Mick

I could tell you many spitting stories I encountered in my five years living in China. What I have noticed, however, is there now seems to be more of it going on here in the States as well. I don't know if this is a southern things or it is nationwide. But I have noticed far more lugie tossing here in good old USA than when I moved to China from Miami back in 97. Anyone else notice this?

84.85 percent.

Wow, Dan - looks like a really nice service for the large expat community in Lianyang and Shanghai. There are 5300 expats in Lianyang and way more in Shanghai proper. I think this can be a very positive thing in that it is stated that one of the goals is to bring the cultures together. I recall clearly my first year in China, spent in Hefei, Anhui, prior to moving to Guangdong for the next four years, was just the opposite. The Party at the school where I taught did everything they could to keep the foreign teachers isolated, except for educational activities. They did everything imaginable (including putting an eletronic listening device under my bed) in an attempt to break up the relationship between Li and myself. It got to be ridiculous after awhile, almost laughable. It is the main reason we moved after the first year. Hefei is better I hear, but remains very conservative and the Party is still strong. Something like this would be unheard of there, unless it was done for "show" and was mere window dressing. I hope this things works very well and spreads. It will make living in China easier for many expats.

I would strongly encourage you to be very direct with your attorney. Make sure he or she fully understands that dealing with Guangzhou is different than dealing with other countries. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but my friend, that's the way it is. Over my near ten years on this board I have seen repeated examples of attorney errors screwing people up. Ask your attorney how many cases he or she has taken through the process in Guangzhou. Don't be timid here - you need someone who knows what they are doing. Good luck and welcome to Candle!

Kim, I have visited the place in Guangzhou you spoke of - the downtown park. Also, spent the day at the mausoleum in Nanjing. It is really a huge, sprawling place. Oddly enough, on the day I visited there, George Bush (not Dubya, his Dad) also was there. Saw him from a great distance. The Chinese hold the elder Bush in generally high regard it seems - maybe dating back to the days he was Ambassador.

A big amen to that, Kim. I hated the Nixon/Kissinger administration with a passion, mostly due to the lies they told about bombing Cambodia, etc. Yet in retrospect, Kissinger proved to be a valuable player in the thawing of Sino/US relations - heck he was the main player and from our side, maybe the only player. When I lived in China, most of the people I knew held Nixon in high regard. Some knew about Kissinger's role, but it was mostly Nixon they gave credit to. I think Nixon mostly followed Kissinger's lead. Remember Ping Pong Diplomacy?

Charles raised an excellent point about insurance. Whenever you move groups of people over long distance, there is always the risk of something unexpected happening. Anything from accidents associated with transportation (planes, buses, etc.), hotel fires, food poisoning, slips and falls, - the list is endless. I am sure insurance for liability is available, but it is going to be expensive. Also, the early costs associated with a venture like this are going to be fairly high. The primary cause of small business failure is lack of adequate start-up capitalization. I don't mean to throw a damper on anything here, but you need to be very aware of how much this is going to cost and how long it will be before you turn a profit.

Wow, you do live down south a ways. I think I have been through Evergreen on my way to Mobile. We have several members who trained down at Ft. Rucker, which I guess is a little southeast of where you live. Our former fearless leader Donahso for one and Tsap Seui for another. On another note, seems we had no fall or winter down here this year - went straight from summer to spring. When you have killer tornados in January, it makes ya wonder.

Greetings bamaguy and welcome to Candle by the way. Just curious, do you live in Alabama or are you just a fan of the Tide? I ask this cause I wuz born in Alabama and we live now in what I call Tennerbama, as the state line runs right down Main Street of our little hamlet.

Thanks so much, Dan. I'll pass this on to Li. Like I said earlier, she was especially moved by the painting. Again, thanks for your leg work.

Really fascinating painting, Dan. I showed to Li and she was really taken by it. Wants to find a way to get a copy of it. Any ideas?

Looking great, Carl. Keep posting pics of your progress. It is fascinating to watch this process unfold.

We were in a similar situation as you, albeit a long time ago (we filed paperwork in 2001 and moved back to the States in March, 2003). At that time, things were much different but a few things are still the same. The income requirements were an issue for us as I had been living and working in China five years and had no US income for three years prior to filing the paperwork. I owned property which brought my assets to a level above what was initially requires, along with savings. Still, not taking any chances, I obtained a co-sponsor and we sailed through without an issue as far as income was concerned. Our problems came from being stuck in the Black Hole limbo that gave birth to this website, but that is another story. I suspect your income level for that year you have been in China is below the level requireed for reporting ( (I think Randy said it was around $19,000). It may be wise to consider getting a co-sponsor if your income doesn't meet the standards. Back when we filed we had to submit the last three years tax returns. I did not have them as I was far below the reporting requirement. I wrote a letter explaining this and sent in the returns from my joint sponsor. As I said, we had no problems from a financial standpoint. Things may be different now and folks like Randy W. and dnoblitt, along with warpedbored, are more up to speed on the current regs. Hope you have much success in the visa process.

Ditto!! Thanks ya cuzzins Tsap and Newday. I got a fire in the wood stove, supper ready to eat, and the house clean. Certainly there is sumthin I fergot. Did you remember to clean under thuh terlet seat and hose thuh terbakky stains offin thuh frunt porch? Oh, and I almost plum fergot ---- don't ferget to put away the inflatable critters.

David: Don't be so sure about the mythical Santa, either.According to the quantum physicists, old Saint Nick may have been way ahead of his time. He makes all those deliveries in one night by bending space and time, and traveling about using wormholes. Who woulda thunk it? A Star Trek Santa. I betcha Spock knew about this all along.

