To all JDs especially tonyontherock

[NY-Viking]

I want to do it because I want challenge my intelligence, sounds weird huh?

 

I cant be a laywer because of my moral norm, I would not fight for somebody who I know that guilty just because I am doing my job responsibility as a laywer.

 

Financial is not an issue, here is USA. hehe

 

Which Law school are you in?

No, that's not weird. I think it's great you want to challenge your intelligence. But, let me put it this way. You can study the law by reading books, by taking a few law related classes (not necessarily at law school), by going to court rooms, reading laws, etc., etc., etc. Pursuing a JD, on the other hand, really should be in order to pursue some career in which you intend to use the degree.

 

I say this because, while I think it's great you see the USA as the land of opportunity, finances are most definitely an issue here. I'm in my second year of law school and have already taken out more than $35,000 in loans. I'll graduate with probably around $60,000 in debt. I worked for several years and need the loans basically to cover tuition. My savings are currently rapidly disappering as I pay for housing, food, etc. Many of my classmates have taken out even larger loans. And, yes, as you indicated we are doing this because we hope to get a return on our investment through a fiancially rewarding career.

 

Like medschool, pusuing a JD promises to bring a higher salary. But you should know that the average JD is making something like $35-$40,000 a year. Not chump change, no, but the majority of lawyers aren't scoring that $125,000 a year job the year they graduate law school. So, unless you're very wealthy to begin with, a JD really is a BIG financial commitment. But most would say a rewarding one.

 

As for your concerns over moral norms, I can't say I agree with everything spify79 put in his post, but it's hard to tell since a person's complete meaning is often a bit ambiguous on Internet posts. But some things you should consider:

 

1. There are MANY things you can do with a J.D. and NOT be a lawyer. You can use a law degree in many other professions - business, politics, education, etc.

 

2. There are MANY KINDS of lawyers - not just criminal defense attorneys. There are immigration lawyers, tax lawyers, corporate lawyers, divorce lawyers, prosecutors, and really too many different things to list. A J.D. is kind of the entry you need to be any kind of lawyer, but it's still very general. Many attorneys spend their entire careers without ever entering a courtroom.

 

3. No matter what kind of law you decide to pursue, you are your client's advocate. That means you have to represent their interests, in court, in drafting a contract, in providing tax advice, etc., and that you should do so zealously, even if they are "guilty" or you disagree with their position.

 

4. You are not legally bound to represent everyone. In most cases, you can turn down or even withdraw from representing a client if you have moral qualms with the representation, provided it does not adversely affect the client. That is, even if you are a criminal defense attorney you can decide to not represent Michael Jackson, unless you have been representing him for several months and the trial is well underway.

 

5. Once you do decide to represent someone, however, you should do so zealously. See point 3.

 

6. You have responsibilities to your client and to society that need to be balanced. That is, if you are representing a client that you know to be guilty, you need to provide zealous representation, but you are forbidden form taking actions that are unethical. You can't, for example, submit evidence that you know to be false.

 

My points above are very general and do not represent my entire views about the responsibilites of a lawyer, but they might give you some things to think about. Also, please note that by stating that a JD is expensive, I do not intend to suggest that you should not pursue a JD. But, do consider why you want to study it.

 

OK, that's about enough of this discussion for a US visa information board, so I won't be making any additional postings here on this topic. If anyone would like to discuss the study of law or lawyers again, feel free to private message me or send me an e-mail.

[Beachgirl]

I don't think its weird to want to challenge your intelligence by pursuing a law degree. Very noble pursuit for personal growth.

 

As for not representing an individual who "you know" to be guilty, one of the first things you learn as a lawyer is never ask the client if he/she in fact did what he/she is charged with. If you are told they did the criminal act, you can't go to trial and allow them to use some lame story about being not guilty. It is breach of your ethics and subjects you to charges by the legal association of your state. One always tells the client in the beginning not to admit guilt if in fact they intend to go to trial on a theory of not guilty.

 

A lawyer once said to the general public "lawyers are prostitues". I must say I agree with the description. We do what we are asked to do for $$$.

 

Its a great way to prepare you for some other professions in life. Way back when I was in law school, only about 1/3 of the class made it to graduation. Just make sure you pick a good school and not one that just hands out JDs at end of 3 years.

Is law school in Yale good enough?

