China on the South China Seas

[danb]

"I think he missed his target thread (a cross-post) - :secret:"

Actually it wasn't intended as a cross post. Perhaps a bit of a play on words but not a cross post.

I think thru part of history the US has chosen not to play the bystander. Well maybe they played it for a while but eventually they jumped in. Cases in point:

Germany invades ? Austria 1939?

Japan invading Manchuria 1931?

Germany Invade Poland 1939?

Germany bombs England civilian population 1940-1943?

Hussein invades Kuwait 1990?

Hussein gasses the Kurds 1988?

Iran threatens(?) the world with nuclear development 2000's?

Syria gasses it's own citizens 2013?

North Korean running amuck since 2000..

Now I am sure that we do have oil interests in the Middle East but there are also many innocent bystanders that are standing / or stood to be hurt. Do we keep our head in the sand? Should we play a role as an isolationist? Do we exercise our blind eye? Sometime i don't think that we should get involve and sometimes..... I am not sure if playing the standby er is the right things to do.

There seems to be a lot of posting of what the Chinese will do if but not enough of talking of how to seek a more peaceful solution to the problems in Southeast Asia. I rather see peaceful solutions. and perhaps a lot more cooperation of finding alternatives to oil and oil. PEACE!!!

Danb

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

There seems to be a lot of posting of what the Chinese will do if but not enough of talking of how to seek a more peaceful solution to the problems in Southeast Asia. I rather see peaceful solutions. and perhaps a lot more cooperation of finding alternatives to oil and oil. PEACE!!!

Danb

 

 

 

The Diaoyu dispute is no sooner rooted in in oil, than trapseui isn't a hillbilly. Take a look at the maps China produces as to where there borders are and then compare those maps to the outside world. What's that? They are not the same? Taiwan, Hong Kong, Phillipines, Indonesia, the south China sea? Spend a little time reading up about Diaoyu and if you can try debating the issue with a few Chinese people if you dare. Not just the one closest to you, but take a sampling. The rural rice farmer, the transient, the common folk, the internal educated, the outside china for a few month folk, and the overseas graduate student. What? Can't find 'em? You already know the answers? Good. Then plant your "this is just about oil" flag on one of the Diaoyu islands and camp out and see what happens.

[danb]

In my last sentence I said "oil and oil." I meant to say oil and other energy reserves ( such as gas).

 

I have a couple of maps of China somewhere in the house but could only find two plastic topographical ones but they are in Chinese. I don't know many Characters except for maybe 中国. I wonder that means middle country/kingdom. There are maps on the internet. Here is a link to one of some of the disputed territories:

 

 

It is interesting how far some of Chinese nautical border extends in some of these disputes. Spratly Islands appears to be in between Vietnam and the Philippines and China is off to the side. The far side. I hope that they don't look at some of the ancient maps when they says which territories are theirs. Didn't the Moguls get almost to the gates of Rome. They would never claim anything like that would they? China was abused the western and also Japan during the early 1900 and the last part of the 1800's. I was surprised by the amount of abuse that the west and Japan dished out to China. I don't remember that part of history being stressed when I was in High School and college in the early 1970's. The abused seem to had been forgotten or glossed over. What's up with that? There are ways to settle border dispute. An unchecked powerful country may settle it in one manner but a wise and fair one may try to resolve it in a fair, diplomatic, and peaceful manner.

 

I am a bit concerned by articles ( now days it seems to be a constant stream of them) coming out of China that keep inferring that they will do what they have to do to keep control over their claimed territories.

 

Peace

 

Danb

Edited June 6, 2021 by Randy W (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

Dan's map is pretty interesting. I notice on one of them the red line that China claims as theirs is just off shore of all the countries in the South China Sea. (bottom right) Vietnam, Brunei Malaysia and The Philippines. Looks a little greedy to me. I wonder what the world would think if the US drew a similar line all around the Gulf Of Mexico or off the coast of Mexico and Central America in the Pacific. While I don't doubt that oil and natural gas are part of it, I think it's mostly about China asserting itself as a world power and strategic military advantage..

