Freedom of religion in China

[knloregon]

This is an interesting topic, Larry thanks for starting it. Both religion and art have a long history of being subversive in the empires of the past. Chinese opera, in particular, so often the subversive message, and perceived threat to the Empire was subtly mixed between the lines. Some things in China continue on, in a centuries old continuum. The 'gang of four' were first, artists---but allowed (unleashed) by Mao to work their terror in the name of freedom of expression. China's leadership is mixed on the explosive growth of Christianity currently taking place---likely the greatest # of conversions in the world.

 

Yesterday's WSJ quotes the Pew Research Center that between 50 and 70 million Chinese worship in house churches---those not approved by the gov. With more than 25 million in state-sanctioned churches. WSJ added an interesting stat to the mix---there are only 60 million party members total in China. (my family being among them) . But even there, and in my experience---the old school---before the corruption (father-in-law) ---sees a real advantage to China in non-political spirituality --- and specifically Christianity ---- (since Buddhism in the past, has also delivered subtle messages against the the Empire...).

 

Sadly, the subject of the WSJ article was the detention of house church members on Easter (for holding their Easter service publicly outdoors)---the day of my Baptism...

[chilton747]

 

 

No problem Charles. She is a Christian. When my wife was in college she said that one day while in the library she read about this man named Jesus and could not get him off her mind for many days. So she felt a compelling urge that she could not resist to learn more and more about him. When she had exhausted everything that she could find in the library and after she graduated from collage about 6 months later she got a job. Her company was visited by many foreign engineers from many countries, not only from the US. When the opportunity arouse in private she would inquire about this man named Jesus. The more that she found out the more she wanted to know. She eventually acquired a bible from one of them and started reading it on a regular basis. She never had a Chinese teacher or mentor as far as her learning about the bible. She never went to any of these illegal gatherings at other Chinese people's homes but she did gradually find girlfriends of hers that knew Jesus as well. Her mother and father does not believe in religion but highly respect her beliefs.

 

I remember the second time that I ever went to China to see her it was just before my birthday and I wanted to surprise her. She did not know that I was coming I had told her that I had to be out of town for a few days. I checked into the 21 Century Hotel, which is only about 100 yards from where she worked, and went to the lobby and waited for her to get off work and come out. When she came out I followed her out to the bus stop and got very close behind her and tapped her on the butt once with my finger them twice and then she turned around to bless me out and there I stood. The look on her face was priceless. When I tapped her on the butt with my finger some old Chinese lady standing very close by was giving me the mean eye. I thought she was going to sock me one.

 

Back to my original point. We went to my room and the very first thing that she said to me when we got inside was can we get on the foot of the bed and will you pray for us. Certainly we can. One of my promises to her after we decided to get married was would I take her to church whenever she wanted to go once we got to America. So far I have never refused to take her.

 

I have to tell one other thing here. When she turned around at the bus station with the surprised look on her face she said you don't know what you have done. I ask what do you mean? She said that I just bought a airplane ticket today and am suppose to leave tonight to America to see you for your birthday. Good thing that I did not delay in seeing her that afternoon.

 

I have another interesting story to tell about the experience of being invited to church once here in America and then being called back 20 minutes later and told that we would not be welcome as we were a mixed race couple. She was devastated. That's another story though.

 

Larry

 

 

Nice story and thank you very much for sharing! I can certainly understand her quest for knowledge of Jesus.

 

Would like to hear the story about the church that told y'all to leave whenever you get time.

[Mick]

 

No problem Charles. She is a Christian. When my wife was in college she said that one day while in the library she read about this man named Jesus and could not get him off her mind for many days. So she felt a compelling urge that she could not resist to learn more and more about him. When she had exhausted everything that she could find in the library and after she graduated from collage about 6 months later she got a job. Her company was visited by many foreign engineers from many countries, not only from the US. When the opportunity arouse in private she would inquire about this man named Jesus. The more that she found out the more she wanted to know. She eventually acquired a bible from one of them and started reading it on a regular basis. She never had a Chinese teacher or mentor as far as her learning about the bible. She never went to any of these illegal gatherings at other Chinese people's homes but she did gradually find girlfriends of hers that knew Jesus as well. Her mother and father does not believe in religion but highly respect her beliefs.

 

I remember the second time that I ever went to China to see her it was just before my birthday and I wanted to surprise her. She did not know that I was coming I had told her that I had to be out of town for a few days. I checked into the 21 Century Hotel, which is only about 100 yards from where she worked, and went to the lobby and waited for her to get off work and come out. When she came out I followed her out to the bus stop and got very close behind her and tapped her on the butt once with my finger them twice and then she turned around to bless me out and there I stood. The look on her face was priceless. When I tapped her on the butt with my finger some old Chinese lady standing very close by was giving me the mean eye. I thought she was going to sock me one.

