"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

And 'um why would it be then that so many Chinese would love to come to America and try desparately to get here any way they can???

 

The US still has the best Universities in the World. It's a good place to learn so they can come back to China and work at a business that will have third-world Americans make clothing and other consumables so they can live a better life.

 

Edited January 13, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[rogerluli]

 

And 'um why would it be then that so many Chinese would love to come to America and try desparately to get here any way they can???

 

The US still has the best Universities in the World. It's a good place to learn so they can come back to China and work at a business that will have third-world Americans make clothing and other consumables so they can live a better life.

 

[GZBILL]

Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes

"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...,

Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law.

 

This is so completely laughable, that posting any commentary to the contrary will be met with someone carrying a shovel-full of US foreign policy ready to force-feed to the unwilling.

 

When you write about the rule of law, are you suggesting the US has a rule of law that would be applied in China? Get real. Firstly, it will never happen, and the reason is the current rule of US law is flawed and filled with all manner of intellectual corruption.

 

Due process of law? From the country that states: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

 

Take a look around at the countless thousands of Americans that believed because they had a court-appointed attorney, that they would be rescued from the angry jaws of the DA offices, that filled with teams of intellectuals, all hell-bent on getting the maximum sentence applied. Then, think about the countless people that have been freed from an otherwise open-and-shut case simply because they had a fist-full of dollars.

 

Additionally, the heads of state are given certain powers to forgive the crimes committed by their friends and friends of friends by granting pardons?

 

I've looked at this thread and many others like it, and there are a few out there that simply want to CHANGE China to something that more resembles Western thinking, methods, philosophies, and ideologies.

 

In my view, this thread has remained on topic, it's just that these sorts of topics carry a banner that the people of China see right through. You assume that the people of China are somehow forced to live under a domineering regime that prevents them from living a better life; a life like Americans.

 

And 'um why would it be then that so many Chinese would love to come to America and try desparately to get here any way they can???

 

1. Money;

2. Ability to have more than 1 child.

 

Very, very few people will say their reason is to embrace democracy and the American way of life although many here would like to pretend that is the reason they come here.

[rogerluli]

Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes

"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...,

Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law.

 

This is so completely laughable, that posting any commentary to the contrary will be met with someone carrying a shovel-full of US foreign policy ready to force-feed to the unwilling.

 

When you write about the rule of law, are you suggesting the US has a rule of law that would be applied in China? Get real. Firstly, it will never happen, and the reason is the current rule of US law is flawed and filled with all manner of intellectual corruption.

 

Due process of law? From the country that states: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

 

Take a look around at the countless thousands of Americans that believed because they had a court-appointed attorney, that they would be rescued from the angry jaws of the DA offices, that filled with teams of intellectuals, all hell-bent on getting the maximum sentence applied. Then, think about the countless people that have been freed from an otherwise open-and-shut case simply because they had a fist-full of dollars.

 

Additionally, the heads of state are given certain powers to forgive the crimes committed by their friends and friends of friends by granting pardons?

 

I've looked at this thread and many others like it, and there are a few out there that simply want to CHANGE China to something that more resembles Western thinking, methods, philosophies, and ideologies.

 

In my view, this thread has remained on topic, it's just that these sorts of topics carry a banner that the people of China see right through. You assume that the people of China are somehow forced to live under a domineering regime that prevents them from living a better life; a life like Americans.

 

And 'um why would it be then that so many Chinese would love to come to America and try desparately to get here any way they can???

 

1. Money;

2. Ability to have more than 1 child.

 

Very, very few people will say their reason is to embrace democracy and the American way of life although many here would like to pretend that is the reason they come here.

 

Let's everybody take a chill pill... It isn't necessary to ASSASSINATE the people on the other side of the arguement...Let's play nice and we can all make our points and try to understand people who actually think differently than we do...

[rogerluli]

Let me give some personal stories of Chinese people I know here in America and one in China who wants to come to America...

