Obama in China.

[Daviation]

I swore I wasn't going to read anything even remotely political here again. But to anyone with experience in Japan, there is an aspect of this whole bowing thing that I've not seen addressed anywhere, here or in media outlets. I was hoping to have found it here.

 

In Japan, bowing is a VERY precise and practiced art. There are a multitude of rules involved... affected by things like, age, social status, political status, familiarity, family status, gender. The Japanese practice it for a lifetime, from a very young age. It is a two way act, and how it it is performed is based on the relative status of each participant. In the end both parties bow, but in a subtle and slightly different way.

 

Any thoughtful foreigner (gaijin) seeking cultural advice before traveling to Japan learns that it is best not to even try bowing - because gaijin simply don't understand the subtle nature and will make themselves look like a fool for doing it all wrong. The Japanese don't expect bowing from gaijin, and usually have LESS respect for those silly enough to try.

 

It is quite telling (at least form the pics I've seen) to see that Japan's emperor didn't even try to bow back. He just stands there looking at the act, and you can almost see the amusement on his face... and I doesn't appear to be a look of respectful amusement.

[NewDay2006]

As the leader of the only super power in the world he should be bowing to no one.

 

This is the second time he has done this.

 

Ah, this reminds me of the chest-thumping bravado of the Bush administration. That worked well didnt it?

Agreed, not sure if anyone noticed or not... the status quo is no longer valid.

 

My opinion is that being the Guy with the Big gun without manners is not working when we think of how many in the world view us as being bullies or just trying to be the police of the world.

 

I'm not saying that we need to give up our postion of strenght, but everyone has thier own style and there are different way to do things.

 

I think the world knows we have big guns and we are not afraid to use them. But look at us and our economy, we are using the big guns and we are spending over a billion dollars a month and losing young men and women to peope who hate us and we are mostly standing alone.

 

It is one thing to cut off your nose to spite your face, but what about my face and your face and the millions of faces in this country.

 

I for one am tired of the fighting and wars and suicide bombings and hearing people saying we are not so powerful anymore and that we have many here in this country that depise us... maybe that fool in Fort Hood was an isolated case, maybe it wasn't.... but everyone must agree, this is a different world from when we were younger. What kind of world do we want to leave to our Kids and Grand kids?

 

Something needs to change!! I don't know what it is as I'm not that smart, but something needs to change.

Edited November 17, 2009 by NewDay2006 (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

I swore I wasn't going to read anything even remotely political here again. But to anyone with experience in Japan, there is an aspect of this whole bowing thing that I've not seen addressed anywhere, here or in media outlets. I was hoping to have found it here.

 

In Japan, bowing is a VERY precise and practiced art. There are a multitude of rules involved... affected by things like, age, social status, political status, familiarity, family status, gender. The Japanese practice it for a lifetime, from a very young age. It is a two way act, and how it it is performed is based on the relative status of each participant. In the end both parties bow, but in a subtle and slightly different way.

 

Any thoughtful foreigner (gaijin) seeking cultural advice before traveling to Japan learns that it is best not to even try bowing - because gaijin simply don't understand the subtle nature and will make themselves look like a fool for doing it all wrong. The Japanese don't expect bowing from gaijin, and usually have LESS respect for those silly enough to try.

 

It is quite telling (at least form the pics I've seen) to see that Japan's emperor didn't even try to bow back. He just stands there looking at the act, and you can almost see the amusement on his face... and I doesn't appear to be a look of respectful amusement.

I disagree with this statement. Japanese do not look down on gaijin who bow. Quite the opposite is my experience. Generally they are pleased that a gaijin is polite enough to try. They don't expect us to do it perfectly.

[knloregon]

AS the OP,

 

I'd advise everyone to look at the title. And go back to the op----I suggested the bowing as one ---small--- issue of a greater trip, and as a precursor for Obama's China visit.

 

Also, I didn't want this to become political. I was trying to give a historic-----not overtly political perspective for why American presidents don't bow -----specifically to royalty.

 

I didn't do a very good job, so let my summarize the history: I'm going to paraphrase, since haven't been able to track down the exact quote, but after the British were defeated, a patriot said, and it was widely circulated: "Americans pay no allegiance, nor give special consideration to any Earth-Bound-King."

 

I believe, it was from that sentiment, and the ensuing discussion in the Continental Congress that the protocol was established that the president, and indeed, I believe it included diplomats carrying portfolio didn't bow, particularly to the King of England, but I believe it included all European Royalty. And as I recall, Ben Franklin was notoriously casual with the French royals.

 

But there is another important aspect: The concept of not honoring royalty goes directly to our policy of the strict separation of church and state. Remember, ALL royalty in Europe at the time, believed they ruled by Divine Right-----just like the Emperor of Japan.

 

Specifically not bowing to royalty was then uniquely American ----- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, (and equally, not just reserved for the monarch) ---THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS...

 

So to me, the President (no matter who he is) should show respect to any head of state, and indeed, royalty, but I think its also appropriate that all other nations study OUR customs as well----and understand that when we threw off the British yoke, we specifically stopped bowing to those who believe they rule by divine right.

 

---thats it! Thats all I'll say on the subject of the bow---------and hope we can all move on to other aspects of Obama's China trip-----for instance, Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

[Yuanyang]

I don't like it from the point of democratic ideals ... but it is apparently official protocol and was given by Presidents before Obama. I mean guys the Queen of England gets one as well.

[Guest Pommey]

Just my very humble and uneducated opinion, but if your in their country follow their customs, when they are here they can follow ours.

 

BTW no head of state is expected to bow to the Queen/King of Britain, never has, and that's UK protocol, in the Japans bowing is a completely different thing.

