CR1 Visa Denied - No Second Chance - What To Do?

[Palladin]

I think what you are referring to is the fact he never returned after they were married. It appears Palladin has the financial resources to fly over multiple times so if this is a bonafide relationship, why would't have he come multiple times? There is a lot of discussion about whether it is worth it to fly over for the interview, this appears to be one case where it may have made a difference.

 

And I agree with you that Chinese couples have a higher barrier than a Non-Chinese/Chinese couple. I think in the case of a Non-Chinese spouse, the consulate is only worried that there appears to be enough of a relationship/interaction that the Non-Chinese can make/has made an informed marriage choice. I don't think there is a presumption of alternative motives that a Chinese individual or couple has.

 

For a Chinese couple, there is the potential for all types of alternative motives or family/business/friendship ties (essentiallly ¹Øϵ or guanxi) where the marriage is primarily for the immigration benefit.

 

In hindsight yes more trips would have made a difference. They might have reasonable doubts but they should question more to clear those doubts. Money is not the only issue whether one can make frequent trip or not. Job duties, availability of vacation time, child custody duties are more important consideration than mere air ticket money, when considering whether to take vacation. Most people don't have the luxury of have all the money to spend, and all the time available to spend the money, and also don't have to work or take responsibility for something.

 

I submitted abundant documentations explaining how we got to know and all that. They probably never had time to read any of them. The lesson learned is the interviewee really needs to be prepared to present everything alone.

[tsap seui]

Haven't we seen cases of people recently being able to react quickly and get GUZ to reconsider before sending it back and then granting a 2nd interview? Conjencture: It seems that if someone is savvy enough to properly rebut before it gets back to USCIS gets their attention and avoids the roundtrip processing with USCIS on all that, which for some reason, in some cases they have been interested in avoiding. Why they would do something logical for once is beyond me...

Trust me, I tried my hardest to get to the root of the problem the very day after the interview. I came at that VO from 5 different angles and he stone walled me at every turn and lied his way out of the whole situation. Once while he was looking at the computer about our case I saw his face change slightly and he said in a low voice everything is okay with your case....but he wasn't going to help me at all. That is their procedure in Guangzhou...after the interview they aren't supposed to talk to you about your case in anything but very general terms.

 

tsap seui

 

Sorry for what you had to endure, Tsap Seui.

 

Do you still remember on what 5 different angles did you try to attack the problem when meeting up with the VO?

 

Maybe you attacked at the wrong angle. My understanding is by procedure regulation they are not at liberty to reverse a VO's decision as long as the VO seem to acted reasonable given what was available during interview. They can not take additional information even though additional documentations would have helped to debunk the decision.

 

So I figured the angle you needed to attack is something may not went correctly during the interview, that had things gone more normal the outcome could have been different, even given the same information which was available during interview. If you attack that and they agree with you then there is a chance the decision can be reversed, as regulations allow that. But you also have to be careful not to accuse the VO of any wrong doing. The benefit of doubt is the VO acted reasonably and is not at fault. If you accuse the VO of wrong doing they would not even listen to you, as they presume you just acted emotionally without any ground to stand.

 

Fortunately I find plenty of things that truly went wrong during interview. Things that I do not need to blame the VO for, nor do I need to blame my wife. Little things that few even realize but really made a huge difference in the outcome of the interview. I think my arguments convinced they to have a second look at the case. I hope so.

 

Our first interview started off in the toilet from the time my then girlfriend and her 10 year old son walked up to the window. They both smiled and said hello....the 60's something white female VO looked out at them like they were insects and scowled at them. She threw paperwork out the interview window onto the floor, making our son pick it up like he was a dog playing fetch, she yelled, screamed,...stopped Wenyan in mid answer repeatedly...The VO acted like an ass from the get go and tried her best to break her. Luckily Wenyan kept her composure through-out the ordeal. We had trained together for months for that interview. She never let the VO make her lose her composure, no matter what the VO did, she stood there and smiled as the VO threw paperwork at her or yelled, and she answered every question the bitch had in clear terms.

 

I had made 4 trips in less than 10 months to see her, and was there for the interview. The VO would NOT look at my passport as proof of my visits, nor would she look at my updated evolution of relationship letter with it's large notorial stamp from the consulate....they were thrown onto the floor in a huff. I had one year of transcripts that clearly showed I had paid $75,000 in taxes, you can guess at what sort of income I was making.

