DMV Difficulty

[Phil & Ningning]

When Jiening went to the DMV for her drivers license application, I had to work so my mother graciousy offered to take her down for me. She passed the test alright, but the highly skilled attendant spotted an obvious problem. Um, it seems (according to this employee) that the little machine that records signatures doesn't recognize Chinese characters. I don't really believe that the machine can tell a difference. It's purpose is to record and reproduce whatever is scribbled on it. In my best guess, this person was looking for some letter she could recognize and there were none. The DMV "specialist" instructed my wife to sign her name in the English alphabet and she complied.

 

Jiening told me a few days ago of this. Immediately I began seeing all sorts of problems. Every piece of paper she has signed for immigration has been in Chinese with no problems. Her signature is in Chinese, and that's all there is to it. Even on our joint checking account her signature is in Chinese. If she were to sign a check in English the bank would surely reject it. At biometrics she signed in Chinese. The fact is that the "signature" she gave the DMV is not her signature and bears no resemblance to the real thing. This is an identification issue, and now when she recieves her drivers license it won't reflect the same signature the US government has on file. Who knows what other problems this could cause in the future?

 

What should I do to correct this? I am thinking of having her write a statement that her signature is in Chinese, having it notarized, presenting it to the DMV with her passport and green card, and requesting that she be allowed to re-sign the machine. Is there a rule or regulation in CA that says a person's signature must be in English?

 

My signature is in English, but I don't think any DMV employee could read it without looking at my printed name first. It's just a mark I make, unique to me. That's all her signature is, a mark she makes that is unique to her.

[cosmiclobster]

Some pea brain at the DMV decided to make up the rules as they went along. Amy has her CA ID with her signature in Chinese, her SSN card and our checking account also has her signature in Chinese.

 

How stupid can the person be? When I sign my name in English, you would be lucky to recognize 2 letters and I've seen signatures more obtuse than mine!!!

 

Go back to the DMV and ask to see a supervisor or call the DMV in Sacto and tell them what happened. I would demand an ID card with her proper signature!!!

[tmkeith]

Some pea brain at the DMV decided to make up the rules as they went along. Amy has her CA ID with her signature in Chinese, her SSN card and our checking account also has her signature in Chinese.

 

How stupid can the person be? When I sign my name in English, you would be lucky to recognize 2 letters and I've seen signatures more obtuse than mine!!!

 

Go back to the DMV and ask to see a supervisor or call the DMV in Sacto and tell them what happened. I would demand an ID card with her proper signature!!!

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I agree completely. Wendy got her original ID in Sept with her Chinese signature. Got her renewal today with the same one.

 

Dammit, she got her learner's permit today with her Chinese signature. Why couldn't we have had your pea-brained clerk handling her application?

[mercator]

My signature may as well be Chinese, or Arabic for that matter. Its totally unrecognizable. But its mine, just like the Chinese signature is hers.

 

I did some cursive of my wife's pinyin name, and she liked them, but I don't expect her to use or adapt them for signature.

[Cerberus]

When Jiening went to the DMV for her drivers license application, I had to work so my mother graciousy offered to take her down for me. She passed the test alright, but the highly skilled attendant spotted an obvious problem. Um, it seems (according to this employee) that the little machine that records signatures doesn't recognize Chinese characters. I don't really believe that the machine can tell a difference. It's purpose is to record and reproduce whatever is scribbled on it. In my best guess, this person was looking for some letter she could recognize and there were none. The DMV "specialist" instructed my wife to sign her name in the English alphabet and she complied.

 

Jiening told me a few days ago of this. Immediately I began seeing all sorts of problems. Every piece of paper she has signed for immigration has been in Chinese with no problems. Her signature is in Chinese, and that's all there is to it. Even on our joint checking account her signature is in Chinese. If she were to sign a check in English the bank would surely reject it. At biometrics she signed in Chinese. The fact is that the "signature" she gave the DMV is not her signature and bears no resemblance to the real thing. This is an identification issue, and now when she recieves her drivers license it won't reflect the same signature the US government has on file. Who knows what other problems this could cause in the future?