 

Back to my original point. We went to my room and the very first thing that she said to me when we got inside was can we get on the foot of the bed and will you pray for us. Certainly we can. One of my promises to her after we decided to get married was would I take her to church whenever she wanted to go once we got to America. So far I have never refused to take her.

 

I have to tell one other thing here. When she turned around at the bus station with the surprised look on her face she said you don't know what you have done. I ask what do you mean? She said that I just bought a airplane ticket today and am suppose to leave tonight to America to see you for your birthday. Good thing that I did not delay in seeing her that afternoon.

 

I have another interesting story to tell about the experience of being invited to church once here in America and then being called back 20 minutes later and told that we would not be welcome as we were a mixed race couple. She was devastated. That's another story though.

 

Larry

 

What a great story, Larry! Especially the surprise visit and the little episode at the bus stop. I would have loved to have seen her face. And please, would also love to hear about being told to not attend a church service because you were a mixed-race couple. We live in a part of the country that helped invent bigotry and never had that problem.

 

As for religion in China, I mentioned earlier that Li was Christian long before we ever met. She entered into a positive, life-changing relationship with the Master by reading the New Testament in general and the Sermon on the Mount especially. If anyone is interested in reading about Christianity in China and its increasing impact on culture and society, I highly recommend David Aikman's "Jesus in Beijing." Aikman was Times' Beijing Bureau Chief for many years and has an interesting perspective on religious matters over there.

Edited April 27, 2011 by dnoblett
Quote tags fixed (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

This is an interesting topic, Larry thanks for starting it. Both religion and art have a long history of being subversive in the empires of the past. Chinese opera, in particular, so often the subversive message, and perceived threat to the Empire was subtly mixed between the lines. Some things in China continue on, in a centuries old continuum. The 'gang of four' were first, artists---but allowed (unleashed) by Mao to work their terror in the name of freedom of expression. China's leadership is mixed on the explosive growth of Christianity currently taking place---likely the greatest # of conversions in the world.

 

Yesterday's WSJ quotes the Pew Research Center that between 50 and 70 million Chinese worship in house churches---those not approved by the gov. With more than 25 million in state-sanctioned churches. WSJ added an interesting stat to the mix---there are only 60 million party members total in China. (my family being among them) . But even there, and in my experience---the old school---before the corruption (father-in-law) ---sees a real advantage to China in non-political spirituality --- and specifically Christianity ---- (since Buddhism in the past, has also delivered subtle messages against the the Empire...).

 

Sadly, the subject of the WSJ article was the detention of house church members on Easter (for holding their Easter service publicly outdoors)---the day of my Baptism...

 

Kim, Thank you for this post I found it very interesting.

 

Congratulations on getting Baptized. I will never forget the day that I was baptized.

 

Larry

[amberjack1234]

Thank you guys. I will probably post on the church event tomorrow. I have just gotten home from being gone all day on the road, to the VA hospital, and am tired now.

 

Larry

 

*****EDITED TO ADD THIS POST*****

 

This is actually two stories in one so it is kind of long but they were related so I decided to tell all three.

 

# 1. Here is the Church story for those that ask. On my wife’s third trip to America she had been her for about a week. One of my friends called me and invited us to attend his church. They were having a gospel quartet singing at his church and he wanted us to attend. He knew that we had recently married. Before my last wife died he and his family use to come over to our home and we visited his home as well as going fishing together. This guy use to work for me before I retired and use to jokingly say that he wanted to be just like me when he grew up.

 

The wife was elated to say the least that she and I were going to church and not only that but had been invited. She was floating around the house with all smiles on her face. Then in about 30 minutes the phone rang again. It was Mark again. He says you know Chief I told the wife about inviting you and your new wife to our church and she said that I should have ask our pastor first so I called him. He did not think that it was a good idea at all so he ask me to call you and let you know that a mixed married couple was not welcome in their church. I simply said OK that’s great Mark and hung up the phone and have never seen him since and that was almost 11 years ago now.

 

Now as you might imagine I am a Baptist and this was a Baptist church. Now the wife is very, very disappointed so I say let me call some of the local churches here in our little village. I called two and got the same ole er um, mmm, I am not sure how the congregation would feel about it thing but I’m OK with it. At this time the wife was crying her eyes out with a completely broken heart. I knew that I had to do something and quick. I called the Catholic church in town and talked to one of the priest. He said come on to our church everyone is welcome here the only thing is that we can not pray for you and your wife but you are certainly welcome to come here to worship.

 

So on Sunday we went and she absolutely enjoyed it and have been going there ever since. We have a doctor friend that is a Baptist and he is married to a Chinese girl too. He told us that he has never had any trouble at his church that we were welcome to come to his church. At this point the wife was not interested in the Baptist churches. She has not shown any interest in becoming a Catholic. As many of you know it is kind of complicated, but is rather just happy to worship in a house of the Lord. She says that she feels closer to God there. She loves to go to church.