 

We had all the bases covered, down to when Wenyan was given the blue slip she knew to, and quickly asked the VO what she needed....we had it all right there in easy to read folders with our son ready to produce them to his mom. Every single shred of evidence that I had ever seen in my research that a woman had been asked for on a blue slip....instead...we got the additional processing blue slip which asks for nothing else.

 

Okay, next day I presented myself to American Citizen Hour with 4 pages of questions and a briefcase full of evidence.

 

If I used the word "attacked" the VO I that was a bad term...I was more than polite and soft spoken to the young 30 something white male VO. I learned a long time ago to keep my composure and keep your mind on your goal, no matter how the world is turning to shit around you, I was nothing but polite to the guy as I tried from 5 different angels to simply find out what was wrong. He stone walled me with "I can't talk about specifics on your case". When I said his demeanor changed and his voice got lower as he said, "There is nothing wrong with your case.....we just need to look at it some more" I got the distinct impression that if he had been the interviewer that Wenyan would have gotten the visa. He told me 6 or 7 times that everything was okay, that "in 2 or 3 months your girl friend should be getting a call in letter to bring in her passport and be given the visa." He wouldn't let me give one shred of evidence, listened to all the highlights of our case's evidence, read on his computer intensily, and just smiled and told me everything was okay, she'd be getting a call in letter shortly.

 

They, the State Department VO's, made us wait 10 months before denying her. Then another 13 months before they even had the decency to send the case back to the USCIS.

 

I trusted the guy. We went home and we waited....and we waited....and we waited....10 of the sorriest months of my entire life....to find out from the DOS operator in Washington that we had been denied....I was NEVER told why, or even hinted at why.

 

I did all the congressional inquirerys with two very capable immigration liasons....they never found out why we were given the blue slip, or why we were denied. One liason even tried to pull in a favor from her contact with the State Department....NOPE, the reason why was treated like a closely held military secret.

 

Okay, case goes to the USCIS. They had it for a total of THREE days and send me a letter telling me the case had been reaffirmed and sent back to the consulate. They NEVER sent me a reason why we had been denied. NEVER asked me to rebutt anything...they just reaffirmed it very quickly and sent it back to the jokers in the consulate. Attorney Marc Ellis e-mailed me and said he had never seen the USCIS do something so quickly or even ask for a rebuttal. He said it was apparent to him that the State Departments case against us was on such shakey legal grounds that the USCIS must have laughed at it and sent it right back to them.

 

All of that crap is history now. It is way behind us. We got to America on August 15, 2011. Four years and two weeks after that first God-awful interview. Yes, it is behind me....I awake most nights from nightmares about Vietnam....sometimes I dream I have my hands around the neck of a white 60's something American female.

 

They used speculation and conjecture to force us apart for for over 4 years. I'm tellin' ya guys, you can make all the money in the world, be the smartest cock of the walk, have your ducks in a row, and it is still a crap shoot at the interview. It is all luck. Those VO's can hide behind "no bona fide relationship proven at the interview", Homeland Security", and "221g what the hell evers" on any case they want to. You are simply lucky when they don't use that crap on you....nothing more.

 

Good luck to you Palladin, I hope you have gotten someone within the consulate who can see and think beyond speculation and conjecture and that your wife gets her visa quickly. I love seeing peoples success in Guangzhou, it gives me immense pleasure.

 

tsap seui

Edited November 29, 2011 by tsap seui (see edit history)

[knloregon]

Tsap,

 

Your experience and problems with DOS are legend--- and are now OVER! (thank God!)--History! As I see it, and is always the case, Palladin's problems are different substantially, and I also am among those (like you) who don't fully understand the issues here. One thing, the apparent age difference---how large is it? (maybe I missed that in an earlier post) Larry brings up legitimate problems related to the apparent material aspect of the relationship---if that somehow were conveyed to the VO during the interview, I could see how that could become a red flag. I have no basis to consider a difference from most of us---

 

Caucasian marrying Chinese vs. same race marriage. I hope there isn't a racial aspect. Best we can do is continue to advise Palladin based on our own experiences, and early on---seeking immediate legal advice was one of the best messages---unfortunately, its not clear if Palladin followed that advice.

 

Keep us posted, Palladin, as you can see, there is a lot of experience here dealing with GZ, (even at its absolute worst) and the more specific you can be regarding details, perhaps the more useful the Candle can be for you and your situation.

[Palladin]

tsap seui:

 

Thanks for telling your story. I must say that reading your story was depressive! Very depressive for me. I am glad you have finally put that behind you.