 

What should I do to correct this? I am thinking of having her write a statement that her signature is in Chinese, having it notarized, presenting it to the DMV with her passport and green card, and requesting that she be allowed to re-sign the machine. Is there a rule or regulation in CA that says a person's signature must be in English?

 

My signature is in English, but I don't think any DMV employee could read it without looking at my printed name first. It's just a mark I make, unique to me. That's all her signature is, a mark she makes that is unique to her.

169250[/snapback]

Phil,

 

Welcome to America. Consulates sees signatures all the time like your wife signs her name. My wife Yin is the same way. Unfortunately, consulates don't run the world. It simply depends on where you are, that is in important point.

 

I have business dealings in China. Many contracts will not accept my sigature like I sign in the US. I now have an ID stamp with my family heritage on it, and I sign my name in Mandarian; weieudai. I'm an American and this doesn't bother me one little bit. Because I'm an American in China. No more, no less! Your wife and mine have the same problem also. On her visa application there are two signatures; One in Chinese, the other in cursive English

 

IMHO opinion and this is not meant as a flame, "You can't fight City Hall!" Romanize the spelling of her name and have her practice signing it. Someone asks for a signature, have her sign in Chinese. They don't want that? OK! Have her sign in cursive English too!

 

Why would you want to go and get notarized statements? She is Chinese and she knows it! You know she is Chinese and you know it! They only thing that they are asking for is a signature that a computer software application recognizes. Give it to them. This doesn't detract what she already is, it is not meant as an insult and it doesn't affect the the love between the two of you. You stated that you are from California. My ex and I lived in California for five years and puchased a home there. She is Korean; she doesn't sign a contract in Hangul (Korean) and no realtor or mortage company in their right minds would accept it as a legal binding document. She also had two signatures! One Hangul and one English cursive. We don't wnjoy living in high rent apartments or the streets because signing her name is an insult to her. She adapts! Same as you and I have both adapted!

 

IMHO and still not meant as a flame, enjoy and love your wife and stop trying to fight City Hall. They will win, everytime. You and she have your love and lives to wory about. Not worry about signatures! She will still be Chinese and your wife after she signs her name in English! cursive! Move on and pick your battles. Life is too short already!

[cosmiclobster]

Cerberus: There is no "software on the little machine that records signatures and doesn't recognize Chinese characters" in CA.

The DMV software takes a picture of her "real, original and true" signature, stores it in their database as a graphic file and prints it on her ID card. The pea brain DMV clerk who made that up is full of it and would be creating many problems for them down the line like if they ever decided to go back to China for a visit. I agree with Phil. What would happen if the immigration officer sees one signature on her passport and a totally different one on her ID card??? I think it's a mistake to use anything other than the signature she has on her passport and has used all her life.

 

I am also a CA licensed real estate agent and I sold a hotel to 3 guys from India and there was no way you can read any part of their signature as English letters. Their signatures and initials were consistent and I'm sure that the only requirement for your signature on a legal contract is that your signature, however it may look, is in fact your true signature, and of course is the same signature as witnessed by the notary who affirmed it as such.

 

True, our SO's have to adapt to living in America, but your signature is yours and shouldn't change just because you move to another country.

 

just my 2 yuan . . . .

Edited November 17, 2005 by cosmiclobster (see edit history)

[frank1538]

Jingwen has gone the other way. She signs her name in pinyin. It's kinda funny watching her sign documents, getting about halfway through, then stopping, trying to remember the spelling, then continuing. And, one last thing. It's a good thing signatures don't have to be legible.

 

By the same token, you ought to see the look on her face when I try to write her name in Chinese. It's all she can do to keep from busting a gut.

[david_dawei]

I guess I don't get it...

 

She should be signing in pinyin/english... I think she is doing herself a dis-service to use chinese signature which no one will recognized compared to a PRINT YOUR NAME line.

 

My SO started by simply printing her name in pinyin as her signature.. over the course of a few weeks, she got more cursive.

[frank1538]

...I think she is doing herself a dis-service to use chinese signature which no one will recognized compared to a PRINT YOUR NAME line.

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Since when are most signatures legible? I dare say that "X" is probably the only signature I've seen that I can actually read.