[Beachgirl]

I want to do it because I want challenge my intelligence, sounds weird huh?

 

I cant be a laywer because of my moral norm, I would not fight for somebody who I know that guilty just because I am doing my job responsibility as a laywer.

 

Financial is not an issue, here is USA. hehe

 

Which Law school are you in?

No, that's not weird. I think it's great you want to challenge your intelligence. But, let me put it this way. You can study the law by reading books, by taking a few law related classes (not necessarily at law school), by going to court rooms, reading laws, etc., etc., etc. Pursuing a JD, on the other hand, really should be in order to pursue some career in which you intend to use the degree.

 

I say this because, while I think it's great you see the USA as the land of opportunity, finances are most definitely an issue here. I'm in my second year of law school and have already taken out more than $35,000 in loans. I'll graduate with probably around $60,000 in debt. I worked for several years and need the loans basically to cover tuition. My savings are currently rapidly disappering as I pay for housing, food, etc. Many of my classmates have taken out even larger loans. And, yes, as you indicated we are doing this because we hope to get a return on our investment through a fiancially rewarding career.

 

Like medschool, pusuing a JD promises to bring a higher salary. But you should know that the average JD is making something like $35-$40,000 a year. Not chump change, no, but the majority of lawyers aren't scoring that $125,000 a year job the year they graduate law school. So, unless you're very wealthy to begin with, a JD really is a BIG financial commitment. But most would say a rewarding one.

 

As for your concerns over moral norms, I can't say I agree with everything spify79 put in his post, but it's hard to tell since a person's complete meaning is often a bit ambiguous on Internet posts. But some things you should consider:

 

1. There are MANY things you can do with a J.D. and NOT be a lawyer. You can use a law degree in many other professions - business, politics, education, etc.

 

2. There are MANY KINDS of lawyers - not just criminal defense attorneys. There are immigration lawyers, tax lawyers, corporate lawyers, divorce lawyers, prosecutors, and really too many different things to list. A J.D. is kind of the entry you need to be any kind of lawyer, but it's still very general. Many attorneys spend their entire careers without ever entering a courtroom.

 

3. No matter what kind of law you decide to pursue, you are your client's advocate. That means you have to represent their interests, in court, in drafting a contract, in providing tax advice, etc., and that you should do so zealously, even if they are "guilty" or you disagree with their position.

 

4. You are not legally bound to represent everyone. In most cases, you can turn down or even withdraw from representing a client if you have moral qualms with the representation, provided it does not adversely affect the client. That is, even if you are a criminal defense attorney you can decide to not represent Michael Jackson, unless you have been representing him for several months and the trial is well underway.

 

5. Once you do decide to represent someone, however, you should do so zealously. See point 3.

 

6. You have responsibilities to your client and to society that need to be balanced. That is, if you are representing a client that you know to be guilty, you need to provide zealous representation, but you are forbidden form taking actions that are unethical. You can't, for example, submit evidence that you know to be false.

 

My points above are very general and do not represent my entire views about the responsibilites of a lawyer, but they might give you some things to think about. Also, please note that by stating that a JD is expensive, I do not intend to suggest that you should not pursue a JD. But, do consider why you want to study it.

 

OK, that's about enough of this discussion for a US visa information board, so I won't be making any additional postings here on this topic. If anyone would like to discuss the study of law or lawyers again, feel free to private message me or send me an e-mail.

Do you study in New England States?

[jgrier5]

NY-Viking!!! What JD salaries are you looking at??!?!?!?!?

 

I am a law school student and my summer clerk position is paying almost twice that amount....hmmm..

 

I think a better estimate would be 60-70k

[NY-Viking]

NY-Viking!!! What JD salaries are you looking at??!?!?!?!?

 

I am a law school student and my summer clerk position is paying almost twice that amount....hmmm..

 

I think a better estimate would be 60-70k

Thanks for calling me on that. I guess that's what I get for pulling numbers out of mid-air late at night. Was remembering something I read in an ABA magazine at some point, but anyway, just did a quick look at www.nalp.org.

 

Yeah, the average salary across ALL sectors is probably somewhere in the 60-70k range. However, that average is skewed somewhat by private practice positions in larger legal markets (where, not coincidentally, the majority of lawyers work). Obviously, anyone looking to work in public interest or government will be looking at a few 10k less a year. And private practice salaries of course vary greatly based on location, practice area and size of firm.

