owenkrout

Hi there, I was a very active member of the forum from way back. My wife, ChunXia Wang immigrated in 2003 after a long, long wait for a visa during the period after 9/11 when visas where frozen. She is now a citizen and we are still having a devil of a time getting a visa for her daughter, who is now 27. She was denied a visa when the wife immigrated because she had aged out to 21 by the time the Consulate General determined that they should have been issued visas a year before they were finally granted. (The short version of a long complicated struggle). She has been approved but still no action on forwarding her paperwork to Guangzhou. My question is, has anyone of you had any experience with obtaining a visa for a child over 21 and unmarried? Especially for a child of a US Citizen? If so how long does it seem to be taking? Owen

Money is always a good bet. American money is always well received. Bit of a prestige item. Personally, I am not a drinker, but most everyone in the north of China is and a bottle of Jack Daniels is very expensive in China and again, a prestige item. American cigerettes also, but I draw the line there and refuse to carry them to hand out. One very wide spread habit that I will not encourage. A top quality fountain pen is very highly prized, especially by older people. A Chinese calligrapy set, but get someone who knows what they are doing to help you pick one out.

Put that on your active desktop if you have an always on connection.

What you may have detected is also a product of the Chinese concept of knowledge and learning. I am sure the Mick can testify also that the Chinese students are constantly wanting to know what is the "correct" way to respond or the "correct" way to say something. They are taught all of their lives to "memorize the book", the literal meaning for the Chinese for "study". Hence the approach language study by memorizing phrases and when to use them. I have even heard the comment that listening in on a Chinese conversation tends to sound stilted as they tend to always use the same phrasing all the time as that is the "correct" way to speak. Having been discouraged to do so all their lives, the Chinese students tend to have a hard time of creative work. It is true, however, that the majority of English teachers I met in China were poor at speaking or listening to English. Unfortunately, many of my college level students had simply been taught things that were wrong, especially in pronunciation. I always accepted either British or American pronunciation as correct, but most students were using neither.

The cultural insult or unintentional message is a common trap when melding two cultures. For instance the gift of a clock, or watch, in Chinese culture is viewed as a reference to death. Not generally a good choice.

If you are going to really live as part of Chinese society, then you take a certain amount of risk. The Chinese government doesn't protect it's people from fraud and outright harm anything like the US government. Stories of people being sickened or harmed by consumer products is common in the Chinese press. You just develop a certain amount of buyer beware sense. Sometimes I would pass on food stuffs on offer just because I had a bad feeling about it. Personally, I had very little problem with Mao's Revenge or anything else and we bought most everything from the street vendors right outside our home. Never missed a class in two years, so I managed pretty well. My one bought with pneumonia (just before the Chinese government finally admitted that SARS existed) came just after the end of the semester.

Just a note with all the talk of Immodium D. Immodium actually works not by treating the disease, but by addressing the symptom. It actually paralyzes, or partially paralyzes, the gut. Hence the common side effect of constipation afterwards. It is not a good idea to use it too often. Very effective Western style medicine is available over the counter in China. Trust your loved one to select what you need. I am a living testimony to the efficacy of Chinese Traditional Medicine, which is actually herbal treatment. Western medicine doesn't hold a candle to the way that Chinese Traditional Medicine has worked so well on my arthritis.

You understand.

Most of the Chinese wives may prefer living in the city. They are used to things like public transportation and walking to the market place that you simply will not have in the suburbs. Also the lack of people out on the streets is something that my wife still comments on, even in the city. We are most probably going to move to Lawrence, Kansas next month. Better opportunities for jobs for both of us and being dominated by the University of Kansas, it is unusual in having a lot of people out walking and a lot of small shops downtown while still having the large chains on the edge of town. Also my wife has several Chinese friends living there already. Boils down to my wife likes it better than the small town life. She says that she wants to return to Kansas because people are friendlier there.

The government is exempt from many of the laws that they enforce on everyone else. Go figure.

Supposedly there is soon to be a true permanent residency available to those who a judged to be worthy of such. That translates into having the right guanxi or being an international businessman. Or finding the right palm to grease. We are hoping to retire to Dalian, so I will be wanting one of those myself in the future.

At least you are thinking about the things that many Americans never even give a passing thought to. DON'T drink the tap water. Anywhere. Always use the bottled water. All homes will have a big water dispenser. They know enough not to drink the tap water. Of course the problem is that if it is not a reputable vendor, the bottled water is just tap water. Don't violate Mick's three T's. It is true that on the whole the government pretty much leaves individuals alone, but they can get very serious about public anti government talk. The co-habitation is indeed unevenly enforced across China. In some areas the PSB still sees it as an important part of their job to see to it that foreign devils don't get too friendly with the locals. In others, they couldn't care less. Sometimes it is simply a money raising scheme. Pay up and they won't charge you after all.