 

Probably at the time you were deceived by their seemingly reassurance. You did not manage to put even a single piece of paper into your case file after the blue slip denial. So whatever reason that trigger them to deny in the first place, remains the same and there was no new material to debunk it or address it.

 

For me things may be a bit different. I acted immediately and swiftly, writting up a few documents, attaching a few key pages of our internet chat log to prove the point, and all that. Initially I could not get the papers to them at all. But eventually I figured out a channel to get the papers to them. I must be fortunately that some one read them, and be compelled to pass the document to the IV official, and they acknowledged having received my appeal documents. Which is good.

 

I hope the appeal documents I managed to get into their hands made the powerful arguments to persuade the AP reviewing official to make a favorable decision and reverse the course of things.

 

I thought I had a strong case, but comparing with yours, tsap seui, your high income level and you guy's preparedness for the interview and all that, I guess no one could claim to have a strong case and no one could claim to be well prepared. If they consider that everything could be fabricated, then what's good of a whole suitcase of evidences? It's just incredible how their mind work. Fortunately there may still be a few rational minds in the Consulate.

 

As for people's advice of seekig legal help. Yes definitely. But legal help would only be useful when it reach the point of USCIS return and the NOIR letter. I am not at that stage yet. The case is still in the Consulate. But I have been doing the research continuously and when the time comes I defnitely will hire a lawyer.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Palladin (see edit history)

[Scott@Hong]

I hope the best for you two and GUZ finally gets it resolved positively. I trully believe there is no real reason anyone gets denied other then the VO having a "feeling" the relationship is not real. Nobody will ever know the inner workings of the visa process, if it was public knowledge it would be to easy for scammers to get visas. If the VO has a that "feeling" I think they just deny it and see if you come back for round 2 and show the ability and desire to fight their decision. It is rare to see denials when people fight the original decisions and cases get reaffirmed by USCIS and sent back to GUZ.

 

Consider yourself lucky on one point, because if I bought my wife expensive gifts I would be walking around with black eyes and fat lips from all the mop slaps. "Stupid man why you spend so much money?"

[tsap seui]

tsap seui:

 

Thanks for telling your story. I must say that reading your story was depressive! Very depressive for me. I am glad you have finally put that behind you.

 

Probably at the time you were deceived by their seemingly reassurance. You did not manage to put even a single piece of paper into your case file after the blue slip denial. So whatever reason that trigger them to deny in the first place, remains the same and there was no new material to debunk it or address it.

 

For me things may be a bit different. I acted immediately and swiftly, writting up a few documents, attaching a few key pages of our internet chat log to prove the point, and all that. Initially I could not get the papers to them at all. But eventually I figured out a channel to get the papers to them. I must be fortunately that some one read them, and be compelled to pass the document to the IV official, and they acknowledged having received my appeal documents. Which is good.

 

I hope the appeal documents I managed to get into their hands made the powerful arguments to persuade the AP reviewing official to make a favorable decision and reverse the course of things.

 

I thought I had a strong case, but comparing with yours, tsap seui, your high income level and you guy's preparedness for the interview and all that, I guess no one could claim to have a strong case and no one could claim to be well prepared. If they consider that everything could be fabricated, then what's good of a whole suitcase of evidences? It's just incredible how their mind work. Fortunately there may still be a few rational minds in the Consulate.

 

As for people's advice of seekig legal help. Yes definitely. But legal help would only be useful when it reach the point of USCIS return and the NOIR letter. I am not at that stage yet. The case is still in the Consulate. But I have been doing the research continuously and when the time comes I defnitely will hire a lawyer.

 

It's been great to see you have the fortune of having someone look at your paperwork while the case is still in the consulate. I tried my best to find out what was wrong, what could I give you, why are you doing this? It was just never meant to be for us. In the 10 months before the denial I sent Guangzhou over 75 e-mails trying to find out what was wrong, what can I send you, etc. I never gave up....even had congressional inquiry after congressional inquiry from two different congressmen's liasons. Nothing worked.

 

I hope this works out quickly for you guys. You never stop trying, there is always that hope that no matter what happened before your case, you may get lucky and someone with a brain and a heart takes a look at your case and sees that the VO's speculation and conjecture was wrong in your case. You've been given a gift....a rare gift. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys.