 

We have a Chinese family here in our little burg in Wisconsin that are our friends... Their primary reason for coming here was religious freedom...They are very strong Christians and tell us they were constrained in practicing their beliefs in China... And yes they also have 3 children with the last 2 born here and so USCs...The man, who was a doctor in China and teaches at a local college, says that he really hated the high level of distrust that exists in the smallest transaction between people in China...At the market the buyer and seller both start out with the supposition that the other is trying to cheat them somehow... They find Americans very friendly, open and trusting compared to the people they left behind in China...They often comment on how their neighbors here will do things for them just for the sake of being good neighbors that simply would not happen in China...

 

Our Chinese friend in China is a man of about 40 who is a cadre in GZ...He has an enviable position here...His family is one of the oldest and most prominent in GZ and perhaps you have toured the ____ Family Museum there...He is a manager in some government entity...he seems to work when he wishes, drives company vehicles wherever he likes, and has toured all over the world in his priveleged position...He has given us pics of himself to try to find him an Ameruican woman interested in him because he is very health conscious, practices yoga, and thinks that living in GZ is actually harmful to one's health with the air pollution and who knows what getting put into the food you are eating...

 

We also have a whole raft of friends who work at Chinese restaurants here who are illegals... and they are certainly here for the money...

[eseum]

One of the flaws in the arguments here is to talk about rule of law. Every country on earth, that I am aware of, has a rule of law. Their rule of law may differ from ours, or the country next door. But every dictatorship, democracy, etc. has laws for its citizens to follow. How just any law is can be debated ad infinitum.

 

Secondly, to say that because there is looting after a natural disaster, there is no rule of law, is inane. Those who may be in jail because they were caught looting would beg to differ. There may be a breakdown in society for short periods of time but law will almost always win out. It does not just happen in America.

 

Thirdly, are there flaws in the laws in America? In most peoples opinions yes. But there can be a number of differences from person to person as to what those flaws are. One thing about the system though is that there are a number of opportunities to make appeals to right a wrong. Does it work 100% of the time? No, but name one country where it does.

 

America allows citizens to mount protests in mass. One person here believes that this is extreme. However, I think most people who were around when the civil rights protests were going on would disagree. When protests become violent then they have probably gone to far. But to just disrupt traffic or inconvenience people is a small price to get society to change the way it thinks.

 

I work for the Federal government and am sworn to uphold it. That does not mean that I have to agree with everything it does. I have no problem pointing out when it fails to hold up its end of the bargain it has with the American people (read the constitution and bill of rights). It is a guaranteed right that we should all exercise when possible.

 

There were a number of things done wrong after Katrina. But I know for a fact that there was a large response by low level government employees to go to the are to help.

 

Jin stated in an early post that she had seen racism in America. Yep, it exists. The Chinese were not treated very well in the past. We have a history of racism against people of differing colors. We also have a history of treating people of various nationalities, who are the same color, poorly. For the most part though we have come a long way. I am white/native american married to a Chinese lady. We will soon have a mixed race president freely elected by the people. Is this a great country or what?

 

Every country has its racists, that includes China. There were a couple of times that my wife and I were subjected to derogatory comments in Chongqing and Beijing. They were not happy that a Chinese woman was with a white man. Their problem. Not ours!

 

China has come a long way from Mao. It will probably continue to make progress. What type of government that may result in is anyones guess. As long it is one chosen by the Chinese people is all that is important.

[Batmaniac]

. . . he really hated the high level of distrust that exists in the smallest transaction between people in China...At the market the buyer and seller both start out with the supposition that the other is trying to cheat them somehow... They find Americans very friendly, open and trusting compared to the people they left behind in China...They often comment on how their neighbors here will do things for them just for the sake of being good neighbors that simply would not happen in China...

 

I have been trying the stress that upon Ying. I am constantly amazed at times there are innocent (in my eyes) mistakes on a bill (like charging 1 RMB for napkins not received) and she will fly into a rage accusing the waiter of cheating us. God I hope she is nice to the servers in US restaurants.