[warpedbored]

My wife signs her name in English. Since she has taken my last name anyway it wouldn't make sense to sign it in Chinese. She doesn't think it's a big deal. She has gone back to China to visit family and has had no problem going or coming due to different last names or signatures on her passport and green card. Regardless she should sign her name the same way all the time and if her DL isn'tthe same as the bank account it could cause her problems writing or cashing checks.

[Cerberus]

Cerberus: There is no "software on the little machine that records signatures and doesn't recognize Chinese characters" in CA.

The DMV software takes a picture of her "real, original and true" signature, stores it in their database as a graphic file and prints it on her ID card. The pea brain DMV clerk who made that up is full of it and would be creating many problems for them down the line like if they ever decided to go back to China for a visit. I agree with Phil. What would happen if the immigration officer sees one signature on her passport and a totally different one on her ID card??? I think it's a mistake to use anything other than the signature she has on her passport and has used all her life.

 

I am also a CA licensed real estate agent and I sold a hotel to 3 guys from India and there was no way you can read any part of their signature as English letters. Their signatures and initials were consistent and I'm sure that the only requirement for your signature on a legal contract is that your signature, however it may look, is in fact your true signature, and of course is the same signature as witnessed by the notary who affirmed it as such.

 

True, our SO's have to adapt to living in America, but your signature is yours and shouldn't change just because you move to another country.

 

just my 2 yuan . . . .

169522[/snapback]

Cosmic,

 

I will apologize for my misuse of the term of software. The appropriate term is hardware. Generally, the programs are set up under C++ programming. There are two types. One is akin to the facial recognition systems used in airports, which digitalize facial features, create a “map”, which in turn is then, reduced via to mathematical equations (e.g. 010101110) then forwarded for storage and/or future use in a database. The second type is the same type of programming but uses OCR. (Optical character recognition) This works using software that computers use to capture scanned text documents. The images are then converted to codes same as above example. This results in images formed into codes such as ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange). I should point out that programming is quite often used to prevent spamming on websites and Yahoo is a very good example. Ever see the letters that are printed on the bottm that you need to enter? They are going through this identical programming. Just try to enter a Chinese signature here! Ask yourself why there are no Chinese characters here? Werte yoiu aware that China websites have you do the same process in China, and they also used Romanized letters? NOT Chinese! They have the same identical hardware programming and recognition systems.

 

For programming there is a multitude of both different software applications, but the primary systems are generally programmed into the server hardware when it is being designed.

 

What is the upshot of this simplified, but complicated programming? The systems require huge servers to maintain the stored information for input, retrieval and use. Try to imagine the city of Los Angeles. How many people in this culturally diverse city use true Romanized spelling in their signatures? How many don’t? Lets see Korean, Japanese, Cambodian, Laotians, Thai, Vietnam, Indonesian, Malaysia, Farsi (middle East), and just so we don’t forget of course CHINESE! Can you imagine the size of the storage base for the state of California? There isn’t any diversity in New York City, with the same problem is there? Yet we still have another 49 states to go. Think of Trigg’s home state of Tennessee! There are literally millions of Chinese immigrating there every year. They need a huge database to insure that all immigrants can sign their native signatures. (Sorry Trigg, I just couldn’t resist!) Otherwise, they might forget they were Chinese, right?

 

Your question, why not use the same signature on her passport. You are dealing with a diplomatic problem, not a legal one. The passport signature will be recognized on both sides of the water. US Customs, scan the Passport to check problems, holds, etc on it. They match the printed name (On both Chinese and US Passports, I might add) US isn’t looking at her signature. They are matching the data received via computer, with printed name and finally to the photograph on the passport. In China it goes the same identical way except they will look at the signature more, because they can actually read pudonghua. I should point out that the majority of Customs agents don’t read Chinese, so a Chinese name in native signature is a small beautiful painting on a passport.

 

I like this comment you made though and it has so much merit:

“…True, our SO's have to adapt to living in America, but your signature is yours and shouldn't change just because you move to another country…”

 

I had to adapt while purchasing property in Sanya and Chengdu. I use my Chinese signature, went on the paperwork with my seal. When in Rome, do as Romans! When in China, do as Chinese do! Just because I signed my name in Chinese means that I‘m turning into a Chinese gentleman! Although, lately I have been having a craving for more Sichuan mapodofu and congee! Maybe I did change!

