Yuanyang Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction. While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter. I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require. But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true. Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either. I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this. Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... B) can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone... Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but... B) I know, I know but being a "plugger" by nature I keep trying... Doesn't "plugger" mean skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric? B) Someone with the latest version of the Triggionary can check it. Inquiring minds want to know! Gosh Bob you're giving me too much credit... According to the wife I'm just a simple man who only has one thing on his mind... Oooh! B) That plugging. B) Link to comment
rogerluli Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 It WAS kinda hard to tell which the Doc was more enraged by, Rog's hyperbole-tinged reference to his skepticism, or the fact that he had the audacity to repeat the suggestion of shoddy construction. While I don't necessarily begrudge Jim the former, it was kinda lost in the sound and fury of the latter. I'm with Rog on the gist of the story. Of course we have no fool-proof way to get the evidence needed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that no rebar was used or that any other corners were cut for that matter. The Chinese gubmint's well-documented ability to clamp down on any sort of dissemination of that type of information makes it nearly impossible to do that, at least to the degree Jim seems to require. But IMHO before that wall of silence was raised there were enough eyewitness accounts in the immediate aftermath both by people on the scene and people familiar with the construction practices in that area to make a reasonable conclusion that what was being said was very likely true. Would it hold up in a court of law? Maybe not. But not everything presented as "evidence" in a court of law is necessarily true either. I guess the only way we can now more is to ask the locals. Any locals care to comment? I know some of the school officials and CP individual have expressed great regret over the schools. Plus, I know the one school principle that made himself very unpopular during the building of the schools by watching everything and insisting on high quality is now a hero in the people mind. A few CP individuals have now committed suicide over their regret for their actions. It seems like there is a smoking gun behind this. Excatly right on both of those stories Don...Only someone who refuses to see... can now doubt what happened with school construction in the earthquake zone... B) and in how much of China that is also earthquake prone... Don't sweat it to much, you can lead a horse to water you know but... B) I know, I know but being a "plugger" by nature I keep trying... Doesn't "plugger" mean skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric? Someone with the latest version of the Triggionary can check it. Inquiring minds want to know! Gosh Bob you're giving me too much credit... B) According to the wife I'm just a simple man who only has one thing on his mind... Oooh! That plugging. B) All this talk does make me realize one thing... B) Just because a guy has got a ton of edukashun doesn't mean he's learnt to see the forest for the trees... B) Link to comment
rogerluli Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 An official Ministry of Education report has finally admitted what everyone already knew... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/world/as...hina&st=cse that there are many structurally unsound schools in China ESPECIALLY in the most earthquake prone areas of the southwest... A special expenditure has been approved to rebuild those schools judged most at risk... Link to comment
Randy W Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 An official Ministry of Education report has finally admitted what everyone already knew... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/world/as...hina&st=cse that there are many structurally unsound schools in China ESPECIALLY in the most earthquake prone areas of the southwest... A special expenditure has been approved to rebuild those schools judged most at risk... Imagine that - The report called on the central government to finance the reconstruction of vulnerable schools quickly, especially those in rural areas and western parts of China that are seismically unstable. without pictures or anything ! Link to comment
IllinoisDave Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 But Rog...everybody knows it can't be true if it's in THE NEW YORK TIMES!! Link to comment
Tony_onrock Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Parents of children killed in their classrooms during the May 12 Sichuan earthquake filed a lawsuit Dec. 1 demanding compensation from the government for their loss...Inesplicably this story has not been reported at all in China... The news sources must surely have merely overlooked it... Yes these are the same children that dear friend SSWW claimed had been killed by the collapse of one foot high decorative block walls... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/world/as...tml?_r=1&hp You are quite the skilled practitioner of deceptive rhetoric! Do you enjoy telling lies about others to advance your unfounded opinions or is it a compulsion? Please cut and paste any post where you could document your ridiculous straw man. I stated that your picture of a small piece of cinder block, that you hold up as proof of your arguments, is proof of nothing. I stated that I suspected there were problems with the school construction but unlike you, I don't have "proof" of that. I could take a picture of a cinder block and claim it proves my assertions, I just don't operate that way because of an attachment to honesty. I'm sorry if my attachment bothers you. Please don't feel the need to speak honestly about what you actually know and don't know on my account. You are free to fill candle with fact-free rhetoric if you wish. But since you have thrown out this ridiculous argument again, step up to the plate. Lay out the actual evidence you have that that picture is a weightbearing wall built without rebar and not a non-weight-bearing wall or decorative cinder block wall. I anxiously await your "proof." Once you have laid out