 

One day I was at the HK border catching the train. A Chinese girl and her family were trying to put RMB into the ticket machine. They didn't understand you needed ONLY HK Dollars. They had already put some in so I gave her the last $20 HK she needed to get them moving. They really seemed to have no clue, although the girl spoke English. Anyway I was happy to do it. The girl wanted my number so she could give it back later, and I'm just like don't worry about it. Help someone else sometime.

 

I told Ying this story and talk about a mop slap. Oh my . . . I got a stern lecture. She doesn't know about the African I helped the other day at the Guangzhou Starbucks who was short 5 RMB because he only had HKD . . .

[GZBILL]

She doesn't know about the African I helped the other day at the Guangzhou Starbucks who was short 5 RMB because he only had HKD . . .

 

I know that guy!

 

Isn't he the one that is looking for an investor to help him smuggle $8.43 billion out of Nigeria so he can help orphans in China?

[IllinoisDave]

One of the flaws in the arguments here is to talk about rule of law. Every country on earth, that I am aware of, has a rule of law. Their rule of law may differ from ours, or the country next door. But every dictatorship, democracy, etc. has laws for its citizens to follow. How just any law is can be debated ad infinitum.

 

Secondly, to say that because there is looting after a natural disaster, there is no rule of law, is inane. Those who may be in jail because they were caught looting would beg to differ. There may be a breakdown in society for short periods of time but law will almost always win out. It does not just happen in America.

 

Thirdly, are there flaws in the laws in America? In most peoples opinions yes. But there can be a number of differences from person to person as to what those flaws are. One thing about the system though is that there are a number of opportunities to make appeals to right a wrong. Does it work 100% of the time? No, but name one country where it does.

 

America allows citizens to mount protests in mass. One person here believes that this is extreme. However, I think most people who were around when the civil rights protests were going on would disagree. When protests become violent then they have probably gone to far. But to just disrupt traffic or inconvenience people is a small price to get society to change the way it thinks.

 

I work for the Federal government and am sworn to uphold it. That does not mean that I have to agree with everything it does. I have no problem pointing out when it fails to hold up its end of the bargain it has with the American people (read the constitution and bill of rights). It is a guaranteed right that we should all exercise when possible.

 

There were a number of things done wrong after Katrina. But I know for a fact that there was a large response by low level government employees to go to the are to help.

 

Jin stated in an early post that she had seen racism in America. Yep, it exists. The Chinese were not treated very well in the past. We have a history of racism against people of differing colors. We also have a history of treating people of various nationalities, who are the same color, poorly. For the most part though we have come a long way. I am white/native american married to a Chinese lady. We will soon have a mixed race president freely elected by the people. Is this a great country or what?

 

Every country has its racists, that includes China. There were a couple of times that my wife and I were subjected to derogatory comments in Chongqing and Beijing. They were not happy that a Chinese woman was with a white man. Their problem. Not ours!

 

China has come a long way from Mao. It will probably continue to make progress. What type of government that may result in is anyones guess. As long it is one chosen by the Chinese people is all that is important.

Well said.

[GZBILL]

She doesn't know about the African I helped the other day at the Guangzhou Starbucks who was short 5 RMB because he only had HKD . . .

 

I know that guy!

 

Isn't he the one that is looking for an investor to help him smuggle $8.43 billion out of Nigeria so he can help orphans in China?

 

CRAP! it was such an attractive return too!

 

Well, don't worry. I just feel glad that he has been able to recover 5 RMB of the 300 RMB I screwed him out of.

[Jeikun]

One of the flaws in the arguments here is to talk about rule of law. Every country on earth, that I am aware of, has a rule of law. Their rule of law may differ from ours, or the country next door. But every dictatorship, democracy, etc. has laws for its citizens to follow. How just any law is can be debated ad infinitum.

 

 

 

Most of your post was quite good, actually... but I wanted to point out for anyone confused what rule of law means.

