weiaijiayou

Interesting you mentioned that clothes are more expensive in the U.S. If you compare Chinese department store prices with U.S retail chains such as Sears, JCpenny, Kohls, etc., U.S. prices are comparable if not cheaper than Chinese. Last year I went to China trying to buy a pair of shoes and found out the prices there way too expensive. Of course, if you took your wife to an upscale clothing store in your state, then it is a different story. I agree, but who buys from department stores in China? My wife had a similar perspective when she came to the US: didn't like the styles as much here, and prices were much higher than where she would normally shop in China (e.g., small markets with stalls like you can find in wudaokou in beijing). I assume this is the type of place Robert's wife was comparing to...

Sounds like you¡¯re doing a great job understanding her family¡¯s perspective and concerns. It seems like her family is similar to my wife¡¯s: the older generation on the traditional/conservative side, but ultimately willing to bend and test new waters when their kids have made up their minds on something. My brother-in-law also had a marriage partner arranged for him, but he refused to go through with it, instead ultimately marrying a girl he met and fell in love with on his own. I would guess that up to this point your wife¡¯s family has been keeping you under wraps at her sister or brother¡¯s house or some other non-central location? I remember when my wife and I were dating, her mom used to tell people I was from Xinjiang to avoid some of the negative implications of dating a westerner. At that time, me going to their house and all the neighbors seeing their daughter bringing an American guy home would have been out of the question. No sweat about her dad not shaking your hand. I¡¯m picturing him as similar to my father-in-law, who has a very detached, impersonal, and direct style of relating to people. I remember the first time I met him. He was just arriving at my brother-in-law¡¯s and my wife and I went downstairs to meet him. My wife had somewhere to go, so after a very brief introduction, she left the two of us alone together -- two introverts standing there in the courtyard. After a few curt exchanges on obvious talking-points (¡°How tall are you?¡± ¡°Nice weather lately.¡± ¡°Want a cigarette?¡±), we were just standing there, waiting. The time dragged on, and I started thinking, ¡°Does he already dislike me or what?¡± He didn¡¯t appear to have the slightest bit of interest in me whatsoever. After about 15 minutes, a little lady who lived in the building approached us inquisitively. ¡°Who is he?¡± the lady said in a somewhat nosy way. ¡°Is he ¡®hua ren¡¯? Where is he from?¡± I looked over at my father-in-law as he just stood there, not reacting to the woman in any way. He took a deep, patient drag off of his cigarette, in no rush to answer any of her questions. Finally, ¡°My daughter¡¯s friend¡± is all he ever said to the lady, after an anxious wait. Eventually the woman just walked away, and the exchange left me with the realization: My goodness, this guy actually voluntarily spoke to me! After I understood that he absolutely did not talk when he didn¡¯t want to, the few brief comments he had made to me about the weather and my height now seemed like a tremendous gift and a very good sign.

One more thing for meeting her family, if you see this in time. It's a custom that when you see them you should address them in terms of their relationship to you (i.e., to your fiancee). Mom, Dad, Brother, Sister, Aunt, Uncle... they'll probably all want to immediately hear you call them by their relation to you. As for drinking, if you go out with "just the guys" I wouldn't shy away at all. It can be a fun and very interesting bonding experience to watch your brother-in-law or cousin rising steadily in his happiness meter if for no other reason than the sheer pleasure of sitting with you and partaking the baijiu...

¿Éϧ it's a shame...

Looks like a very interesting site. I was just looking at the section on "attraction to foreign men" and how they said they now needed to temper their previous assertion that Chinese women had a near ubiquitous preference for foreign men over Chinese men. Ay corumba... For how long, a month into their first relationship with one?

Really? Chinese prostitutes mostly are making money to send home, not for drugs? ÎÒ²»ÊÇ»³ÒÉÄ㣬ֻÊǾõµÃºÜ³Ô¾ª¡£¡£¡£ÄÇËýÃǵĸ¸Ä¸µÜµÜÃÃÃÃÖªµÀËýÃÇÔÚ³ÇÊÐÔÚ×öʲô¹¤×÷Âð£¿

These are really good points. There doesn't seem to be much legal recourse for the little guy in China when companies are colluding with government. The thing with Jialefu sounds despicable. If it's true, then I'm sad to say I've shopped there quite a bit when in China. In America we used to have companies do some crazy things to their workers -- for example, letting them work all day in close contact with materials that the company knew would eventually kill them. In many cases they got sued, and work conditions improved (let alone actually paying workers for what they produced or did).