Haven't had the raw grubs, but they are popular in the NorthEast stir fried. I find them bland and not worth the effort myself.

I know just what you are talking about, Mick. Although my stay was not nearly as long as yours, two years was enough for me to feel the same emotions about China. I, like you, really enjoyed my time there and, at times, feel the desire to return. The living conditions were no detrement to me. Of course a few weeks of Shenyang's winter weather might make me think twice! I just got an offer from the Aeronautical Institute wanting me to teach again. Very tempting, especially since my temporary job here is about to end. My wife is set on remaining in the US however, so it looks like the alternative certification route for me for next school year. At least with that certification I can return to China to teach in the international school environment at much better wages. Important for you, Mick, to stay just for the benefit of the new baby. My advice is, stay at least long enough for Li to get her citizenship. Then you can look to retiring in China, a more affordable alternative.

110 + 130 + 65 + 335 + ?.... Oh, Man, More Fees? I thought it was $110. Then I discovered another $100 for the interview. And, now you tell me that there is another $400 that I hadn't realized. It will definitely put a dent in the money tree out back!!!!! And, I can't even deduct my Fiancee from my taxes yet because she hasn't been issued a visa so she could come here and we could get married ----- Clifford ------ Your lucky if you get off with just this. My wife and I once figured out that we had spent about $5000 on her visa and attempting to get a visa for her daughter. Much of that was because her home city is renowned as being one of the most corrupt in her province. The officials there lived up to the reputation with bribe demands.

My wife and her daughter always referred to it as the, "quickly post". Most Chinese learned a British version of English and so are puzzled when you refer to the "mail", they know it as the "post".

carhil24, I want to commend you for giving the talk that most young Americans don't get from their fathers like they should. Love is a wonderful thing and does overcome great obstacles, but perhaps some of the reason that my first wife and I drifted so far apart is that I did the routine that you are describing. Working days and going to school at nights. Often working two jobs when not in school just to make ends meet. Even now with my Masters completed, returning to the US has been a big financial hit. Really good jobs are not that easy to come by. Unfortunately, even $12/hr is barely get by money for a couple these days. Prehaps it would be best to concentrate on finishing school right now. No matter how much your wife thinks she knows about America, it will be a huge cultural shock for her. It was for me when I moved to China and it is for my wife right now. Having excellent English will help immensely. For that matter, just having a Chinese wife will be a huge cultural adjustment for you. For instance she is culturally bound to give you face and tell you she doesn't even want a present because she understands the financial situation, but you are also expected to show her face by providing a very nice present for her anyway. She will be harshly judged by her friends and relatives on the matter of face. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack or as discouraging the romance, but as youth we are not always aware of just how hard a grind life can be. Personally, I hope that all works out well for the two of you and that you have a long and happy life together!

Given the current emphasis placed on learning English, the really fortunate ones are the ones that happen to get a teacher who has excellent English language skills themselves. Unfortunately, most are of about the same level as the Spanish teacher that I had in America. She spoke only mimimal Spanish herself and I learned very little. What little I did learn, I actually learned years later while working with some Mexican immigrants. Now it has been so long since then that I have forgotten even that. Besides, that was to say the least, informal Spanish. Many of the really good teachers are now being hired away from the public schools by the very expensive private schools. Even there though I found that most of the English teachers were only minimally competent in spoken English. My wife could read and write some English when we met, but spoke almost none at all. Her daughter acted as translator at first.

