communist party issues

[SirLancelot]

However, we really want GZ to understand that in fact, CCP membership is required for certain job positions. Period. - I believer this is what Randy is talking about.

 

Since every individual is different, we should not bring unnecessary difficulty to their visa cases.

 

Ok Joanne. I can agree with this. CCP membership is definitely a requirement for certain jobs. I fully concur. As I've stated earlier, I further believe GUZ should not hold CCP membership against Chinese citizens at all.

[waitingguy]

Lance, you are the only person in this entire thread who has used the word "forced". You are arguing with yourself.

 

It seems to me that people have a good understanding of Communist party issues, at least at a personal level. The use of emotionalism isn't called for.

 

Every discussion that I remember about Communist party issues centers around its effect on the visa.

 

Ok, I went back and re-read the entire thread again. I grant you that no one specifically used the actual word "forced" but if you re-read the entire thread, I think honestly you have to admit the inference from several posts/posters was that the government somehow forces everyone to join the CCP if they wanted any kind of job.

 

Bottom line is that only 5% of the populous are currently members of the CCP. If any of your spouses/SO were or are lucky enough to be a member of the CCP, it only helps their lives in China. GUZ has nothing to do with a Chinese person's life when in China. Only when the Chinese person wants to immigrate to the US does GUZ become an issue.

 

Again, I'm going to submit that at the time any one is offered a CCP membership, they eagerly embrace the offer, rather than some on here have made it sound, as if people timidly and apprehensively accept the membership with fear and trepidation.

 

Dave wrote:

But I think I do remember in some past threads the fairly strong implication that people have been forced to join the Party to qualify for certain jobs. I know no one is suggesting that they were literally "forced" physically, rather "forced" or "required" out of necessity. Certainly they didn't have to take the job, but they should be able to take such a job without repercussions when it comes to the visa process.

When words like "forced" are used, it conjures up the notion of "Big Bad Commie China" forcing it's citizens to join "The Party" to make a living. In this sense I can see where it could be a sensitive subject for Lance or any of us with an affinity for the China we've come to know and love.

 

Dave, I appreciate your comments. I agree with you that they should be able to take a job without having to worry about the visa process. The problem is, I think in all circumstances, the visa applicants obtain their jobs long before they applied for a US immigration visa. At the time of their membership to the CCP, I believe they sincerely wanted it. It's only much later that their CCP membership is considered a deficit for US immigration visa processing. This is why I think it's disingenuous to claim that they were forced to accept the CCP membership, because at the time they accepted CCP membership, they were quite eager to accept it.

 

Likewise, I appreciate your comments over anti-China sentiments. I don't like unnecessary anti-Chinese sentiments, but I'm all for criticism of the Chinese government when it's valid. I have a lot of criticism for China myself. But on this issue, I think it's just disingenuous for people to blame this issue on the CCP. A Chinese person can only benefit from being in the CCP in China. There is no loss. Only as it relates to US immigration matters will a CCP membership be suddenly considered a liability.

 

I will tell you this. I know people who have turned down CCP membership because they knew they would eventually emigrate to the US. For those people, I don't think they're disingenuous. I applaud their integrity. For the rest who benefited before they knew they'd emigrate by joining the CCP and then complain afterwards only when they learn it affects their chances of obtaining an immigration visa, that is disingenuous.

 

In the end, Carl has already said that almost everyone--if not all--eventually overcome BLUE due to CCP membership. So it's not a huge problem, just a little delay before the eventual visa is issued.

[waitingguy]

Hi to all, I wanted to speak up for our loved ones waiting for the visa approval- when asked at the interview are you a member of the ccp?what else but the truth should they speak, they have no knowledge of wrongdoing or contempt of our laws they just want to be with us-when i read this last post i felt upset because somehow we are shifting blame - my wife was told by her boss I NEED YOU TO JOIN- TODAY- it was for his career advancement- she had no idea that oneday she would marry an american- nor did she care- she needed a job- maybe you should live a day of the life of a woman in china- she left that party back in october of 2005 long before any mention of me or a visa- she was used by her boss- and for no gain for herself other than a job and 2000 rmb per month- try to live on that- if you want to cast stones- live it first---GOD BLESS them and each of us waiting for our loved ones!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SirLancelot]