Edited June 6, 2021 by Randy W (see edit history)

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

China Criticizes Japan's Provocative Remarks

 

 

BEIJING, Oct. 28 (Xinhua) -- China criticized Japan on Monday for repeatedly making provocative remarks and accused Japan of breaking the status quo on the Diaoyu Islands, in response to Japanese leader Shinzo Abe's claims to the same effect. Abe told troops on Sunday that Japan would not "tolerate the use of force to change the region's status quo" and called for surveillance and intelligence activities in this regard.

 

"Japanese leaders' provocative comments concerning China demonstrate these politicians' lying techniques and their unscrupulous and guilty conscience," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said at a daily news briefing. She reaffirmed China's Diaoyu Islands stance, which is that they are an inherent part of Chinese territory though they were covertly included in Japanese territories by Japan in 1895 after the first Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895).

 

"China and Japan agreed to seek a resolution on the Islands issue in the future when diplomatic relations normalized in 1972. The important consensus is a major foundation for the growth of bilateral ties," Hua said. She voiced China's opposition to Japan's illegal and invalid unilateral move on the Diaoyu Islands.

 

"It is no one else but Japan itself that is breaking the status quo on the Diaoyu Islands," the spokeswoman said, urging the country to reflect on its deeds, show sincerity and take real actions so as to properly manage and resolve the problems with China.

 

She reiterated China's determination to follow a path for peaceful development and maintain a peaceful and stable neighborhood. China is committed to resolving territorial disputes through dialogue and consultation while preserving national territorial sovereignty and maritime rights, according to Hua. Chinese military planes' training over the East China Sea is in line with international laws and practices. It is no cause for concern, she added.

 

Hua's comments sounded a similar note to those of Defense Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng, who said on Saturday that Japan's plan to shoot down drones that allegedly infringe into its airspace would be a severe provocation to China and an act of war. He warned that China will take resolute measures to strike back.

Edited October 28, 2013 by GuangDongExpat (see edit history)

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

There was an article written by the Chinese government and cited by an author living in Malaysia a few years ago in which the Chinese government vowed to clamp down on illegal maps of China and illegal mapmakers. What is an illegal map of China you may ask? Why, it's any map that was not made in China and shows boundaries and borders differently than what China has approved.

 

 

 

China clamping down on illegal online maps

Summary: Country's mapping bureau gets serious with eliminating illegal online mapping services, noting that over 1,000 violations have been identified since 2008, reports say.

 

 

China has reportedly stepped up efforts to eliminate illegal online mapping services, with the country's mapping bureau calling for punishment to be meted out to violators, according to local report.

State media Xinhua on Monday reported that the State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping is working with 13 governmental agencies in a nationwide campaign to crack down on illegal online mapping services.

Citing an official from the bureau, the report noted that in online mapping alone, over a thousand violations had been recorded since 2008. The government official said major violations included "unauthorized disclosure of confidential information on the maps, and mistakes in drawing the country's border, especially on islands and coastal areas".

According to Xinhua, the mapping bureau is pushing for "resolute punishments" for serious violations including shutting down Web sites, withdrawing unapproved publications from sale and initiating the destruction of maps that contain major mistakes.

China's online mapping services are expected to generate revenues reaching 3 billion yuan (US$457 million) by 2012, the report revealed.

The country in May last year implemented a new legislation requiring online maps providers to have licenses in order to operate legally. These companies have until the end of this month to acquire their license, said the report.

According to Xinhua, as of mid-February, 105 Web sites including Baidu, Sina, Nokia and China Mobile have received licenses.

 

Article Link

Edited October 28, 2013 by GuangDongExpat (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

I'd like to see the Official Chinese map of the area Dan posted. I did glean more from an internet search. It seems that the the Senkaku or Diaoyu islands have been in Japanese ownership since 1895 after the first Sino Japanese war when China ceded them to Japan. China claims that Japan lost rights to them after their surrender at the end of WW2. Japan says this isn't so. Taiwan also claims them. Geographically they are closest to Japan at about 140 km.Taiwan is 2nd at about 170 km. No one lives there but they are used by the US for bombing target practice. These are tiny islands, the largest of which is only 4.38 square km. It appears Dan's oil theory may have some credibility. China didn't dispute ownership until 1968 when it was discovered that there may be oil reserves in the ocean nearby.

