

Perhaps I am coming off as a bible thumper, I am not, but I do feel that a person should have the choice of freedom of religion each in his own way. Again not to make trouble but save his own soul if he believes in that.

 

Larry

[SheLikesME?]

Some people want the change in everything, and maybe others fought. I don't know how much FORCE was used in South America, but many Mexicans, I don't think, like to admit they are Native Americans instead of Spanish, & etc. Their culture, language, and religions were completely destroyed and replaced by what Padres said. Was that a good thing in the long run?

 

It is hard to seperate what the USA did on this subject from World History. Certainly we wanted seperation from state mandated religion. Even Kennedy and Romney had to make statments when running for Pres. The problem with China is they are doing a form of what Europe did by appointing the church leaders, or approving them. But at least they, China, are not acting like many Kings in the Dark Ages did by trying to conquere the world in the name of God or a specific religion. I find that to be like hiding behind a womans skirt. We need to not associate our religions here in America with what was done during that time in world history, in most cases.

 

We do have folks who disregard the Chinese laws and govt and go and preach underground in defiance. Does it help things or delay a higher approach of gaining TRUST so a church can be approved and open on it's own merits without govt control? Not every church in China is controlled. Some have gained trust in these recent years.