Hi to all, I wanted to speak up for our loved ones waiting for the visa approval- when asked at the interview are you a member of the ccp?what else but the truth should they speak, they have no knowledge of wrongdoing or contempt of our laws they just want to be with us-when i read this last post i felt upset because somehow we are shifting blame - my wife was told by her boss I NEED YOU TO JOIN- TODAY- it was for his career advancement- she had no idea that oneday she would marry an american- nor did she care- she needed a job- maybe you should live a day of the life of a woman in china- she left that party back in october of 2005 long before any mention of me or a visa- she was used by her boss- and for no gain for herself other than a job and 2000 rmb per month- try to live on that- if you want to cast stones- live it first---GOD BLESS them and each of us waiting for our loved ones!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think you continue to believe registering for CCP membership is like registering for the Republican or Democrat party in the USA. It works NOTHING like what you've described above. You don't simply say I want to be CCP member and you're suddenly a CCP member. It's EXCLUSIVE! 5% of Chinese belong to the CCP. You're vetted! You're checked! The process takes a while and a committee decides whether you're accepted or not. Most people are not accepted by the party. The boss used her? How? By asking her become a member of the CCP, where she only benefits? The boss of her company doesn't even have the power to grant her membership into the party. Membership acceptance is discussed and debated by a special committee. There's a hell of a lot more people who want CCP membership than not so there's no need from above to prod anyone to accept CCP membership.

 

You're arguing about a process which you don't understand at all. Before meeting you or wanting to emigrate to the US, her life in China is better by being in the CCP than not. If you don't want to accept that fact, fine. But don't try to argue about something you don't understand. For the purpose of trying to obtain an immigration visa to the US, having a CCP membership will be a liability, but for the purpose of living in China, being a CCP member is a benefit. It's an asset, not a liability. No one in China who is a member thinks its a liability. Everyone thinks its an asset. Only Americans think it's bad to be a CCP member.

 

There are CCP members who don't agree with all that the party stands for, to be sure, but certainly all CCP members realize the advantage of being a CCP member in China. They may disagree with some ideas of the CCP but Chinese people are pragmatic if nothing else and they fully realize how being a CCP member will benefit them.

[warpedbored]

I agree no one is forced to join the CCP. BUT... there are jobs you can only get if you are member. Other jobs if you want to get promoted you must join the party. The basis of the waiver is if you joined because of employment and not ideology. Of the 5% that are allowed to join I would guess that probably only 5% do it because of ideology.

[SirLancelot]

I agree no one is forced to join the CCP. BUT... there are jobs you can only get if you are member. Other jobs if you want to get promoted you must join the party. The basis of the waiver is if you joined because of employment and not ideology. Of the 5% that are allowed to join I would guess that probably only 5% do it because of ideology.

 

 

there are jobs you can only get if you are member.

Agreed.

 

Of the 5% that are allowed to join I would guess that probably only 5% do it because of ideology.

I can't find stats to support that or refute that, so I'll just let the statement stand on it's own.

 

The basis of the waiver is if you joined because of employment and not ideology.

I agree with this. So from a very pragmatic point of view, if my only choice is to say I joined the CCP due to mandatory employment requirements and not for ideological reasons, in order to be granted a waiver, then I know what I would say to obtain the waiver.

 

One is really not given much of a choice to give an honest answer if one's objective is to obtain a waiver. If one was able to state that for ideological reasons they joined the CCP and one was still able to obtain the waiver, then I think we'd get a better picture of the true ratio. But as it is now, practically, one is only able to give one reason if one wants to obtain an immigration visa.

 

I'm not defending the CCP. It's a fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans hate the CCP or Communists as we're taught to hate the commies--be they Soviets, North Korean, Cuban or Chinese--from the day we enter elementary school. But when one falls in love with a person who turns out to be a real "commie" then it seems one must find a way to justify that the "real" commie must have been forced or brainwashed to be a commie, instead of voluntarily believed in the cause or actively sought membership.

 

Having taught English to college level students in Guilin, I was exposed first hand to 280 students from all over China. There are in fact some very nationalistic and patriotic Chinese students who very much believe in the Communist cause and sincerely joined or want to join the CCP because of ideological reasons--the fringe benefits help of course. I even engaged in some heated discussions with a few of those students during a couple of my classes. Grant, many students did not care one way or the other--at least they didn't say much in class--but the cause is not completely lost.