 

Anyway, I stand by the rest of my post. A JD is still a big financial commitment.

[NY-Viking]

Do you study in New England States?

No, I'm at the University of Minnesota.

 

Is law school in Yale good enough?

Are you serious?

[MRMC]

Viking is correct. The vast majority of lawyers are not earning the mega salaries. Well let me correct myself, they are not earning such salaries for long. Don't do it for the money. Many large firms hire entry level attorneys at high six-figure salaries only to let them go in a couple of years. This boosts the firm's stats over how many new hires they have made and makes it appear that a firm is growing, when in fact the firm may fire or lay off many more attorneys. Go to law school only if you enjoy the law. If you really find that you do, then the billable hours of a firm or the low salary of a government or public interest position will not bother you as much. And remember when a firm tells you it requires 2400 billable hours that does not mean that you only have to work 200 hours a month. Much time may be spend on non-billable work, client development, continuing legal education, meetings within the firm. You could in fact find hour to hour that you could earn more working as a supermarket checker.

[oregonknl]

Let me add a little here as a former client...

 

.... Patent law... some interested in law school might already know that the billing here is substantially higher than most areas of legal work, because patent lawyers usually also need another advanced degree in engineering...

 

Fortunately, in the several years I was involved in the most intense part of my relationship with the firm --- litigation --- I wasn't paying the bills, because they took it on a contingency .... But yeah, I got a good look on the inside ---- reviewed EVERYTHING and sat through at least 10 depositions..... knew who was prepared, and who wasn't....

 

Many times, I as the client, pulled the firm through..... But, also, after the trial, some heads did roll among the associates .... and I'm glad they did..

[jgrier5]

Wow,

there is a lot of misinformation going on here. But I am at work and too lazy to dispell all of the falsities.

 

Beachgirl, do what you feel is best for you, that is the best advice.

[Beachgirl]

Do you study in New England States?

No, I'm at the University of Minnesota.

 

Is law school in Yale good enough?

Are you serious?

Do I sound kidding? As my question, you should have a little bit idea where my location is. what is wrong with Yale law school?

[Beachgirl]

Monye is not an issue for me to go to law school. no pain, no gain. I would not be threatened by the financial commitment and block my interest by worrying about those green papers.

 

Speaking of the income of being a lawyer, as much as I heard, the lowest is 35k, the highest is 500k, they are all my friends. the 500k one works at wall street NYC and paid quarterly, a business lawyer, not an one goes to the court at all.

 

I am considering for law school not for the income, and as I said, I do it for interests, I am not planning to be a lawyer, but there is always a perspective, you will never know till you tried.

 

WE ONLY LIVE ONCE!

[NY-Viking]

OK, this has drifted a bit from Beachgirl's original query and my initial comment, so anyway ...

 

Beachgirl, we're working through a little bit of a language barrier, which is amplified by the ambiguity the Internet creates by removing expressions. Let me just state a few things:

 

1. jgrier is right that you should do what is best for you. If you want to go to law school, do it. I would, however, suggest you consider why you want to go.

 

2. My initial comment about the cost was only because you said law was an "interest". Most things I would consider an "interest" or a "hobby" would not be worth going into $60,000 worth of debt for. I think, however, your meaning was that you are "intersted in" law, which is a different thing entirely. And in that case, a JD is something you should consider. This is semantics, yes, and I apologize for my initial misunderstanding.

 

3. As for why you want to go to lawschool, it seems the pursuit of wealth is not top on your list, which is good, because if it is, there are better ways to do it. When considering why you want your JD, consider what you will want to do with it after you graduate. Talk to your friends that are lawyers. Before I applied to lawschool, about half the lawyers in the firm I worked for suggested I not apply to law school. But, as you know, you can always use your JD toward something else too.

 

4. As far as lawyers' salaries go, during the past hour I saw about 4 commercials from the Christian Children's Fund inviting me to sponsor children in third world counties. There was not a single commercial inviting me to sponsor starving lawyers in America or elsewhere! Lawyers, on the whole, are doing well, and the majority of those in private practice are making rather large salaries when compared to many other careers.

 

5. As for your question about Yale law school, the main the wrong with Yale is that they rejected this really great applicant a few years ago. I mean he was smart, he was witty, had great work experience, he was pretty sexy, ...