 

I have to laugh and say, please don't get depressed reading our crazy story, yes, it could happen to anyone but we never gave up on each other, or our fight against the State Department....our goal stayed in focus even during the bleakest times and now we are in the ranks of one of the closest and happiest couples around. Everyday I look at the lil' rabbit and say thanks for our luck to find each other, and then to survive the governments cruel intrusion into our bona fide relationship. The ordeal sure showed us what we were made of, and how strong our bond was.

 

Maybe I should send ol' Guangzhou a "thank you" e-mail.

 

tsap seui

 

This mess will work out for you guys. Everyone gets the visa sooner or later. My hope is your's comes sooner.

[knloregon]

Palladin, Tsap's is an extreme case, in fact the most extreme case that most of us are aware of--- but you seem to think you can do this on your own, and many here have suggested otherwise.

 

You mention guanxi in your early post, and while its not exactly that, immigration attorneys practicing in GZ (and remember ONLY those licensed to practice in US Federal Court---not some guy off the street) ---these are the legal representatives with influence and long-standing relationships with the State Department lawyers at the GZ Consulate who are in a position to influence your outcome---closest thing you are going to get to guanxi in American law.

 

I think Tsap (by relating his horror story to you) and others are trying to urge you to seek legal representation, BEFORE your case is sent back to the States. In the meantime, t would be helpful if we knew more of the details about your relationship, and how those facts were presented at the interview.

[Lee VD]

Palladin, Tsap's is an extreme case, in fact the most extreme case that most of us are aware of--- but you seem to think you can do this on your own, and many here have suggested otherwise.

 

... and this was during another time, some darker days in the recent past when these things were more common. It is through the perseverence of him and others like him that have managed to start cracking the concrete wall that has been a barrier to those in love from being together and made it a little better for those today.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Lee VD (see edit history)

[Palladin]

I think Tsap (by relating his horror story to you) and others are trying to urge you to seek legal representation, BEFORE your case is sent back to the States. In the meantime, t would be helpful if we knew more of the details about your relationship, and how those facts were presented at the interview.

 

I did try to contact a few lawyers and no one seemed to have a particular connection, or guanxi, with Consular officials. It would seem to me that they would be helpful at the USCIS appealing process, but not yet now. Seeking such guanxi may be backfiring if I am not careful.

 

Our relationship is every bit normal and strong as in any love story. They may consider big age difference a red flag. I never meant to find girl so much younger than me but it just so happened that we found we were very good match for each other. I have plenty of explanations where each of us came from and how we get to fall in love with each other, in the documentation submitted with the original petition, which had they read would have cleared away any perceived red flag.

 

As for presentation during interview, there was virtually none. My wife wasn't well prepared at all. The interview went just like a simple Q&A, with each answer given in short and brief form with no elaboration, which didn't help at all. I was assuming that they would have read my documentations and have a basic idea of our case to begin the interview and then it would go smoothly and quickly. That assumption was totally wrong. It seems they based their decision almost entirely on my wife's presentation during questioning, as they had hadly read my documents yet.

 

There is a good lesson to be learned from my wife's experience. Don't take anything for granted when it comes to immigration visa process.

[warpedbored]

Marc Ellis and Eunice are very familiar with the consulate. Eunice is very knowledgeable about the visa process. she's been in the visa business for years. Since her and Marc teamed up they have a 100% success rate. You can't do better than that.

[Randy W]

In any event, it won't do you any good to be cajoling anyone you can find into believing you have a rock-solid case which is going to be overturned any day now.

 

The word 'explanation' is VERY close to the word 'excuse' in the dictionary, and I believe the same is often true in immigration matters. You need to to be painting a picture of a loving relationship, not explaining away/bringing attention to rough edges and red flags.

 

We have every reason to believe your relationship, but what you need to be doing is getting someone to look at your case objectively, to see what went wrong. All we have to go by is what you tell us, which is NOTHING is wrong. You need someone to look at your entire case, as filed, and tell you what needs to be done. That won't happen here, it won't happen on VJ, and it won't happen on 001. We don't have access to your file, and what you tell us is not an objective view.

[knloregon]

" I did try to contact a few lawyers and no one seemed to have a particular connection, or guanxi, with Consular officials.." Palladin! read carefully what I wrote. I'm not suggesting guanxi in the true Chinese sense, 'I scratch your back, you scratch mine' "Consular officials" are usually NOT lawyers, rather career State Department employees.

 

----An immigration lawyer would review your case (as Randy just suggested) and find LEGAL weaknesses, in the VO's findings either as a matter of Federal law, or immigration policy as its enforced in Guangzhou ---and then present those weaknesses to their counterparts---who they know very well----and who also happen to be (State) lawyers. Its a legal negotiation, it resembles guanxi only to the extent that they can do it----you can not.

