Guest jin979 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions. Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out. If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs. China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic. This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment... Roger. i think some times you just like to cause troubles then sit and watch, correct ? but in answersing ShaQuaNew in unity and one country as example the big earthquake in china last year and the big flood in usa other other year which peoples and government showed more unity and effectiveness ? Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions. Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out. If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs. China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic. This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment... Roger. i think some times you just like to cause troubles then sit and watch, correct ? but in answersing ShaQuaNew in unity and one country as example the big earthquake in china last year and the big flood in usa other other year which peoples and government showed more unity and effectiveness ? Ah I'm so glad you decided to compare apples and oranges here Jin...Here is the major difference...A FREE PRESS... In China we are only given "good news" when bad things happen...In the US we are only given "bad news" even though I know there were thousands of people who volunteered and many more who donated money to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina we only heard about the ineptitude of FEMA ad nauseum...If the press in the US was controlled like the press in China the stories would probably have been remarkably similar... Unless you wish to believe that Americans are more selfish and self-centered than Chinese??? Edited January 12, 2009 by rogerluli (see edit history) Link to comment
Guest jin979 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions. Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out. If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs. China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic. This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment... Roger. i think some times you just like to cause troubles then sit and watch, correct ? but in answersing ShaQuaNew in unity and one country as example the big earthquake in china last year and the big flood in usa other other year which peoples and government showed more unity and effectiveness ? Ah I'm so glad you decided to compare apples and oranges here Jin...Here is the major difference...A FREE PRESS... In China we are only given "good news" when bad things happen...In the US we are only given "bad news" even though I know there were thousands of people who volunteered and many more who donated money to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina we only heard about the ineptitude of FEMA ad nauseum...If the press in the US was controlled like the press in China the stories would probably have been remarkably similar... Unless you wish to believe that Americans are more selfish and self-centered than Chinese??? was talking about governent response, not money donation, chinese army there 1 day usa maybe 2 ? , food, tents ? , not fly over in a plane by president.chinese common people helping each other rescue .usa fighting , robbing ,looting and that just the police and fire men eachother, understand, other just sit as vitim not do anything, just expect others give them all things ?all seen on both countries tvs. news. example how long it take to see blue tents for housing and nurses working in china compare to housing in usa after disater ?this is character things i think. that make show of soft and weak to others that know reality of world from generations of experience not credit cardsor rhetoric as answer.i think china has shown over last years that it it is moving towards a model you may need to follow.i know you wont agree Roger as you are Government man deeply commited to your cause. Link to comment
warpedbored Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I think every government mishandles some disasters. One can say China responded to the earthquake better than America did to Hurricane Katrina. On the other hand when the tsunami hit south east Asia China didn't respond as well as they should have either. I would also point out that America is one of the most generous nations on earth and respond with aid to disasters all over the world. One big difference that Jin pointed out is shameful to the US, looters. I don't recall hearing about any looting when the earthquake hit China. It is almost a given that it will happen in the US. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions. Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out. If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs. China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic. This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment... Roger. i think some times you just like to cause troubles then sit and watch, correct ? but in answersing ShaQuaNew in unity and one country as example the big earthquake in china last year and the big flood in usa other other year which peoples and government showed more unity and effectiveness ? Ah I'm so glad you decided to compare apples and oranges here Jin...Here is the major difference...A FREE PRESS... In China we are only given "good news" when bad things happen...In the US we are only given "bad news" even though I know there were thousands of people who volunteered and many more who donated money to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina we only heard about the ineptitude of FEMA ad nauseum...If the press in the US was controlled like the press in China the stories would probably have been remarkably similar... Unless you wish to believe that Americans are more selfish and self-centered than Chinese??? was talking about governent response, not money donation, chinese army there 1 day usa maybe 2 ? , food, tents ? , not fly over