the facts that you can confirm about that picture, we'll all know the hard work you did to confirm what that picture actually represents. I DON"T KNOW what that picture is and I mentioned some of the possibilities. I NEVER claimed to know what that picture is. You are the one who "knows" it is a wall built without rebar. It may be, but at this point YOU DON"T KNOW THAT. Who took the picture?Where, exactly?What part of the structure does it represent?How did you determine that?How were you able to distinguish that chunk of concrete as "wall without rebar" and not appropriate cinder block construction?The actual piece of concrete seems quite small. What steps did you take to document that overall school construction in Sichuan could be extrapolated from that small bit of concrete?How much time did you spend researching these important questions so that you could feel comfortable making the public claim that your picture proves what you claim? Maybe you could take a moment off from lying about what I said to answer some of those questions? I made no claims about knowing how anyone died in this disaster. That picture and your caption are nothing but a device to inflame emotions and detracts from the real discussion of the problems, although it does garner you much attention and cast you as the compassionate, irate crusader with proof of the conspiracy. Might you be enjoying that attention? Wait! I will soon have a picture of you smiling and that will prove that you're enjoying the attention. If it's fair for you, I should be able to use the same device, correct? So what if I don't know why you're smiling. It nust be for the reason I imagine and that is enough to call it proof by your standards. If you've done no research on that picture and you don't know what part of the structure that picture represents, you should stop publishing your assertion that you have evidence of no rebar walls. There very well may have been no rebar walls. You simply don't have the evidence you claim to have. Stop trying to pretend that I have less compassion for the victims, merely because you want to be right about your silly picture. Anyone able to read English will be able to see that my argument was always about your picture and what you claim it represents and proves. Why are you unable to grasp that? really? What is the issue? You want some proof? For argument purposes or .... If you are serious about this, I can locate quite a few of the photos and evidence. Can you handle the real proof? What is it good for? Get real. TIC - This is China. Want to really know how schools were built and how money was spent? But then what is the point? What to know the kind of notices the bar association is giving to lawyers on these kind of particular cases and the milk power cases? Or better still, want to see how 9 month fetus were pulled out of womb because it/she/he was supposed to be killed due to the population control policies? This is not your fight. This is not my fight. So lets forget about the argument. China is great place to make money but you can't get too emotional about a few little brats being killed or mutilated for profits. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Tony we have some people here who refuse to accept anything bad about China... That's just their mindset and there's nothing you or I can do about it so let's just leave them to their own certainties... and move on... Link to comment
Guest Tony n Terrific Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Tony lives and was raised there in China. He is very articulate poster and I believe he knows what he is talking about.America had it black eyes in the past. Wounded Knee, we slaughtered the great heards of Buffalo so the Indian would starve. Rockefeller's Colorado Fuel and Mine Company where his hired soldiers open fire with Gatling guns on the striking workers and their families, The Haymarket Riot in Chicago, The Draft Riots in New York City during the Civil War, Ford Motor also with the Battle of the Rouge when the UAW was trying to organize. China has black eyes and so does the US, England etc. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 While one group of parents whose children died in the Sichuan earthquake tried unsuccessfully to file a lawsuit against those responsible for the shoddy school construction practices, another tried, also unsuccessfully, to go to Beijing to bring their demand for justice directly to China's leaders...They were forced to abandon their planned trip and their leader who was "detained" and questioned all night long had this to say to the police...¡°They said that I would never win in the battle against the Communist Party. I said I was not fighting against the party but only trying to demand that the people responsible for the death of our children be punished. I¡¯m not scared, because many parents are backing me up.¡± These parents are not out to change the political system...just to try to understand why their children had to die so that others could "get rich"... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/as...1&ref=world Link to comment
Corbin Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 While one group of parents whose children died in the Sichuan earthquake tried unsuccessfully to file a lawsuit against those responsible for the shoddy school construction practices, another tried, also unsuccessfully, to go to Beijing to bring their demand for justice directly to China's leaders...They were forced to abandon their planned trip and their leader who was "detained" and questioned all night long had this to say to the police...¡°They said that I would never win in the battle against the Communist Party. I said I was not fighting against the party but only trying to demand that the people responsible for the death of our children be punished. I¡¯m not scared, because many parents are backing me up.¡± These parents are not out to change the political system...just to try to understand why their children had to die so that others could "get rich"... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/as...1&ref=worldNo matter how you look at this it is a sad case and many died. Some died that maybe would not have if the building were built better. I don't have proof and will only say that from what I saw as construction of some of the buildings in the area it is a wonder there wasn't more dead. I do hope that those left behind of ones that died find some type of peace. May God be with them. Link to comment
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