 

Seriously though, nothing is wrong with Yale law school. It is generally considered the best law school in the country. And, along with other top schools it is VERY competitive to get into. Only 6.4% of the people who applied to Yale were accepted last year. And many other people interested in Yale simply didn't apply since they more or less knew they would be rejected. The $70 application fee (or lottery ticket) could probably go towards better things for most of us. Like beer, for example.

 

In researching what law school is best for you, I suggest you pick up a copy of the latest US News & World Report guide to graduate schools. You can find the law school results on the web at http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rank...wrank_brief.php . But keep in mind that the US News criteria is only one way to compare law schools. Although you'll learn a lot of the same things at most law schools, you'll want to consider other factors like where you want to work, do you have other things keeping you in a certain area, are there any special programs that schools have which you are interested in, etc.

 

Use the US News as a starting point, but you'll also want to get brochures from schools in which you are interested and check out information on law school specific websites. For example, the Princeton Review runs something similar to CFL for law school applicants applying to and waiting to hear back from law schools. There are other law school application boards as well. Some schools make the Guangzhou Consulate seem down right quick. OK, maybe not, but waiting on law school acceptance isn't fun either.

 

I would also suggest you check out the 1973 film The Paper Chase. The movie is a bit dated, most professors are not quite like the one depicted in the film anymore and the main character is a bit whiny (yes, law school is hard, get over guy), but the movie is a pretty good portrayal of what happens in law school.

 

Anyway, best of luck in your decision, and feel free to PM if you'd like.

[Beachgirl]

OK, this has drifted a bit from Beachgirl's original query and my initial comment, so anyway ...

 

Beachgirl, we're working through a little bit of a language barrier, which is amplified by the ambiguity the Internet creates by removing expressions.  Let me just state a few things:

 

1.  jgrier is right that you should do what is best for you.  If you want to go to law school, do it.  I would, however, suggest you consider why you want to go. 

 

2.  My initial comment about the cost was only because you said law was an "interest".  Most things I would consider an "interest" or a "hobby" would not be worth going into $60,000 worth of debt for.  I think, however, your meaning was that you are "intersted in" law, which is a different thing entirely.  And in that case, a JD is something you should consider.  This is semantics, yes, and I apologize for my initial misunderstanding.

 

3.  As for why you want to go to lawschool, it seems the pursuit of wealth is not top on your list, which is good, because if it is, there are better ways to do it.  When considering why you want your JD, consider what you will want to do with it after you graduate.  Talk to your friends that are lawyers.  Before I applied to lawschool, about half the lawyers in the firm I worked for suggested I not apply to law school.  But, as you know, you can always use your JD toward something else too.

 

4.  As far as lawyers' salaries go, during the past hour I saw about 4 commercials from the Christian Children's Fund inviting me to sponsor children in third world counties.  There was not a single commercial inviting me to sponsor starving lawyers in America or elsewhere!  Lawyers, on the whole, are doing well, and the majority of those in private practice are making rather large salaries when compared to many other careers.

 

5.  As for your question about Yale law school, the main the wrong with Yale is that they rejected this really great applicant a few years ago.  I mean he was smart, he was witty, had great work experience, he was pretty sexy,  ...

 

Seriously though, nothing is wrong with Yale law school.  It is generally considered the best law school in the country.  And, along with other top schools it is VERY competitive to get into.  Only 6.4% of the people who applied to Yale were accepted last year.  And many other people interested in Yale simply didn't apply since they more or less knew they would be rejected.  The $70 application fee (or lottery ticket) could probably go towards better things for most of us.  Like beer, for example.

 

In researching what law school is best for you, I suggest you pick up a copy of the latest US News & World Report guide to graduate schools.  You can find the law school results on the web at http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rank...wrank_brief.php .  But keep in mind that the US News criteria is only one way to compare law schools.  Although you'll learn a lot of the same things at most law schools, you'll want to consider other factors like where you want to work, do you have other things keeping you in a certain area, are there any special programs that schools have which you are interested in, etc. 

 

Use the US News as a starting point, but you'll also want to get brochures from schools in which you are interested and check out information on law school specific websites.  For example, the Princeton Review runs something similar to CFL for law school applicants applying to and waiting to hear back from law schools.  There are other law school application boards as well.  Some schools make the Guangzhou Consulate seem down right quick. OK, maybe not, but waiting on law school acceptance isn't fun either.