[danb]

In the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands issue both sides may be in part "playing it up " to their country men sentiments. Hopefully they don't back themselves into a corner. In some articles PM Abe seems to be using the strain relations with China as a vote getter. And I sometimes think that China uses the long history of the Chinese people disdain for the Japanese as a diversions to other domestic issues that China don't or can not resolve. I wish the relationship between the two country would be much better. One of good neighbors. Danb

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

I'd like to see the Official Chinese map of the area Dan posted. I did glean more from an internet search. It seems that the the Senkaku or Diaoyu islands have been in Japanese ownership since 1895 after the first Sino Japanese war when China ceded them to Japan. China claims that Japan lost rights to them after their surrender at the end of WW2. Japan says this isn't so. Taiwan also claims them. Geographically they are closest to Japan at about 140 km.Taiwan is 2nd at about 170 km. No one lives there but they are used by the US for bombing target practice. These are tiny islands, the largest of which is only 4.38 square km. It appears Dan's oil theory may have some credibility. China didn't dispute ownership until 1968 when it was discovered that there may be oil reserves in the ocean nearby.

 

 

In the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands issue both sides may be in part "playing it up " to their country men sentiments. Hopefully they don't back themselves into a corner. In some articles PM Abe seems to be using the strain relations with China as a vote getter. And I sometimes think that China uses the long history of the Chinese people disdain for the Japanese as a diversions to other domestic issues that China don't or can not resolve. I wish the relationship between the two country would be much better. One of good neighbors. Danb

 

Joyman Lee, a PhD student of history at Harvard, posted a discussion about this dispute. There are many who simply say the dispute is just about oil, but he does a good joy of explaining further....

 

 

 

 

 

...The dispute over the islands is a time bomb, given the enormity of the stakes involved. Despite Japanese claims that Chinese and Taiwanese interests in the islands are guided primarily by the possibility of major oil deposits, there has been little constructive dialogue between the countries involved in the question of the recent disputes over ownership of the islands. This remains at the very centre of broader tension between China and Japan, with the Nanjing Massacre of 1937 a focal point. Japan’s intransigent position on atrocities committed during the Second World War helps to fuel Chinese popular sentiment against it and makes the country an easy scapegoat for domestic discontent. Yet these days it is also easy to forget that China was the underdog for much of the 20th century; even today China is less articulate on the global scene than Japan.

The Chinese stance over the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands is comparable with the situation in the 1930s when Nationalist China refused to accept or acknowledge Japan’s control over Manchuria (Manchukuo in Japanese) despite widespread concern that militarily China would not be able to withstand Japanese aggression. By refusing to recognise Japanese control over the lost territories China sought to destabilise the foreign presence there even though the Chinese Nationalist government then based in Nanjing was unable to exert physical control.

http://www.historytoday.com/joyman-lee/senkakudiaoyu-islands-conflict

 

The value of the islands remains unclear. They are strategically located because they are in the middle of major sea routes. The waters offer rich fishing grounds and the seabed around the islands could hold important natural gas reserves. In 2008, as a token of détente, the two governments signed an agreement for joint development and research on the islands, but it was never implemented.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Disputed-Senkaku-/-Diaoyu-islands-to-be-defended-%E2%80%9Cat-any-cost%E2%80%9D-says-Japanese-27034.html

Edited October 29, 2013 by GuangDongExpat (see edit history)

[tsap seui]

Opps, I already posted my sentiments. Carry on boyz.

 

tsap seui

 

Stay out of it America

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

Opps, I already posted my sentiments. Carry on boyz.

 

tsap seui

 

Stay out of it America

Bless you Tsap, but there is no evidence that this territorial dispute between China and Japan is about oil. That claim is made by Japan toward China for political posturing. If you read the links I posted in their entirety, especially the one written by Joyman Lee, you will find a comprehensive analysis of this dispute. All indications are that the US has no intentions of becoming involved in this centuries old dispute.

 

 

However the dispute between China and Japan cannot be understood without grasping the complexities of nation state formation in Asia in the late 19th century.

