denial because of language barrier

[tsap seui]

What I have heard is that GUZ is not so much interested in language barrier as the validity of the relationship. Are they scammers? Or are they for real?

If they are scammers I would hate to see this but if they are you will be so much better off if GUZ catches them in the interview then you find out here in the USA after it is too late and you could be damaged financially as well as emotionally.

 

Tony, if they deny my fiancee, I'll try to think about how some genius in the american consulate saved me from a "scammer" as I move from america to live with her in China. Should I send the kind folks in GUZ a thank you letter?. After all one of them spent a whole 10 minutes getting to know my fiancee, threw away most of the evidence she turned in, and I spent 3 months in China, over 4 trips, with her everyday getting to know her.

 

Not bustin' your chops Tony, I just hope you don't get caught up with GUZ pointing a "scammer" finger at your girlfriend. It could happen to anyone.

 

tsap seui

Your point is well taken Tsap Seui. I think alot of the problems many of face with our new SOs is that we are a little paranoid of the thought of something going wrong.

You have to use some of your own God given smarts when you are courting your SO and she should do the same with you.

Some issues you should be aware of are:

 

1. Do you have anything in common?

2. What kind of backround does she have?

3. What kind of family life did she have when she was growning up?

4. What do/did her parents do for a living?

5. If she has siblings what are they like?

6. Is she educated?

7. How does she treat other people in your presence?

8. What are the common goals you wish to achieve together?

9. Is there a warm family feeling from her towards her immediate family and is it reciporcated?

10. What are her friends like?

11. What about our children (if this applies)?

 

There are a dozens more I could add but this is an idea of what to look for.

 

That's a nice list Tony, and others have added their ideas on what they feel will attempt to prctect themselves from a scammer. We all have our ideas of what to look for, what makes us feel safe with our woman, as do these Chinese women.

 

However...the point I was trying to make was in regards to your post stating....

 

 

"What I have heard is that GUZ is not so much interested in language barrier as the validity of the relationship. Are they scammers? Or are they for real?

If they are scammers I would hate to see this but if they are you will be so much better off if GUZ catches them in the interview then you find out here in the USA after it is too late and you could be damaged financially as well as emotionally."

 

There is absolutely NO guarantee that the people at GUZ are going to make the right decision as far as protecting any of us from a scammer.

 

I was with my woman one on one for 3 months out of the first 9 1/2 months since I met her and up until our interview.

 

A GUZ VO interrogated her for a total of 10 minutes. Asked her 31 questions in 10 minutes...and GUZ knows her better than I do??????

 

Do YOU really believe that GUZ understands her better than me? For a year and a half I have talked to this woman 2 to 5 hours per day, every single day since I got home from the first trip.

 

My comment is simply, if GUZ denies my woman and says we do not have a bona fide relationship, indicating she is a scammer IN THEIR EYES....do you really think they found something that I didn't? Should I walk away from my fiancee because some clowns with posistions think she is a scammer?

 

Should anyone trust GUZ to be the judge of and say who they can become engaged to, or marry?

 

Those clowns in GUZ don't get into any trouble for making mistakes when they deny or screw around with peoples lives with AP blue slips that languish over 8 months.

 

May you never have to feel what this feels like, or what Chilton747 and many others you don't read about here are going through. I hope you don't really trust GUZ.

 

Again, not attacking you Tony, just trying to make a counter point to your point about GUZ rootin' out scammers.

 

I'm certainly not going to be sending the jerks a thank you letter for protecting me from my woman should they deny her, or for the over 8 months of time that was raped from us and is lost forever.

 

Good luck to ya Tony. You've got a beautiful woman and I hope GUZ doesn't "decide" she's scammin' ya, and Ihope and wish the same for the rest of you out there.

 

tsap seui

[Robert S.]

My China lady has been scammin' me for seven years so far.

[BrokenHeart]

Take a deep breath of air and relax.

I have flown over 2 times to Shenzhen to see my Finacee and the interview went as I thought, Denial, "not a bonafide relationship" she was devestated and I was too. Did that make me stop LOVING HER.........HELL NO NO NO.

Now we are married, AND NOW SHE IS MY WIFE, (3 times). So now I filed the I-130 and received the 1st NOA and waiting for the second, very shortly. We talk everyday and the LOVE just builds so much, its about to burst my Heart. Do we give up? Never in a million years, it makes me so very strong to have my wife with me, LOVE and TRUE LOVE overcomes whatever it takes. Sure, my wife is upset, but I say, Honey, we will do what it takes she is so meek and mild and waits for the right decisions from me, and the people here I ask.

Just did my next flight to Shenzhen in June.

 

Be strong and be patient.

 

I learned through this wesite, we have CHEETOS, my stocks rise every week......hehehehehe

[tsap seui]

Take a deep breath of air and relax.