It was sort of the opposite for us -- today I did our taxes, and since Jing had never actually looked at one of my paychecks to see all the taxes, she saw our refund as a sudden and unexpected cash windfall!

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Good discussion. I would add one other general item that I believe makes many Americans' blood boil but that most Chinese are comfortable with: this is what Chinese call ÓÞÃñÕþ²ß -- a policy where, if some information is disruptive to social stability or otherwise gratuitously negative, it is not discussed or reported. Most Americans would obviously see this kind of policy as uniformly negative, even repressive. But if you talk to a Chinese person you'll probably find that they see it as a rather positive thing. And if you dwell on it for any length of time, you should also be able to see some of its benefits -- if not in America then at least given the circumstances and realities of China.

I think this is where many people aspiring to learn mandarin go wrong: instead of speaking in order to learn it, they learn it in order to speak it. In this way ¡°speaking mandarin¡± is set up as an elusive goal or end-state instead of something you actually do. I feel like this is often the thought process engendered by learning language in a classroom. Unfortunately, most American people don't have ready access to a native mandarin speaker, so taking classes or listening to CDs are about the only options. I'd suggest perhaps majoring in something potentially more lucrative (or going for your MBA) and minoring in Chinese. Since you¡¯re married to a Chinese person, you have the potential to turn your home into an interactive Chinese environment. In terms of speed of learning, comprehension, and expression, you'll leap and bound over people majoring in Chinese in school. As for learning to read (and to write using a computer) -- do it. But learning to write with a pen or pencil? Beyond the basics I don¡¯t see this as much more than cultural enrichment. It¡¯s not going to help you function any better in 99.99% of situations, but it will absorb an unbelievable amount of your time. I¡¯d focus on (1) interaction in spoken language and (2) reading ¨C better returns on your investment of time.

One other option is to get a "tracfone" for test messaging. Using it for calling probably won't be your cheapest option, but international text messages are the same as domestic ones: 1 text message uses 1/3 of a minute.

Does getting the Evolution of letter notarized at GUZ carry more "weight" than getting it notarized here in the US ? Just want to have everything done correctly Dan Doubt it. But questions asked at ACH usually result in the VO entering notes into your file.

I remember a similar feeling. Take Carl's (Warpedbored) advice and divide up the process into two steps. As you're on each step, make simple lists of the documents and evidence you will be gathering, and then start getting it. Step 2 (consulate) is more intensive, especially if you didn't "front load," but I don't think it's nearly as overwhelming as it seems at the outset. You'll figure it out and get through just fine. I believe I did "Front Load" initial I-130 was about 8lbs with 4" of documents, proof of relationship, deed to house, initial Evolution of Relationship Letter, 80 photos of us together, emails, phone bills, chat sessions, utility bills and all I-130 required documents. So I think I did do the "Front Loading" as it was suggested here. About the "EOR" letter, can we give another one, updated version at the interview? if so when can she give it to them? Dan You can give an updated version of your EOR letter to your spouse, and she can then hand it to the VO with her passport (and your passport, if you accompany her to Guangzhou) at the start of the interview. The VO sometimes reads the letter and sometimes doesn't. The VO for my wife's interview read ours.

I remember a similar feeling. Take Carl's (Warpedbored) advice and divide up the process into two steps. As you're on each step, make simple lists of the documents and evidence you will be gathering, and then start getting it. Step 2 (consulate) is more intensive, especially if you didn't "front load," but I don't think it's nearly as overwhelming as it seems at the outset. You'll figure it out and get through just fine.

But yes, more to the point of your post: I think you're totally right in that the financial "cushion" idea really only applies to personal financial risk taking.