in a plane by president.chinese common people helping each other rescue .usa fighting , robbing ,looting and that just the police and fire men eachother, understand, other just sit as vitim not do anything, just expect others give them all things ?all seen on both countries tvs. news. example how long it take to see blue tents for housing and nurses working in china compare to housing in usa after disater ?this is character things i think. that make show of soft and weak to others that know reality of world from generations of experience not credit cardsor rhetoric as answer.i think china has shown over last years that it it is moving towards a model you may need to follow.i know you wont agree Roger as you are Government man deeply commited to your cause. Let me just correct one thing in your last sentence...I work for local government here in Wisconsin...I am NOT an agent of the US government... In fact you could probably more accurately characterize me as a "flower child still trying to change things"... Link to comment
Jeikun Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) Credit cards or rhetoric vs generations of experience? huh?? This thread is becoming f'ng ridiculous. What does an earthquake in Sichuan or a Hurricane in Louisiana have to do with Charter '08? Why does it have to be: China is better! Nuh-uh America is better! Is not! Is too!!! Neener-Neener... GAG! I will say that some people respond to even very general criticism or even speculative non-critical musings about their own countries like spoiled 8 year olds, and yet without hesitation jab back with even less eloquence or relavence to the subject being discussed. I dare say 99% of the posters here love both China AND the USA, albeit at varying degrees, and after their own fashions. For people who supposedly love across national and cultural borders, and have an open mind to each other's backgrounds, some of us sure like to spit and fling poo at each other, huh? Edited January 12, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history) Link to comment
amberjack1234 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 People taken off of the streets??? No way, impossible, couldn't happen in a million years, at least for expressing your right to certain freedoms. But then again they might come to get you some place else. If you don't follow all of these at least look at the first one and the last one. Larry http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13231 http://chinaaid.org/2008/10/06/teacher-arr...-victim-slogan/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...ake-photos.html http://article.wn.com/view/2009/01/03/Pare...ews%2Findex.txt http://chinaaid.org/2008/06/03/9-house-chu...inal-detention/ http://www.christiantelegraph.com/issue2263.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/3...arthquake.china Link to comment
warpedbored Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes "turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law..., Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law. Link to comment
Jeikun Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes "turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law..., Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law. Agreed, but while I do have a certain love for the country of my birth, and where my family has lived for over 350 years, I would not suggest that the USA is the standard against which China should be judged. I don't necessarily see democratization as equal to Americanization, or vice versa. Meaning when a comment is made regrading how China may benefit from moving more towards rule of law, liberties, or democracy... I don't see a counter about how the USA has a failing here or there is relevant anymore than a similar comment about Italy or Canada would be. The USA is not China's opposite, and it is not necessary to use it as a foil in order to express an opinion about China. This Us vs them mentality, takes a subject that was never an Us vs Them issue, and devolves it into senseless and pointless tit for tat, that stays only on the periphery of the actual issue, and gets people up on soapboxes or under security blankets. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 People taken off of the streets??? No way, impossible, couldn't happen in a million years, at least for expressing your right to certain freedoms. But then again they might come to get you some place else. If you don't follow all of these at least look at the first one and the last one. Larry http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13231 http://chinaaid.org/2008/10/06/teacher-arr...-victim-slogan/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...ake-photos.html http://article.wn.com/view/2009/01/03/Pare...ews%2Findex.txt http://chinaaid.org/2008/06/03/9-house-chu...inal-detention/ http://www.christiantelegraph.com/issue2263.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/3...arthquake.china See the problem Larry is that none of these stories is being reported on Chinese news online or TV... And they are all from the biased western news sources that are just out to make China look bad... Anyone who is actually interested in the truth can find many, many stories like these...But if you can only see what is at the end of your nose they do not exist... Ignorance is bliss... Link to comment
amberjack1234 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Roger, of that I am certain. There are hundreds or thousands of these reports every year. Many of them are in fact reported by the Chinese media via internet mostly for a short time that is until the government watch dogs find them and shut them down or tell them to shut up. Another web site that was very popular on the "Chapter 08" issue was closed down Friday. www.bullog.cn Larry Link to comment