 

I would also suggest you check out the 1973 film The Paper Chase.  The movie is a bit dated, most professors are not quite like the one depicted in the film anymore and the main character is a bit whiny (yes, law school is hard, get over guy), but the movie is a pretty good portrayal of what happens in law school.

 

Anyway, best of luck in your decision, and feel free to PM if you'd like.

It is obviously that you will be a good lawyer as my observation; each of your replies indicated your intelligence and logical analysis.

 

Life is being too easy for me; I want to find something hard to challenge myself. I absolutely want to debate more about the topic, but I doubt my language ability to win.

[Beachgirl]

OK, this has drifted a bit from Beachgirl's original query and my initial comment, so anyway ...

 

Beachgirl, we're working through a little bit of a language barrier, which is amplified by the ambiguity the Internet creates by removing expressions.  Let me just state a few things:

 

1.  jgrier is right that you should do what is best for you.  If you want to go to law school, do it.  I would, however, suggest you consider why you want to go. 

 

2.  My initial comment about the cost was only because you said law was an "interest".  Most things I would consider an "interest" or a "hobby" would not be worth going into $60,000 worth of debt for.  I think, however, your meaning was that you are "intersted in" law, which is a different thing entirely.  And in that case, a JD is something you should consider.  This is semantics, yes, and I apologize for my initial misunderstanding.

 

3.  As for why you want to go to lawschool, it seems the pursuit of wealth is not top on your list, which is good, because if it is, there are better ways to do it.  When considering why you want your JD, consider what you will want to do with it after you graduate.  Talk to your friends that are lawyers.  Before I applied to lawschool, about half the lawyers in the firm I worked for suggested I not apply to law school.  But, as you know, you can always use your JD toward something else too.

 

4.  As far as lawyers' salaries go, during the past hour I saw about 4 commercials from the Christian Children's Fund inviting me to sponsor children in third world counties.  There was not a single commercial inviting me to sponsor starving lawyers in America or elsewhere!  Lawyers, on the whole, are doing well, and the majority of those in private practice are making rather large salaries when compared to many other careers.

 

5.  As for your question about Yale law school, the main the wrong with Yale is that they rejected this really great applicant a few years ago.  I mean he was smart, he was witty, had great work experience, he was pretty sexy,  ...

 

Seriously though, nothing is wrong with Yale law school.  It is generally considered the best law school in the country.  And, along with other top schools it is VERY competitive to get into.  Only 6.4% of the people who applied to Yale were accepted last year.  And many other people interested in Yale simply didn't apply since they more or less knew they would be rejected.  The $70 application fee (or lottery ticket) could probably go towards better things for most of us.  Like beer, for example.

 

In researching what law school is best for you, I suggest you pick up a copy of the latest US News & World Report guide to graduate schools.  You can find the law school results on the web at http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rank...wrank_brief.php .  But keep in mind that the US News criteria is only one way to compare law schools.  Although you'll learn a lot of the same things at most law schools, you'll want to consider other factors like where you want to work, do you have other things keeping you in a certain area, are there any special programs that schools have which you are interested in, etc. 

 

Use the US News as a starting point, but you'll also want to get brochures from schools in which you are interested and check out information on law school specific websites.  For example, the Princeton Review runs something similar to CFL for law school applicants applying to and waiting to hear back from law schools.  There are other law school application boards as well.  Some schools make the Guangzhou Consulate seem down right quick. OK, maybe not, but waiting on law school acceptance isn't fun either.

 

I would also suggest you check out the 1973 film The Paper Chase.  The movie is a bit dated, most professors are not quite like the one depicted in the film anymore and the main character is a bit whiny (yes, law school is hard, get over guy), but the movie is a pretty good portrayal of what happens in law school.

 

Anyway, best of luck in your decision, and feel free to PM if you'd like.

What is PM?

[king]

Law school is good for developing analytical abilities, usable in many endeavors beside practicing law and, of course, you will learn much about the how a legal system is the framework for much of a society's interactions.

 

One counter thought to your interest in attending law school. Unless you will use the knowledge to some purpose that enhances the development of the law or your own delevelopment if you are admitted into a desired law school, you would of necessity be taking the place of some other person who is most likely, passionately intent on going to law school and practicing law. Just a thought for you if your interest in law school is not too serious.