 

--Joyman Lee

See also:

 

The China Japan Dispute Over Diaoyu Islands: Historical Analysis

Edited October 30, 2013 by GuangDongExpat (see edit history)

[warpedbored]

Interesting analysis Jesse but it's also pretty lop sided pro China. I also think it would be pretty naive to believe oil and natural gas potential have nothing to do with it. The whole island chain is only about 7 square kilometers. The largest island is only 4.3 square kilometers. The rest of the islands are .6 km or smaller. Pretty much just rocks sticking out of the water. Hardly worth fighting over. The US may have every intention staying out of it but we are not uninvolved. The area has great military strategic value. I don't think Japan is going to back down over this and the one sure way to drag the US into a war with China would be for China to attack Japan. Considering the islands have been under Japanese control for the last 118 years I have to question China's wisdom of being willing to fight over 7 km of rocks sticking out of the water.

[tsap seui]

Carl, you hit the nail on the head cuzin'.

 

Jesse, I read what you posted, and what they saw is fine and dandy but heck, I've seen too much of the real reason America's leaders put on their faux white hats and send us boys off to fight their wars, supposedly, in the name of God Country and everybody in the world followin' the American way to know that this crap is WAY more than about how each party looks at "their" maps of rocks stickin' outta the ocean. Even though we are loaded with oil our owndamnselves, we seem to be transfixed on the rest of the worlds oil too. Beats me why, but we are. Where does Japan get their oil anyhow? One report I read says of the oil we export from Alaska, South Korea is number 1 with Japan getting close to them at number 2. I'm sure Japan gets lots more from the Saudis but I ain't figuring Japan is willing to risk WWIII, solely on something like whose map is correct.

 

I just hate to see us getting suckered in to help Japan. They want that oil...er...those rocks, let them fight over it. I'm tired of walking into the local VAMC seeing young men and women in the behavorial health building for PTSD and rolling in wheel chairs into the big building....over oil. Us older combat vets are paying enough price for stupid un-thought out wars, leave the youth alone. Let Japan fight it's own damn war...if they are stupid enough to fire missiles at Chinese ships first, or provoke the Chinese too far knowing we will come to their aid like fools.

 

tsap seui

 

I'll step right out and ask it...again. Why do we continue to look at the Chinese with Joe McCarthy's eyes? We oughta be making friends, Lord knows we've made enough enemies with our fumbling and bumbling. If we have to fight the Chinese, then do it with Walmart, et al getting their crap made in Vietnam and then sit back and watch China turn into the America we have made for ourselves.

Edited October 30, 2013 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

Without doing any research or anything like that on the matter over the years this is my take on the oil thing. Remember in 1967 and 1973 when the Arabs slapped that oil embargo on the US and brought us to our knees? That was the start of this oil thing. Yes, it's all about oil. The US capped most of the existing oil fields or at least reduced their output by about 90% but kept right on exploring for oil in the US. The reasoning was to use other countries oil and save our oil to keep something like the Arab oil embargo from bringing the US to it's knees again. Remember those 3-4 hours waits in line to get 5 gal of gas all over the country. The US decided that would never happen again.

 

Another thing it is my belief that the US is using as much of the oil that the other folks have and saving our oil and one day in the future the rest of the worlds oil will run out and we will still have huge reserves to keep right on polluting the planet.

 

Just my take on it ever since the 1975 and remembering what was said then and it seems as though the US government has kept up with this proposal.

 

You are right about one thing it is not about stopping communism bullshit that it use to be about but it is all about the oil and weapons of mas destruction of course.

 

Larry

[Randy W]

from the Global Times

 

Japan taunts PLA Navy drills

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/821805.shtml

 

China's defense ministry has lodged a solemn representation over a Japanese warship's entering of waters where the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy was holding live-fire drills, noting the provocative move may have led to unexpected emergencies.

The incident took place during China's naval drills in the open seas of the West Pacific, which runs from October 24 to November 1.

Yang Yujun, the ministry's spokesperson, Thursday told a monthly press briefing that China released information about the drills on October 23 through the International Maritime Organization, reminding foreign ships and aircraft to avoid the area.

However, regardless of China's repeated warnings, a warship from the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force broke into the drill zone on the morning of October 25, and stayed in the area for three days.

Meanwhile, Japanese reconnaissance airplanes entered the area several times.

The spokesperson said Japanese warships and aircraft also tailed, reconnoitered and monitored the Chinese naval force during their regular passage.

"The deeds of Japanese warships and aircraft not only interrupted our regular drills, but also posed safety hazards to our ships and aircraft. They may have even caused unexpected emergencies such as miscalculations and accidental damage. This is a highly dangerous provocation," Yang said.