I have flown over 2 times to Shenzhen to see my Finacee and the interview went as I thought, Denial, "not a bonafide relationship" she was devestated and I was too. Did that make me stop LOVING HER.........HELL NO NO NO.

Now we are married, AND NOW SHE IS MY WIFE, (3 times). So now I filed the I-130 and received the 1st NOA and waiting for the second, very shortly. We talk everyday and the LOVE just builds so much, its about to burst my Heart. Do we give up? Never in a million years, it makes me so very strong to have my wife with me, LOVE and TRUE LOVE overcomes whatever it takes. Sure, my wife is upset, but I say, Honey, we will do what it takes she is so meek and mild and waits for the right decisions from me, and the people here I ask.

Just did my next flight to Shenzhen in June.

 

Be strong and be patient.

 

I learned through this wesite, we have CHEETOS, my stocks rise every week......hehehehehe

 

Ya know, those clowns can't stop a bona fide relationship. Try as they might, they can not stop a bona fide relationship. If they deny us, I'll just go over marry her, move in with her, wait a year or two and apply again, then when our son is out of high school, we'll see if the "joker" thinks we are bona fide or not

 

tsap seui

[shyaushu]

That is certainly true, and the operative word is "should" be awarded.

 

But really, is the slim possibility of catching a "scammer" worth the incalculable harm done by separating two people committed to their marriage and their shared lives? Someone, please tell me what "National Security Interest", or any other interest, for that matter, is served by making people endure this incredibly complex and expensive process just to "weed out" the one in a hundred or one in 500 dishonest people?

 

And how exactly does it hurt the US or its citizens if some Chinese person marries an American, manages to make it to the US and a green card, leaves him or her, and now is flipping burgers in the Bronx? I admit it's "dishonest" and all, but it's the classic shooting mosquitoes with a shotgun. There are certainly very few "hits" for all the other lives disrupted or destroyed. And these are the lives of American citizens! What's the point?

 

Especially when hundreds of illegal aliens cross our southern borders every day, and the only effort made to stop them is the erection of 150 miles of fence along a 1500 mile border and some security cameras? Is it just me, or are Chinese people being singled out?

 

Instead of actually following the law Congress passed, the USCIS is engaged in making such important evaluations as whether a relationship is going to last ("how did the people meet?") or if it is "bona fide", despite a marriage certificate, photos of the couple's lives together, and, often, after the two people have lived together for months or years. Don't forget, by the time of the interview they have checked into the spouse's entire life, his or her parent's and sibling's lives, past addresses, previous schools and jobs ~ everything. So, Osama Bin Laden would be caught in the initial application.

 

It's all beyond me, and the very definition of bureaucracy run amok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My wife received her visa and spoke very little English.

 

If your evidence of relationship is strong and all the paper work is done error free, the visa should be awarded.

 

Kang Ning Sun

[chilton747]

Right on shyaushu!!!! Just what kind of trouble could America possibly get in for allowing ordinary Chinese people into our country? Is our gvt protecting us from them, or ourselves? What right do they have to do this? It has to be political no doubt! America's bureaucracy must be paranoid about China for some reason!

All I am wanting is for my wife to have a chance to come here, meet my family, begin a life together, and live out a happy life. We pose no harm to this society and can only contribute in a positive manner. But try telling GZ this. They have their orders but we will never know what they are. In the meantime as shyaushu said, that one in 500 must be awful important to them!

 

That is certainly true, and the operative word is "should" be awarded.

 

But really, is the slim possibility of catching a "scammer" worth the incalculable harm done by separating two people committed to their marriage and their shared lives? Someone, please tell me what "National Security Interest", or any other interest, for that matter, is served by making people endure this incredibly complex and expensive process just to "weed out" the one in a hundred or one in 500 dishonest people?

 

And how exactly does it hurt the US or its citizens if some Chinese person marries an American, manages to make it to the US and a green card, leaves him or her, and now is flipping burgers in the Bronx? I admit it's "dishonest" and all, but it's the classic shooting mosquitoes with a shotgun. There are certainly very few "hits" for all the other lives disrupted or destroyed. And these are the lives of American citizens! What's the point?

 

Especially when hundreds of illegal aliens cross our southern borders every day, and the only effort made to stop them is the erection of 150 miles of fence along a 1500 mile border and some security cameras? Is it just me, or are Chinese people being singled out?

 

Instead of actually following the law Congress passed, the USCIS is engaged in making such important evaluations as whether a relationship is going to last ("how did the people meet?") or if it is "bona fide", despite a marriage certificate, photos of the couple's lives together, and, often, after the two people have lived together for months or years. Don't forget, by the time of the interview they have checked into the spouse's entire life, his or her parent's and sibling's lives, past addresses, previous schools and jobs ~ everything. So, Osama Bin Laden would be caught in the initial application.