 

What is the upshot of this lengthy and excessive diatribe? IMHO, isn’t Life complicated enough? Why try to complicate it even more? Please try a poll. I will wager that approximately 80% plus Chinese SOs are already doing exactly what Frank, warpedboard and Yin are doing. That’s why I said, "Why fight City Hall?" Just use both and stop rocking the boat so much. She is still a proud Chinese wife that you love. Nothing has changed. Isn’t this far simpler than running around gathering notarized statements? Didn’t you, and I and all members of this board have enough notarized CRAP with USCIS 129s, 130s and AOSs to last a lifetime? I know that I have!

 

I still stand by what I said before. There is one quote that I remember, I just can't remember the author; "Don’t make life complicated it gets that way all by itself!

 

Cerberus

[Phil & Ningning]

What is the upshot of this lengthy and excessive diatribe?  IMHO, isn’t Life complicated enough?  Why try to complicate it even more?  Please try a poll.  I will wager that approximately 80% plus Chinese SOs are already doing exactly what Frank, warpedboard and Yin are doing.  That’s why I said, "Why fight City Hall?"  Just use both and stop rocking the boat so much. She is still a proud Chinese wife that you love.  Nothing has changed.  Isn’t this far simpler than running around gathering notarized statements?  Didn’t you, and I and all members of this board have enough notarized CRAP with USCIS 129s, 130s and AOSs to last a lifetime?  I know that I have!

 

I still stand by what I said before.  There is one quote that I remember, I just can't remember the author;  "Don’t make life complicated it gets that way all by itself! 

 

Cerberus

169639[/snapback]

Making this simple is what I want to do. I care about not having problems down the road and I could not care any less if it is more complicated for the DMV or anyone else. Furthermore, the things that Frank, Carl, and others are doing is what is best in their own circumstances but may not be best for everybody. If all our cases were exactly the same and approached in the same way by all of us, then maybe you would have a valid point.

 

I have decided the best way to approach this minor bump is to go to another DMV in a nearby city that has a very large Chinese population and ask them to let her re-sign there. The worst case scenario I can foresee is having to pay another application fee, but even that would be a small price to fix what I percieve as a very long-lasting thorn in our side.

[cosmiclobster]

Cerberus: You make some good points, but I beg to differ with you on 2 of them.

First, here is some of my background: I have been an Electronic Tech since my teens and got my first PC, a Commodore 64, in 1979. I am the Technical Operations Manager of a company that builds traffic flow control cameras, video servers and wireless video, data and internet equipment. I am proficient in a dozen computer languages and have had my own webpages for many years, cosmiclobster.com (although I am neglecting them now that Amy is here) and my real estate webpage, ConejoProperties.com (IN CASE ANYBODY HERE WANTS TO BUY OR SELL A HOUSE IN CA)(yes, it's a cheap plug but I need to offset the cost of maintaining my RE license!! That being said . . . .

 

I very seriously doubt that the DMV uses any kind of OCR software to interperate someones signature to store it as ASCII characters. There are way to many people with indistingusable signatures for OCR to be effective or even slightly accurate. As to the size of the database required, think about this. They have your name and all of your vital info already in their database as ASCII characters. They already have a color picture of you and your fingerprint stored in their database, and both of these are substantially bigger file sizes than a 2 color (black and white) gif or jpeg of a signature. I submit that your signature is probably a 5 or 10K gif at best and your picture and fingerprint are probably 250K to 500K sitting somewhere in a database of giga or terabytes.

 

As for the passport, the US side scans the barcode and looks at the picture. China at least enters the passport number into their system and looks at the picture. Both sides probably look at the forms you submitted to see if the signatures match. I stand firm on the supposition that the signature in whatever form or language should be consistent from document to document - passport to ID.

Carl and others have said they have their SO using Roman characters and it wasn't a problem so I will let this argument rest in that it could go either way. 60 minutes did a feature a long time ago about signatures on checks. They wrote checks and signed them mickey mouse and donald duck and the checks got deposited and funds drawn against them every time with no problem!

You ask why make life more complicated? I think having 2 different signatures can complicate your life if a conflict were to arise. Dont mean to be contrary here, again, just my 2 yuan.