Maybe this is in their personal life. Having worked with the factory operators and engineers for over 3 years I would not say the Chinese are risk takers. If they can't CYA or push it up to the next level for a decision than nothing gets done. Trying to encourage team building and working across departments and at the same co-worker level can sometimes be really frustrating. If you don't have the correct "power" title you can find it a long battle to lead by example. Much different than in the States. I think you're pointing out an important caveat that I should have mentioned: the questions on risk taking were purely financial and had no social context. For example, "Choose between receiving a fixed sum of $400 or flipping a coin and receiving either $2,000 or $0 depending on the outcome." If the questions were made to have a social element -- e.g., "Choose between project A, with a sure return of $50,000 and which your boss weakly prefers, or project B, with a distribution of possible outcomes from $0 to $200,000" -- I think Chinese people would be even more adverse to the risky option than Americans. In other words, perhaps Chinese culture and recent economic experiences are promoting financial risk seeking, but such orientations haven't really spread to social risk taking. In a way, this combination of financial risk seeking and social risk avoidance makes a lot of sense in a collectivist culture. Social ties can act as a "cushion" that softens the blow of a financial risk that turns out badly (this was the researchers' idea), but, on the other side of the coin, collectivism promotes social conservatism (i.e., the valuing of social norms). In another interesting strand of this research, Americans and Chinese were asked to predict how people from each country would tend to answer the financial risk questions. Overall, people from both countries thought that the Americans would answer in a more risk seeking way than the Chinese, which is of course the opposite of what happened.

I've seen some interesting studies comparing Chinese and Americans in the realm of risk taking. First, it was observed that Chinese people tend to be more risk seeking, on average, than Americans. Exploring this, a few researchers took large samples of proverbs from both languages and had people from both countries rate them in terms of whether they seemed to advocate risk seeking or risk avoidance. It turns out that Chinese proverbs tend to encourage risk-taking (e.g., "shibai shi chenggong zhi mu", "failure is the mother of success") more so than English ones, which more often seem to encourage taking the safe option (e.g., "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush"). I believe the researchers also speculated that Chinese financial risk taking is bolstered by their greater reliance on social networks for financial support.

It seems similar in severity and spread to regular flu. I usually don't get the vaccine for ordinary flu, and I didn't get the one for H1N1. Then, this year my wife and I both came down with seasonal flu. As we were in bed -- laid up for almost an entire week -- we promised ourselves that next year we'd get vaccinated. It was the first time I had the flu in a very long time, and I guess I'd forgotten how unpleasant the experience really can be -- no energy whatsoever, drenching the bed in sweat, etc. My wife claims that this was the first time she ever had the flu, and she just couldn't believe how bad it felt. It seemed like every few hours she would ask, "Do you think we might have swine flu?" But as a whole, in China I'd be more worried about sinuses and throat. When I get sick there, it almost always involves these membranes getting inflamed, probably in part because of the pollution and prevalence of smoking.

Yes, this was exactly the kind of lead I was looking for... Thanks.

More excellent points and issues to consider... Thanks Kyle.

Thanks for the list. We had been looking at a similar one last night in the book the government mails to new green card holders. When we came across "jury duty," I said it was usually looked at more as an obligation than a privilege, but she replied enthusiastically that she'd love the chance to help punish criminals. It seemed to me that she was envisioning casting the final, damning vote in the death penalty case of some twisted sicko...