 

It's all beyond me, and the very definition of bureaucracy run amok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My wife received her visa and spoke very little English.

 

If your evidence of relationship is strong and all the paper work is done error free, the visa should be awarded.

 

Kang Ning Sun

[BrokenHeart]

Can we all say SMUGGLE TOO MEXICO then they can walk over and get every benefit and MORE then we get. So, keep voting in the LUG HEADS that have been in government for 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 years and this is what we get. Does the Consulate know what the HELL a "NON BONIFIDE RELATIONSHIP IS" or its a gut feeling. You can have every document known to man and its still a denial, now fork over more money. They must be on a quote system to deny, I talk to the Mexicans everyday and the only thing they know is "MONEY" and "BENEFITS", to have the "BAMBINOS" that we pay for.

[shyaushu]

Well, I can hardly blame the Mexicans and Central Americans, really. Who wouldn't travel somewhere else if life there was much better? We did the same thing here: our life living and teaching in Henan Province was the pits and now that we are living in Guangzhou and teaching at a university it's like we died and went to heaven. We just didn't have to break any laws to do it.

 

The confusion regarding their resorting to such absurdities as "not a bona fide relationship" comes from a fundamental misunderstanding regarding what GUZ does. For, instead of being the diligent, hard-working public servants we pay them to be, they are actually in the business of keeping as many people (Chinese and most other Asians) out of the US on whatever pretext they can conjure up. They are not working for the American people: they are working for the Executive branch.

 

If they were doing the job we pay them to do they would look closely at each person's (too many) application forms, check all of the information, cash our checks (again, way too much), and grant a visa to any and every foreign spouse of an American citizen who completed everything properly, paid all the (way too expensive) fees, and in whose applications there was nothing objective that raised doubts.

 

Since there's precious little of that stuff (objective, hard evidence that fraud or deception is going on), they work hard instead to offer any plausible denial they can and, if they had it their way, no visas would ever be granted. But the American people and Congress would raise the roof if they did that, of course, because Congress passed a number of laws that requires the Executive branch to issue immigration visas to the spouses of American citizens. So, they try to issue the minimum number possible ~ just enough to prevent raised eyebrows or Congressional investigations.

 

The real reason they offer us such drivel as "not a boa fide" relationship and the related bullshit is because they have NOTHING objective in the application upon which to base the denial they want to issue, so they resort to subjective assessments. They "don't like the way two people met" or there are not enough photos of the two of them in dreamlike adoration of each other. Meeting on the Internet is "bad"; meeting at a church social is "good." Even meeting through mutual friends is suspect: hell, the "mutual friend" was actually a sort of marriage pimp!

 

That's why all this primping and fretting about how to look and what to say in the interview is so silly, really. None of that matters. It is based on the assumption that getting an immigration visa is like getting a driver's license.

 

To get a license you pass the written test (objective), pass the eye exam (objective) and then pass the driving test (semi-objective) and they issue you a license. The driving examiners do not resort to such childishness as saying "I didn't believe the applicant was confident enough behind the wheel" or "They really don't appear to be old enough to drive." You pays your money and you gets your license.

 

The visa officials (and more to the point, their handlers) are intent on doing everything they can to cut down on immigration and "fairness" or objectivity are not in their vocabulary. Believing they are sincere or straight up in their work is a dangerous self-deception. We all just hope and pray we are among the ones they decide to let pass so they can keep congress off their backs.

 

The wonderful work that everyone on the Candle does is great, but it is focused entirely on the margins: helping people understand the (purposely-complicated and bizarre) process; learning about the time frames; helping fill out the many forms (one would suffice), etc. It definitely helps many people in these things, but a real impact on the unconscionable immigration process as practiced by the USCIS will not occur without a fundamental change of focus.

[georgeandli]

I couldn't agree more with shyaushu. Well put! Somewhere in the copy of the revocation letter GUZ sent to DHS they said "while the VO can not look into someones heart for intent" then they go ahead and do just that! Got me madder than heck. But that was just turned into ammo against them in my letter to the DHS for overcome. Good point on the drivers license, I used that at the congressmans office when I was dealing with his aide.

[chilton747]

I couldn't agree more with shyaushu. Well put! Somewhere in the copy of the revocation letter GUZ sent to DHS they said "while the VO can not look into someones heart for intent" then they go ahead and do just that! Got me madder than heck. But that was just turned into ammo against them in my letter to the DHS for overcome. Good point on the drivers license, I used that at the congressmans office when I was dealing with his aide.

 

Ditto to the Tee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[david_dawei]

honestly.... on some level, doesn't it seem like 'mission impossible' to this consulate... the tactics are more interrogation and less about courtship and family re-union... Given the most likely pressures on illegal immigration and the volume they get, it probably is a damned if you do and damned if you do don't side to cases in the bigger picture.