Oh, but they do pick up on accents. Most Chinese who receive any instruction from a native speaker of English have British teachers. Seems it is much easier to get Brits to take the pay that they would get in China. The result is that the Chinese student learns British pronunciation and spelling. They then have problems with understanding North American English. Accents tend to bother them even more than say a European who is learning English because their native tongue is so dependent upon pronouncing the words exactly. Change a tone and the word changes completely. They tend to be poor at "guessing" the meaning of a word pronounced differently than they learned it. Add to this mix that most never have a native speaker as a teacher. They typically have Chinese teachers who themselves speak very little or very poor English. To make it even worse, the people who hire teachers assume that anyone with a Canadian, American, British, Australian or South African, etc. passport is a native speaker of English. I have known of people in China teaching oral English who had strong non-native speaker accents. I know of two in Shenyang who have thick Spanish accents (Spain not Mexico). This really messes up the students. I also knew of expensive private training centers using people with only high school degrees to teach. Mick is right, most students only learn to read and write a minimal level of English. Most of the teaching is from Chinese teachers and is basically teaching the test for the national written exams that they have to pass. By the way the Grade 7 and Grade 8 are refering to the Chinese national standards that are called Band 7 and Band 8 in China. These tests used to be a joke, filled with errors including instances or two or more answers all being correct but only one of them counted as correct on the grading or worse yet of there being no correct answer. They have improved a lot over the last few years however. Still, a person can not be able to speak a word of English and do fine on the test. I have had many students who were proud of having what they considered a large vocabulary but who couldn't hold the simplist of conversations. (4-5000 words is really a rather minimal vocabulary for English) I was constantly asked, "How many words do you have?" Translation, "How large of a vocabulary do you have?" They are then amazed when told, "I don't know. Your vocabulary is not the most important thing. It is if you can communicate that matters." The truth is that most students devote very little time to their English studies until it becomes apparent that it is about to keep them from advancing in their studies. Then they want a quick fix. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist. Also, students simply don't fail classes in the Chinese system. If you turn in a failing grade for them, they or their parents will get it changed to a passing grade. There was a scandle in Liaoning Province because a TV station actually aired secretly made tape of blatent cheating going on during a college entrance exam. The government was forced to invalidate the tests of hundreds of students and fired the local cadre from their jobs. Of course the students where just allowed to take the test over. The TV station took a lot of flak from the government and the investigative reporting stopped. The same situation would exist here if colleges all required a foreign language in order to graduate. Some people are very good with languages, most struggle.

Unfortunately, even if you are married getting a visa for her is a hard row to hoe. My brother-in-law (Chinese) came to the US for his graduate study and it took 4 years and more applications than that to get visas for his wife and daughter to join him. Only after he got his H-1 work visa were they finally granted visas. Even then it took two tries. Perserverence and a good attitude from her during the application and interview process are the best hope for it ever working out.

Yes, when we went through Seoul, I passed through the check point with no delay and then had to wait for my wife. They actually segregated all the Chinese passengers to one side and subjected them to close questioning and several where searched. When my wife finally pointed me out standing about 10 meters away and giving them what my children refer to as "The Look", they suddenly got apoligetic with her and with me and hustled her out. The rest of the Chinese were still being scrutinized as we left the area for our connecting flight.

Mick Do you have kids? cause quiet and kids don't go in the same home and the only thing I meditate on is how to keep them from arguing. But I agree time alone is nice. Li is presently three months pregnant with the baby due on May 13. No doubt my quiet time will come before that. I do have another child, a daughter age 17. Even when she was a baby, I was able to get in about twenty minutes meditation on most days. I'm pretty flexible, so I guess I will find a way to work it all out. My grandfather had eleven kids. He used to get up at 3 AM everyday for his quiet time. I attribute much of my being able to relax and accept that China was not America to taking the time to meditate. When the Foreign Affairs Officer was not being cooperative (again) it was the best thing to do. Its a survival tactic to me as well as a spiritual boost.

Thanks for all the support. What had immediately led to her being so upset was family members telling her that since she was not my daughter, I would not really try to obtain a visa for her. Unfortunately, it is common in China for the step-father to have nothing to do with his wife's children from a previous marriage. Especially if it is a girl. She just wanted some reassurance that I really do care about her.

Interestingly, I have had students in China tell me that even they have a problem with forgetting characters that they don't utilize commonly. Since it is not a phonetically based language, you can't puzzle out a character or at least something close enough to be understood just from the way that it sounds. I had a Cambodian student when I was teaching college in Ohio who had immigrated when he was about 12. He had literally been sold to an American while in Cambodia and they had managed to fake the paperwork enough to get him accepted as being adopted. He had a thick accent, but had forgotten his native tongue almost entirely. He complained about not being proficient in either language. Actually he was pretty good in English, you just had to get past the accent.

I guess this fits in the general line of culture. Yesterday was heart-rending to me. My Chinese step daughter called me twice yesterday morning (woke me up both times since I work 12 hour night shifts). She was just feeling disraught because she was not able to be with her mama and baba. Family is such a center of Chinese culture that it is really hard on her being seperated from her immediate family. She is 22 years old and in America would be glad to be out on her own, but for the Chinese, since she is not married, she is expected to be living with her parents still and still under their authority. There was a real outpouring of emotion from her. She just wanted to talk to her baba. (Her mother talks to her several times a week while I am at work) She has told me years ago that she only remembers her natural father as the person who would show up to beat them up and take their money and that she was very happy to have a real father. I consider her my daughter and love her deeply. She still asks for me to make decisions regarding her life and will adhere to whatever I decree. Very different than my American children! One of the worst things about our current immigration policies is that they seperate these very close families which is much more painful for them than even what it would be in American culture. Meanwhile we set and wait for the BCIS to decide that it is time for her to get the immigration visa that they admit she is qualified for.