In the past day, my wife decided that it would be nice for her to have US citizenship and a US passport. When I pressed her on it, she laughed and admitted that her desire for the passport was, at least in part, because it would be fashionable in China, almost like a status symbol. She had been discussing with Chinese friends about how the Chinese government gives more rights to ¡®huaqiao¡¯ or Chinese with foreign citizenship. When asked, though, she couldn¡¯t name any of the specific benefits for overseas Chinese returning to China. Despite this, she really seems intent about getting citizenship (at least right now), and this has made me want to learn more about the pros and cons. Up front, I need to say that my main questions about her getting US citizenship revolve around the fact that we will be returning to China to live permanently at some point during the next several years. First, to me, the positive aspect of citizenship would be that, while we¡¯re living in China, my wife would be able to return freely to the US, a condition she deems very important because she wants to be able to see our family in the US. Based on my currently limited understanding, if we just try to retain her green card while in China, she would need to return to the US on a regular basis and for substantial periods of time, and she could be denied entry if the customs and border people decide that she appears to have abandoned the green card. If that were to happen, I believe that, in order for her to go back to the US, we would then have to apply for a K-3 visa that would give her multiple entries into the US for a limited period of time (e.g., a year? 2 years?). For those of you who know more about these aspects of green cards and visas, I would really appreciate it if you could provide any feedback on the accuracy of what I¡¯ve just said. I¡¯m also interested in all of your input as far as what benefits and privileges we may lose while in China if my wife does decide to become a US citizen. For example, as a USC, she would be required to apply for visas in order to return to and stay in China, correct? Correspondingly, I would no longer be able to use our marriage to apply for a tourist visa that authorizes a year-long stay in China, right? Finally, I¡¯m also wondering how her holding US citizenship would affect our ability to buy a home in China, make investments, or run a business. As I understand it now, Chinese citizens are less restricted in these areas, and thus, if she maintains her Chinese citizenship, our home and whatever Chinese business dealings we might want to engage in can operate through her. On the other side of the spectrum, will there be any benefits that my wife will be able to obtain in China as a holder of US citizenship that she does not have now, as a Chinese citizen (or that she would not be able to derive through me, as her husband)? The whole thing right now is making both of our heads hurt. Any comments, opinions, facts, experiences, etc., are all welcome. Some more personal stuff: Originally our decision about all this was easy. Before we started this whole visa process, my wife¡¯s mom had been very concerned about my wife having to apply for a visa to return to China. Since this seemed to be such a major issue for her, my wife and I decided that we should just get the green card, make the most of it while we needed to be in the US, and if it was ever deemed ¡°abandoned¡± we would deal with those issues when it came time. I assured her mom: ¡°Don¡¯t worry, she will always be a Chinese citizen, and she can always come back to China without any applications or paperwork.¡± But last night, after my wife and I talked about citizenship and she saw that my opinion about becoming a USC was at best lukewarm, my wife went into the other room. After a few minutes I heard the phone dialing and then heard my wife¡¯s thick Henan accent and the familiar ¡®die?¡¯ as her dad answered the phone. Once her mom was on, I could hear her making some small-talk and then, after a momentary pause in the conversation, she started to broach this issue with her mom. I jumped off the couch and shot into the room, my wife laughing as I accused her of secretly trying to have all of her points heard without her mom hearing my side, too. But alas, during the past year my wife has been in the US, her mom¡¯s natural sternness and skepticism toward my wife¡¯s plans has been changing, her confidence in her daughter growing, and soon she was agreeing that maybe this US citizenship idea could be worth considering. I was kind of blown away because my wife's mom is an extremely traditional woman and very, very ¡®ai guo.¡¯ But now she may be willing to accept the idea of US citizenship for her daughter, depending on what would be gained or lost in terms of status, opportunities, obstacles, etc. So now I¡¯m just interested in all of you guys¡¯ and girls¡¯ input, experience, and knowledge.

Thanks for posting the story in more detail as it sheds light on what likely happened concerning your wife's simplified b-2 visa application (although it raises questions about why she supposedly also got a new passport). Here¡¯s something you posted a few months ago about how you met your wife: (this was in a thread Michael-Sean started about when his wife should get her physical) In other words, it sounds to me like your wife's b-2 visa that she obtained very quickly and with little hassle was not her first one, in which case -- yes, the process will be much, much easier and faster since she followed the conditions of her first one. This would be something very convenient for you to leave out of your protestations about the role guanxi played in the ease and speed of the application. An excerpt from one of Kyle's posts about applying for b-2 visas confirms these things... Note: The second and third b-2 visa applications of Kyle's Jingjing are very much how you described your wife's, but Kyle and Jingjing, to my knowledge, do not claim they pulled any strings in the embassy. Once again, push on the story and it tumbles over...

I never called you a liar. For example, I don't doubt that you believed everything you wrote about the sex scandal when you wrote it. But when it was pushed we found out that the confidence with which you made statements was out of line with the accuracy of what you remembered and wrote. The story about a 2-week passport and visa issuance, to me, has the same ring of something that sounds inaccurate, misremembered, or exaggerated (I never said this was intentional). I don't feel I'm in a corner and I haven't attacked anything about you. I've only questioned some of your claims and pointed out some of the times you've made broad negative insinuations about me (e.g., I don't understand how anything works, "even I" should understand something, etc.). Instead of arguing, I don't know why you haven't just gone, found the passport, and looked at the passport issue date and visa issue date. If even those two dates are less than two weeks apart (i.e., not even considering the time it took to print and issue the passport), then I'll concede the point and say you were right in your confidence about her case.