 

So they are not as interested in the personal aspects as they are in the bona-fide intent; but I cannot believe they are naive and thinking that everyone they pass is truly "found a soul mate" for life and in love and wishes nothing but to be together till death do them part...

 

They know how most people meet online and they know how these relationships often get started on a single visit following a few dozen exchanges. They know there are language barriers and some cannot even talk. They know that some are scamming and most are simply taking a chance for a better life... As Mark Twain suggested of the bible, what maybe should concern us is not what the VOs don't know, but what the VOs do know... and they have seen it all and they won't be able to truly pull out the legit scammers with 100% success...

[tsap seui]

I feel so safe knowing that clowns in a consulate are protecting me from my "awful scammer" fiancee. I'll try and remember to drop them a thank you card when I move to China to live with that terrible scammer.

 

tsap seui

[shyaushu]

You definitely make an excellent point, David. The laws authorizing spousal immigration probably pre-dated the Internet, and Congress surely did not anticipate the flood of applications that resulted from how easy it would be to connect with people all over the world. Prior to that these kinds of visas were probably almost exclusively used by people who met and married their spouses while stationed overseas or working in foreign countries for extended periods.

 

But the State Dept. interpreted their mandate in an extremely cynical way. They argued (reasonably) that the Internet was also a new, convenient way for people to try to become US residents through some kind of scheme or rouse. So they made the decision to "get into" the [sponsor's and/or beneficiary's] minds and make a "gut" decision about their their real intentions, as if they could actually do that. I suppose they sold this new approach as "being proactive", but it is just the sow's ear of subjectivity made into the silk purse of a reasonable determination. But there is nothing "reasonable" about it (or they would give reasons!).

 

The focal point is what is all this fuss about? Yes, there are definitely bad actors out there who will use the Internet (or a marriage broker or "friend") to massage the visa system and gain entry and potential residency into the US. So what? What exactly is so bad about some ~ perhaps even quite a few ~ Chinese women (or men) using the visa application system to gain entry when they could not have otherwise done that? What are we afraid they will do here?

 

We have vetted them in every way and in every direction. We know everything there is to know about them, their family, their schooling, their previous work, their criminal records . . . even the inside of their bodies! The probability of a subversive or serious criminal coming here with all that scrutiny is almost zero. So, the worst that will happen is some cute 30 year old Chinese woman will marry a 60 year old fart like me, divorce him soon after arriving in the US, and then meet and marry the 35 year old stock broker she really hoped for and make a new life in the US.

 

The old fart (me) gets harmed, I suppose, at least emotionally, but the stock broker is happy and so is the Chinese immigrant. I just don't see the potential exposure justifying the Kafkaesque visa process nor the unjustifiable subjectivity of the entire thing. It's simply a cost~ benefit equation. So many lives (of American citizens!) made tragic for such a small (potential) gain.

 

The irony of it all seems to be that they don't even trust their own process! If they have "vetted" all the applicants so carefully then they should be confident about "going" with the determinations they made. But they aren't.

 

 

honestly.... on some level, doesn't it seem like 'mission impossible' to this consulate... the tactics are more interrogation and less about courtship and family re-union... Given the most likely pressures on illegal immigration and the volume they get, it probably is a damned if you do and damned if you do don't side to cases in the bigger picture.

 

So they are not as interested in the personal aspects as they are in the bona-fide intent; but I cannot believe they are naive and thinking that everyone they pass is truly "found a soul mate" for life and in love and wishes nothing but to be together till death do them part...

 

They know how most people meet online and they know how these relationships often get started on a single visit following a few dozen exchanges. They know there are language barriers and some cannot even talk. They know that some are scamming and most are simply taking a chance for a better life... As Mark Twain suggested of the bible, what maybe should concern us is not what the VOs don't know, but what the VOs do know... and they have seen it all and they won't be able to truly pull out the legit scammers with 100% success...

Edited April 3, 2008 by shyaushu (see edit history)

[pbatt]

I am curious if anyone knows if other consulates in other parts of the world are as tough as Guangzhou?

I do not read VJ but have not read much in the news either if others having same problems.

 

Our immigration policies in this country as so archaic in many ways. Mexicans can cross at will., Then have to leave if caught. Cubans can stay if their feet touch american soil.

Illegals get amnesty

But if you do things the proper way, you are crucified and vilified. No rhyme nor reason.

 

Paul

[Guest Rob & Jin]

I am curious if anyone knows if other consulates in other parts of the world are as tough as Guangzhou?

I do not read VJ but have not read much in the news either if others having same problems.

 

Our immigration policies in this country as so archaic in many ways. Mexicans can cross at will., Then have to leave if caught. Cubans can stay if their feet touch american soil.

Illegals get amnesty

But if you do things the proper way, you are crucified and vilified. No rhyme nor reason.

 

Paul

 

 

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