 

But I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to wait until your case is shipped back to the US. Any advantage a GZ immigration lawyer may have (trusted contacts on the other side) ---is lost, and from then on, you are dealing with a very slow moving bureaucratic machine..

[dnoblett]

I am sure it was brought up before to consider Marc Ellis, he is a US attorney who knows that consulate well and has people in that city that may help.

Edited December 1, 2011 by dnoblett (see edit history)

[Palladin]

But I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to wait until your case is shipped back to the US. Any advantage a GZ immigration lawyer may have (trusted contacts on the other side) ---is lost, and from then on, you are dealing with a very slow moving bureaucratic machine..

 

I don't just sit back and wait and do nothing. I have made all the effort to contact the Consulate and actually contacted Marc Ellis' associate, too. There is good hope that they will keep the case in the Consulate and give us a second interview. This is what I am hoping for, not just hoping for but fighting for. Failing that and if the case is indeed returned to USCIS I will give it a serious thought hiring a lawyer to help with the appeal.

[david_dawei]

I am hoping for the best. The fact of the matter is my wife was handed a white note indicating 221(g) and that they are sending the files back to USCIS, after a less than 10 minutes interview. The white slip according to all that's been told here, must be an "out and out denial".

 

I was able to get some explanation documents in and even get the IV acknowleded that my documents were passed over to the interviewing officer (or maybe they mean the officer doing Administrative Review). From that point on the response I got from IV are more and more positive. They assured me repeatedly they are not sending the files back to USCIS while its undergoing AP; They assured that my wife will be notified once the AP is finished and the case is continued (I guess "case continued" means continued action at the Consulate, not sending back to USCIS, because sending back to USCIS would mean "case suspended" not case continued).

Yes, at the time of issue, a white means 'out and out denial'. That it is in AP means by logic then cannot be sent back to the US or do anything else. So I would not read too much into AP right now except that it is in AP.

 

2. Document hand in the prior day also went wrong. My wife was the last one and she was rushed. Critical files were not taken, and by all odd the VO did not have much chance to review the case files before start of interview.

This is a legit reason for AP, to review additional documents. But it's not clear if those documents will support your claim or theirs. They are quite detailed in their write-ups for denial and anything further they can get their hands on could work in reverse. So what one submits really has to be of utmost care.

 

 

3. Strong evidences to directly debunk the non-bona fide relationship finding. Specifically excertion from

our long internet chat logs where my wife showed a hesitation to move to the USA, and I was the one persuading her everything will be OK and she will like the life in the USA. At a point I emailed the entire log of 1000+ pages and I am not sure if they get it. But it demonstrate the point that the logs are original, not faked. I have no reason to fake it myself

And here is the problem, IMO: You submitted evidence to support their point of view; that she is hesitant and doesn't want to move to the US is damaging to the relationship and the intent of immigration. Her last Q&A answer was "I am willing to marry him"... That is enough in most VO's eyes to see the relationship as YOUR attempt to get a lady to the US. She appears to have little interest by her answer and then you submitted chat logs proving it for the VO... You said translation is not 100% but this is YOUR own words explaining your wife's answer.

 

 

 

They might have reasonable doubts but they should question more to clear those doubts. -- Quote

And what if they did not have much doubt? And what if the answers provide them sufficient support for their doubt? This are rhetorical but I think your wife's answers gave them enough feeling for the white they expected to issue.

 

 

I submitted abundant documentations explaining how we got to know and all that. They probably never had time to read any of them. -- Quote

I would not be so cynical concerning their time. If they don't have time for something, they use AP or AR, not a white slip.

 

 

The lesson learned is the interviewee really needs to be prepared to present everything alone. -- Quote

Yes... This is the first rule of interview preparation and is probably the main reason my wife averted a white: After 40 minutes of questions they found they could not get her to falter on a single question. I often emphasized to her that she stood alone in front of the VO and only she answers, not me; that she is there to answer to the documents I SUBMITTED and verify it.

 

The bottom line in preparation is that one must be able to objective look at their own case and prepare accordingly. Prepare for the weaknesses; practice the Q&A; get the facts straight from original petition submission to interview answers. Some will get 4 questions and others 40. On paper, my relationship is rather a no-brainer but they looked beyond the relationship to possible 'patterns' and I was betting on them doing this. Metaphorically speaking: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Edited December 5, 2011 by david_dawei (see edit history)