[warpedbored]

It was only a guess and I doubt you could find accurate statistical poll data to frame a solid opinion one way or another. That being said I think most would agree that Chinese in general are very pragmatic people. That alone would indicate that most join because there is something in it for them.

[SirLancelot]

It was only a guess and I doubt you could find accurate statistical poll data to frame a solid opinion one way or another. That being said I think most would agree that Chinese in general are very pragmatic people. That alone would indicate that most join because there is something in it for them.

 

That is true. I have to agree with that.

[tywy_99]

As I've stated earlier, I further believe GUZ should not hold CCP membership against Chinese citizens at all.

It depends on the citizen's activity within the party. The US consulate wouldn't give a spy a visa or anyone considered a threat to national security. That's a bit brash, I know, but it is exactly what they look out for considering today's heightened level of security.

The consulate is only doing their job by adhering to the law. This in turn makes it difficult for some visa applicants.

[SirLancelot]

As I've stated earlier, I further believe GUZ should not hold CCP membership against Chinese citizens at all.

It depends on the citizen's activity within the party. The US consulate wouldn't give a spy a visa or anyone considered a threat to national security. That's a bit brash, I know, but it is exactly what they look out for considering today's heightened level of security.

The consulate is only doing their job by adhering to the law. This in turn makes it difficult for some visa applicants.

 

I can't disagree with that TY_99. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the US government should freely admit spys from any nation.

 

But I think the criteria should be to limit access to "spies" and not "CCP membership" itself. I'm not sure if all Chinese spies have to be CCP members. Perhaps.

 

It's interesting to note that on the law books one does NOT have to be a member of the CCP to be a member of the Chinese People Congress. In fact, there is at least one member of the People's Congress who is NOT a member of the CCP. Most likely a token gesture, but still it's interesting to note that not 100% of the People's Congress are CCP members.

 

I'm definitely with you on denying visas to spies though.

Edited September 17, 2007 by SirLancelot (see edit history)

[Joanne]

As I've stated earlier, I further believe GUZ should not hold CCP membership against Chinese citizens at all.

It depends on the citizen's activity within the party. The US consulate wouldn't give a spy a visa or anyone considered a threat to national security. That's a bit brash, I know, but it is exactly what they look out for considering today's heightened level of security.

The consulate is only doing their job by adhering to the law. This in turn makes it difficult for some visa applicants.

 

I can't disagree with that TY_99. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the US government should freely admit spys from any nation.

 

But I think the criteria should be to limit access to "spies" and not "CCP membership" itself. I'm not sure if all Chinese spies have to be CCP members. Perhaps.

 

The spy will certainly and easily hide their CCP membership status.

[papa bear]

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27170

[waitingguy]

it seems we have drifted off the topic-- for some unknown reason we have a voice against our chinese SO'S-- his views --opinions--ideas- do not apply to us-- we hold nothing against them but find the remarks irrelevant- why dispute something when you are not apart of it--this site is to help each of us- to understand the different visa interviews-blue sheets-overcome-- -- WHEN IN ROME--------

[tywy_99]

it seems we have drifted off the topic-- for some unknown reason we have a voice against our chinese SO'S-- his views --opinions--ideas- do not apply to us-- we hold nothing against them but find the remarks irrelevant- why dispute something when you are not apart of it--this site is to help each of us- to understand the different visa interviews-blue sheets-overcome-- -- WHEN IN ROME--------

I'm not quite following you, waitingguy. How have we drifted off topic and who has a voice against our SO's? I'm only asking. Thanks

[SinoTexas]

it seems we have drifted off the topic-- for some unknown reason we have a voice against our chinese SO'S-- his views --opinions--ideas- do not apply to us-- we hold nothing against them but find the remarks irrelevant- why dispute something when you are not apart of it--this site is to help each of us- to understand the different visa interviews-blue sheets-overcome-- -- WHEN IN ROME--------

I'm not quite following you, waitingguy. How have we drifted off topic and who has a voice against our SO's? I'm only asking. Thanks

I am going to have to agree with Ty. The OP is about the CCP and visa issuance. This has stayed on topic with people voicing different points of view. I'm not sure where this had strayed from the original posting. Expressing dissenting views of a topic is NOT straying off the subject. Sorry, but I think you are wrong in that we have drifted off subject.

 

As aye,

 

Jim