[weiaijiayou]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

This would be fantastic. At Chinese universities there are people from Korea, Japan, England, Indonesia, African countries... but there are hardly any Americans. Perhaps China could help out by lowering or subsidizing tuition, which is a lot higher for foreign students than for Chinese...

[Guest Pommey]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

This would be fantastic. At Chinese universities there are people from Korea, Japan, England, Indonesia, African countries... but there are hardly any Americans. Perhaps China could help out by lowering or subsidizing tuition, which is a lot higher for foreign students than for Chinese...

 

 

has to be a 2 way street

[Smitty]

One day I was, as usual, minding my own business, and a black guy accuses me of slavery. Starts yelling at me. I guess all white people are guilty for slavery, and can never be forgiven. Even if they were born well after it happened.

Even if their ancestors came to the US after slavery was ended. Even if your ancestors came to the US after slavery was ended. Even if half or more than half of his ancestors were slavers.

 

It's all about identity politics.

 

Some people live to harbor grievances. Thank God we have people of all races who actually seek Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream: to be judged by character, not color of skin.

Exactly! Some people love to hold grudges against whole countries that mostly don't have anything to do with what wronged their country.

 

Wait - Is it ok if I hate Audi drivers?

[knloregon]

Meanwhile ---- Analysis from the AP: "Obama's China trip shows power shifting"

 

"President Obama's first visit to China underscored a shifting balance of power: two giants moving closer to being equals.."

 

(China) "... with $800 billion of federal US debt that gives it extraordinary power in the relationship. Its military buildup is rubbing up against America's influence in Asia. And Beijing feels the global recession, sparked by US financial industry excesses, vindicates its authoritarian leadership."

 

"Gone are the days when a US president could come to China expecting the release of a dissident or a trade concession as an atmospheric sweetener. For Obama, he not only didn't get that, but not one notable shift by the Chinese toward US positions in key areas such as climate, nuclear challenges in Iran and North Korea, human rights or monetary policy."

[b.c]

Meanwhile ---- Analysis from the AP: "Obama's China trip shows power shifting"

 

"President Obama's first visit to China underscored a shifting balance of power: two giants moving closer to being equals.."

 

(China) "... with $800 billion of federal US debt that gives it extraordinary power in the relationship. Its military buildup is rubbing up against America's influence in Asia. And Beijing feels the global recession, sparked by US financial industry excesses, vindicates its authoritarian leadership."

 

"Gone are the days when a US president could come to China expecting the release of a dissident or a trade concession as an atmospheric sweetener. For Obama, he not only didn't get that, but not one notable shift by the Chinese toward US positions in key areas such as climate, nuclear challenges in Iran and North Korea, human rights or monetary policy."

 

Obama's own quote regarding this:

 

It's pretty hard to tell your banker that he is wrong.

 

Thats a heavy dose of reality.

[weiaijiayou]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

This would be fantastic. At Chinese universities there are people from Korea, Japan, England, Indonesia, African countries... but there are hardly any Americans. Perhaps China could help out by lowering or subsidizing tuition, which is a lot higher for foreign students than for Chinese...

 

 

has to be a 2 way street

Very true, but our universities already have tons of Chinese, and for good reason: the quality of the education and value of the degrees are generally higher in the US.

[lostinblue]

Obama has promised to increase the number of US students in China to 100,000 ----that to me is significant, and long overdue.

This would be fantastic. At Chinese universities there are people from Korea, Japan, England, Indonesia, African countries... but there are hardly any Americans. Perhaps China could help out by lowering or subsidizing tuition, which is a lot higher for foreign students than for Chinese...

 

 

has to be a 2 way street

Very true, but our universities already have tons of Chinese, and for good reason: the quality of the education and value of the degrees are generally higher in the US.

Much of this I would think has to do with the percentage of chinese students who are fluent in english vs american students who are fluent in chinese.

[knloregon]

"..Much of this I would think has to do with the percentage of chinese students who are fluent in english vs american students who are fluent in chinese...."

 

Good point LIB, but it goes further than the fact that 50 MILLION Chinese children (last stat I saw about 3 years ago) are learning English in PUBLIC schools ----- it has more to do with the 'wake-up-call' that has not yet occurred in the US--- that if we are going to compete head to head, with China, our next generation needs to take the challenge seriously.

 

Again from the AP story I quoted earlier: "Many Americans still think of the US as an unassailable superpower and don't want presidents who make them think otherwise. (reference to Obama's bow) Problems in this area could make it more difficult to forge ahead with already diverse health care reforms, make bold choices on a new strategy for the drawn-out war in Afghanistan, or get re-elected."

[A Mafan]

"..Much of this I would think has to do with the percentage of chinese students who are fluent in english vs american students who are fluent in chinese...."

 

Good point LIB, but it goes further than the fact that 50 MILLION Chinese children (last stat I saw about 3 years ago) are learning English in PUBLIC schools ----- it has more to do with the 'wake-up-call' that has not yet occurred in the US--- that if we are going to compete head to head, with China, our next generation needs to take the challenge seriously.

 

Again from the AP story I quoted earlier: "Many Americans still think of the US as an unassailable superpower and don't want presidents who make them think otherwise. (reference to Obama's bow) Problems in this area could make it more difficult to forge ahead with already diverse health care reforms, make bold choices on a new strategy for the drawn-out war in Afghanistan, or get re-elected."

China's education superiority might also have to do with schools being more concerned with education than teacher benefits, combined with intense parental concern/interest in education.

 

But in China, getting a degree is often just considered "checking a box". If you pass the test to get into college, you are already the best of the best, and many graduates never work a day in the field they get their degree in.

 

I think that's why Chinese universities don't compare well with US universities.

 

But that's just what I understand, I could be wrong.