I can relate to your situation as it mirrors the one my wife and I were in, albeit many, many years ago. I was living and working in China (starting in 1997) and we met shortly after my arrival. We fell in love and decided to spend the rest of our lives together. We began exploring various options. At that time, Li had no interest in immigrating and, to be honest, I loved my work in China, loved living there, and we had no interest in obtaining a visa at that time. We would have liked for her to be able to go for a visit with me, but in those days, a visitors visa was damn near impossible, especially for someone as young as she was (25 at the time). So we just stayed put. We finally applied for visa in 2001 (sent in initial paperwork two weeks before 9/11). Bad timing, indeed. Long story short, it took us until March 2003 to have visa in hand. Things had become very dicey by then as we lived in Guangdong, near Ground Zero of the SARS epidemic. Any specifics I could give you regarding the visa process we endured would be very dated and irrelevant by now. Dan has given you a very good analysis of the options and he is one of the most knowledgable individuals I know when it comes to these matters. You can take what he says to the bank. I wish you much happiness and future success in whatever you decide. BTW - If you toss in a prostate exam, what you said about the root canal, colonoscopy, and IRS audit pretty much sums it up.

Have a great birthday, Dan! You da man!!!

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" is a great book. Some of the photos are especially graphic, but they give a good impression of what went on. I also want to mention that Nanjing suffered greatly, more than many other places I suspect, but other nearby cities felt the same force of the Japanese war boot. On down the river, cities like Ma'an Shan and Wuhu were also targeted for bombing and occupation. The same sort of horrors went on there, but often you don't hear so much about it. In Anhui, Wu Wei and Chao Hu (by the big lake of the same name) also suffered. Li's family is from this area. The capital of Anhui, Hefei, (where I lived for my first year in China and where Li and I met and fell in love) has small memorial sites as well. I hope some day the Japanese admit what happened and formally apologize. True healing will be impossible until that happens.

Will put the movie on my to watch list as well. I have visited the museum you spoke of and found it a very moving experience. My wife's family, from Anhui and Jiangsu, suffered greatly under the Japanese, especially Li's grandmother. I also recommend the book "The Rape of Nanking," by Iris Chang.

Have a great birthday and wishes for much happiness now and in the years to come!

I'm having a difficult time finding the reference so far. It was about 10 years ago that the Dalai Lama said in an interview that he regretted inviting the Chinese into Tibet, because he was young and too excited about the promise of Communism. Now most of the articles I can find don't even mention the 17-point agreement he signed. Those that do always put it in the context of being a forced agreement. While that actually makes sense, I can't help but feel that history has been scrubbed on this topic to leave an intended impression. It is easy to find many articles about the Dalai Lama expressing his belief in Communism...and then easy to find other hagriography-ish articles that claim those are all PRC propaganda. My understanding was that the Dalai Lama did fall for the glittering "promise" of Marxist Socialism/Communism, and asked the PRC to come in and help his country develop. But then things when the Communists started acting like totalitarians always do, and deeply regretted his naivety. I'll keep searching, but I'm just not sure I can find actual proof. Thanks for the effort in tracking down sources regarding the Dalai Lama asking the Chinese in. Without a doubt, the history is slanted one way or the other, depending on who is telling the story. I am trying to track down how old the Dalai Lama would have been in 1950. He was fairly young I am sure. I think he remained in Llasa until 1959, and then fled to India. Don't waste any time trying to track down the source. I was just curious as I had never heard that point made before. And Randy, thanks for your posted link. It adds to the perspective and in any case, it seems the Chinese were going to come in, invited or not. *** Note: Just found out the Dalai Lama was born in July 1935, which would have made him 15 in 1950. I wonder to what depth he might have understood Communism at such a tender age??? Also, at age 15 was he actually "in control" of the country, or was there a proxy in charge until he came of age?

A Mafan - as usual, your analysis of an issue is thorough and well-reasoned. One thing, however, I wasn't aware of and maybe you can enlighten me a bit. You mentioned that the Dalai Lama invited the PRC in. I wasn't aware of that. And please understand, I am not arguing the point here. I am just seeking clarification. When did he do this?

Dan, I love the Looney Tunes emblem. Great way to sum up the season for the Bills. The Titans are actually trying to make a playoff run if you can believe it. Two years ago, the big drama was who would have to leave - Vince Young or Coach Jeff Fisher. Oh well, both are gone.

The whole Taiwan issue is highly sensitive with many Mainland Chinese, who see it primarily as a breakaway Province. In terms of the history, it was to Taiwan that the Nationalist Chinese forces and government fled after being "defeated" by Mao and his army in 1949. I recall that Taiwan, along with Tibet and Tianamman, were three subjects I never discussed in the classroom and, in fact, was told not to by the officials at the first school I worked at, located in Hefei. Interestingly, I knew an ex pat there who wound up being fired from his teaching position and told to leave the country for repeatedly bringing up the issue in his classroom. He was asked on at least two occasions to stop discussing it in public venues, but he kept it up because he felt like he was entitled to "free speech." I remember meeting with him and a couple of other ex pats for coffee and we tried to make the point that he had no free speech in China as this was not his country. He refused to listen and ultimately he paid the price.

Reminds me also of the many pilots who risked their lives (and many who lost their lives) flying "over the hump" to get at the Japanese in China. The Chinese people suffered greatly under the Japanese boot, starting in 1937 or so. If any of you haven't read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, I would highly recommend it.