 

Phil: If you are still awake after this, here is an idea. Take her current license and damage it slightly. Spill ink on part of it and say your magic marker unloaded on it. Cut part of it off and say it got accidentally cut in a paper cutter. Put some alcohol on the mag stripe on the back of the license and the mag stripe will come off. If you have a damaged license that is still good enough to verify her identity, they will give you the option of issuing another one that was the same as the old one or you can pay a few more $ and get one with a new picture and I think a new signature. I know for certain you can get an updated picture but I would verify with them the part about the new signature before you destroy her current ID

Edited November 18, 2005 by cosmiclobster (see edit history)

[Cerberus]

Cosmic,

 

I will again disagree with you slightly. I meant no insult to you programming capabilities or the stance that you take. Differing opinions are always necessary in order to be fully informed of an issue. If I did insult you, then I would be remiss in not apologizing. That being said…

 

OCR is the largest system that is used. A perfect example is the United States Post office. Think of the letters that are handwritten by users of the USPS system. A letter that has been handwritten (with no barcode) are placed for processing with thousands more and run through an OCR processing machine. Some optical recognition occurs and the computer will spray a barcode on the bottom of the letter, that everybody has seen and wonders why and where it came from. Many others that it can’t read are imaged, retained in a data bank. These images are then forwarded to hand operators that see the image, and manually reenter the appropriate data. This information is then returned to the Postal Servicing unit, where it is reentered simultaneously with the new data that was forwarded from the hand operators. Letter are reentered and then sprayed with the new processing bar code.

 

With this being said, we were talking about or SOs using their native language for signatures. Try to image sending a letter say from LA, Calif. to Dave in Amherst, MA. Amy states that she wants to use her native language on the address. She writes it out and mails it. The letter enters this system and the computer doesn’t recognize the bit map. It is forwarded to hand operators, to read. They don’t recognize the language either. They have to find someone to read the native language to be able to “special process” Amy’s letter. The DMV is working on the same principle only on a lesser scale. There are few office that would have the capability of doing this on site. The only exceptions could possible be Los Angeles or San Francisco Chinatown offices, Malpitas, CA, New York, etc, you get the idea. These offices are larger, and have more native Chinese patrons. I’m not for sure since I have never worked in any of them. However, I was a Supervisor in the Portland Processing and Distribution Center in Oregon. We would have at least 25 to 50 letters like this daily, with the same circumstances.

 

Perhaps Amy could try and send a letter with pure Chinese on the front as compared to a letter with English n the front and time them. You will see the different delivery times immediately. The OCR is a prime example of this delay. The upshot is, even though she has used English on the front, she is still a beautiful self respecting Chinese woman.

 

The entire upshot and then I will drop after this, is this point. Amy (as an example) probably writes her letters in English, or when sending to China in both languages. Has her postal privileges been revoked or has Newman (Mailman from Seinfeld TV Show) come to investigate her yet? Same thing with a signature. Two of my Korean ex-wives had two signatures and neither has had any problems in the least. This also included passports and respective applications. If some did ask they stated they preferred t use the native language and this was acceptable in some cases ands some not.

 

In regard to checks they are using the bank routing numbers and barcodes, or so I have been told. The signature is a check if an issue ever arises. If you signed you name Charles Manson, and that is the signature on record, the bank will process the check as Charles Manson, Donald Duck, Abraham Lincoln or whatever.

 

I think that forum has been informed enough of this subject don’t you? The choice must be up to the individual. If they wish to fight “City Hall,” then this is their prerogative. Personally, I wish to have Yin and my wife to continue wirth as little complications as possibl;e. As I sated I’ve had enough of doing paperwork, notarized statements, etc to last a lifetime.

 

By the way, I visited both of your sites. A pin striped Tuxedo? On a more serious note, do you offer discounts to CFL members when in Calif? Say about a $75,000, discount. I will be having this problem in about 6 months when I return to San Diego!

 

Take care my friend and I wish Amy and yourself well.

 

Dave

[BuffaloPaul]

Since Jenny has taken my last name, she has no way to write it in Chinese. She also doesn't seem to be able to write cursively, so she just prints her name. Doesn't seem to be an issue. She knows who she is.