IllinoisDave Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government It's interesting just how many Westerners actually believe that the Chinese government is milling about snatching people off the street after they fail to follow governmental directions. Truth is, it's just not happening. The people of China in my view, are quite verbal about the things they like in their country and what they don't like, and laugh at the thought of someone suggesting that they will be arrested or otherwise be reprimanded for speaking out. If you contrast China with the West when it comes to civil disobedience, then there are indeed differences. The US allows people to publicly demonstrate, block roads, shout at others with opposing viewpoints, and otherwise impede the normal flow of day to day life. The US was founded upon some of this, but in my view, it's been allowed to continue to an extreme, and has destroyed the very fabric of what America once represented. Unity no longer exists in the US, as there are strong differences between philosophical, and idealogical beliefs. China on the other hand contains a patriotic people, who are becoming increasingly educated at advanced levels. They are no longer a people that shut up and follow directions as they were during the cultural revolution, but are a society of independent thinkers, with a very strong moral and family ethic. This is such a silly view of how Americans are all this way and Chinese are all that way that it really deserves no further comment... Silly and, as usual, completely restricted to ONE person's (maybe two now?) PERSONAL experience with a few hundred or thousand people in a country of 1.3 BILLION!! Not to mention the extreme geographical limitations that apply. You might as well live in Florida and say that everyone in the US wears Bermudas year round and never has to shovel snow. Go live with the Uighurs or Tibetans or the families in Sichuan Province whose children died in those schools for six months or a year and report back as to just how hunky-dory they all think their government is. In the meantime please post on life in China as much as possible but spare us the quotations from the Ministry of Propaganda newsletter. Link to comment
Guest ShaQuaNew Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes "turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law..., Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law. This is so completely laughable, that posting any commentary to the contrary will be met with someone carrying a shovel-full of US foreign policy ready to force-feed to the unwilling. When you write about the rule of law, are you suggesting the US has a rule of law that would be applied in China? Get real. Firstly, it will never happen, and the reason is the current rule of US law is flawed and filled with all manner of intellectual corruption. Due process of law? From the country that states: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. Take a look around at the countless thousands of Americans that believed because they had a court-appointed attorney, that they would be rescued from the angry jaws of the DA offices, that filled with teams of intellectuals, all hell-bent on getting the maximum sentence applied. Then, think about the countless people that have been freed from an otherwise open-and-shut case simply because they had a fist-full of dollars. Additionally, the heads of state are given certain powers to forgive the crimes committed by their friends and friends of friends by granting pardons? I've looked at this thread and many others like it, and there are a few out there that simply want to CHANGE China to something that more resembles Western thinking, methods, philosophies, and ideologies. In my view, this thread has remained on topic, it's just that these sorts of topics carry a banner that the people of China see right through. You assume that the people of China are somehow forced to live under a domineering regime that prevents them from living a better life; a life like Americans. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Jason you make some good points and this topic has drifted but IMO naturally so. The topic also includes "turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law..., Comments on how China or the US for that matter enforce rule of law falls on topic IMO. Example, we regard the US as a country with rules of law yet in virtually every natural disaster there is looting. Obviously we don't always hold up to rule of law. This is so completely laughable, that posting any commentary to the contrary will be met with someone carrying a shovel-full of US foreign policy ready to force-feed to the unwilling. When you write about the rule of law, are you suggesting the US has a rule of law that would be applied in China? Get real. Firstly, it will never happen, and the reason is the current rule of US law is flawed and filled with all manner of intellectual corruption. Due process of law? From the country that states: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. Take a look around at the countless thousands of Americans that believed because they had a court-appointed attorney, that they would be rescued from the angry jaws of the DA offices, that filled with teams of intellectuals, all hell-bent on getting the maximum sentence applied. Then, think about the countless people that have been freed from an otherwise open-and-shut case simply because they had a fist-full of dollars. Additionally, the heads of state are given certain powers to forgive the crimes committed by their friends and friends of friends by granting pardons? I've looked at this thread and many others like it, and there are a few out there that simply want to CHANGE China to something that more resembles Western thinking, methods, philosophies, and ideologies. In my view, this thread has remained on topic, it's just that these sorts of topics carry a banner that the people of China see right through. You assume that the people of China are somehow forced to live under a domineering regime that prevents them from living a better life; a life like Americans. And 'um why would it be then that so many Chinese would love to come to America and try desparately to get here any way they can??? Link to comment
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