 

Rule of law doesn't simply mean having laws. Rule of law means the law is the ultimate rule... not the government or ruler. If a country has laws, but the rulers are above them, then that country does not have rule of law. So by very definition, a dictatorship (for example) cannot have rule of law because the dictator is the ultimate power.

 

The 'rule of law', in its most basic form, is the principle that no one is above the law. Thomas Paine stated in his pamphlet Common Sense (1776): "For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."

Edited January 13, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

One of the flaws in the arguments here is to talk about rule of law. Every country on earth, that I am aware of, has a rule of law. Their rule of law may differ from ours, or the country next door. But every dictatorship, democracy, etc. has laws for its citizens to follow. How just any law is can be debated ad infinitum.

 

 

 

Most of your post was quite good, actually... but I wanted to point out for anyone confused what rule of law means.

 

Rule of law doesn't simply mean having laws. Rule of law means the law is the ultimate rule... not the government or ruler. If a country has laws, but the rulers are above them, then that country does not have rule of law. So by very definition, a dictatorship (for example) cannot have rule of law because the dictator is the ultimate power.

 

The 'rule of law', in its most basic form, is the principle that no one is above the law. Thomas Paine stated in his pamphlet Common Sense (1776): "For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."

 

It sounds good in theory, but remember what happened in Rome? It just doesn't work over time. Even Thomas Jefferson knew that.

 

 

¡°A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.¡±

 

Corruption always finds it's way in. Try reading Plato....

Edited January 13, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[C4Racer]

One of the flaws in the arguments here is to talk about rule of law. Every country on earth, that I am aware of, has a rule of law. Their rule of law may differ from ours, or the country next door. But every dictatorship, democracy, etc. has laws for its citizens to follow. How just any law is can be debated ad infinitum.

 

 

 

Most of your post was quite good, actually... but I wanted to point out for anyone confused what rule of law means.

 

Rule of law doesn't simply mean having laws. Rule of law means the law is the ultimate rule... not the government or ruler. If a country has laws, but the rulers are above them, then that country does not have rule of law. So by very definition, a dictatorship (for example) cannot have rule of law because the dictator is the ultimate power.

 

The 'rule of law', in its most basic form, is the principle that no one is above the law. Thomas Paine stated in his pamphlet Common Sense (1776): "For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."

 

It sounds good in theory, but remember what happened in Rome? It just doesn't work over time. Even Thomas Jefferson knew that.

 

 

¡°A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.¡±

 

Corruption always finds it's way in. Try reading Plato....

 

You don't even need 51%. You can change many things with only the majority of voters that turn out, so the true percent needed for mob rule is much lower.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

You don't even need 51%. You can change many things with only the majority of voters that turn out, so the true percent needed for mob rule is much lower.

 

The question is just who is "You?"

 

The framers of the US constitution were all well-read educated intellectuals, who spent a good deal of time reading the philosophers of old. Plato, Socrates, and the like. All of these philosophies shared a common theme in that the intellectuals would be in authority, and protect and take care of the poor who would perform services for them. The poor and uneducated were never meant to have a voice, because they were / are considered unable to understand and contribute to complicated things.

 

The trouble is, history shows that the people who have been having their "god-given" rights suppressed will eventually rise up and take holy grail away from the intellectual leaders.

 

The Rule of Law as the founding fathers intended it, is no longer practiced in the US.

[Dennis143]

If a country has laws, but the rulers are above them, then that country does not have rule of law. So by very definition, a dictatorship (for example) cannot have rule of law because the dictator is the ultimate power.

hmmm, interesting that there is current debate in our country on whether Chaney and Bush should be prosecuted for war crimes...

 

So, if they are not tried then we are a country without rule of law? Or, who should say whether there was a crime committed or not and if cause of action should proceed? Personally, I am not an advocate either way... None the less, the debate continues.

 

Many questions here...what IS the law and was it broken and if those who initiated it should be tried.

 

Not meaning to turn this political, but Jason's point strikes to the core of current events in our own country.

 

I know this will get deleted. But, if we're going to discuss this topic, it should be fully examined or not.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Dennis143 (see edit history)