 

# 2. YES, Charles, bigotry is absolutely alive and well in our part of the woods for sure. I had a customer two days ago that is a retired bank president that I have know for 35 years and he and I were talking about this very issue and I told him this same story. His answer was that he THOUGHT that we would be welcome at his church, Methodist, that, get this, we just had a couple of black people attend our church several weeks ago. Well the way that I feel about that is if they were truly welcome there would be black members rather than just have one or two visits by minorities per year.

 

We don’t have as MUCH of this bigotry issue here locally fortunately as there is in other areas around where we live. You see this is a military town. There are 202,000 Marines plus their families stationed at Camp Lejeune and the town has only 25,000 people in it so they are kind of outnumbered. As you can imagine there are more mixed marriages in that community atmosphere than there are in the average southern town.

 

Larry

Edited April 28, 2011 by donahso
add Larry's post lost when system was down (see edit history)

[carl.hops]

I recently asked my students what extent religion had because a lot of them talk about being Christian, that and here in Tianjin we have a large French catholic church right next to the major shopping street. There are regular services there. The only limitation that they told me about was, you can't solicit religion, that means no going to schools and handing out flyers or bibles. IMHO I think thats a good law to have, keep religion and state separate. Keep it private.

[Beachey]

. I called the Catholic church in town and talked to one of the priest. He said come on to our church everyone is welcome here the only thing is that we can not pray for you and your wife but you are certainly welcome to come here to worship.

 

 

 

 

After 14 years of Catholic school, I wonder if this is really what the priest said. As least as I was taught, there is nothing stopping a Catholic from praying from you. What you can not do unless you are Catholic in good standing is take Communion during Mass. When my brother got married, he told those present who were not Catholic that they could approach him during Communion and he would bless them which certainly is a form of prayer.

 

I no longer practice but I am glad it gives your wife a place to pray.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Beachey (see edit history)

[amberjack1234]

. I called the Catholic church in town and talked to one of the priest. He said come on to our church everyone is welcome here the only thing is that we can not pray for you and your wife but you are certainly welcome to come here to worship.

 

 

 

 

After 14 years of Catholic school, I wonder if this is really what the priest said. As least as I was taught, there is nothing stopping a Catholic from praying from you. What you can not do unless you are Catholic in good standing is take Communion during Mass. When my brother got married, he told those present who were not Catholic that they could approach him during Communion and he would bless them which certainly is a form of prayer.

 

I no longer practice but I am glad it gives your wife a place to pray.

 

This certainly proved out again later on. My wife was returning to China about 4 months later and she went up to the priest after the service, not the same one that I spoke to on the phone, was over and ask him if he would say a prayer for her and he said that he could not but that there was something other than a prayer that he could recite to her from a prayer book if he could find it. So he looked through the book and found it and recited it to her and she was happy.

 

Larry

[chilton747]

Thanks for the stories Larry!! It's just hard for me to believe that churches would not allow someone that wanted to seek God. After all isn't that kinda what they are there for?

 

Not sure why the Catholic priest would not pray for your wife. Don't know much about the Catholic rituals. I thought everyone was able to pray for anyone.

 

My mother was a hard core southern Baptist. Need I say more?

[amberjack1234]

Thanks for the stories Larry!! It's just hard for me to believe that churches would not allow someone that wanted to seek God. After all isn't that kinda what they are there for?

 

Not sure why the Catholic priest would not pray for your wife. Don't know much about the Catholic rituals. I thought everyone was able to pray for anyone.

 

My mother was a hard core southern Baptist. Need I say more?

 

Me to, me to especially since I was born here and know almost everyone of them. Sure does open the eyes.

 

Larry

[Guest ExChinaExpat]

There are several Christian churches and private bible studies in China. They meet, they assemble, talk about their faith and belief. They buy and sell Christian books, but have little tolerance for someone who sings off-key. Most Chinese I've met have no interest whatsoever in Christianity, or other religions like it. Buddhism, yes, maybe.

[chilton747]

There are several Christian churches and private bible studies in China. They meet, they assemble, talk about their faith and belief. They buy and sell Christian books, but have little tolerance for someone who sings off-key. Most Chinese I've met have no interest whatsoever in Christianity, or other religions like it. Buddhism, yes, maybe.

 

 

I've been in a big Church in China and believe me they were singing off key. Now my definition of off key is anything other than perfect. My ear hears this as I have been a musician most all my life.

 

So just far out of key do they get before they are stopped?

[Beachey]

Thanks for the stories Larry!! It's just hard for me to believe that churches would not allow someone that wanted to seek God. After all isn't that kinda what they are there for?

 

Not sure why the Catholic priest would not pray for your wife. Don't know much about the Catholic rituals. I thought everyone was able to pray for anyone.

 

My mother was a hard core southern Baptist. Need I say more?

 

Me to, me to especially since I was born here and know almost everyone of them. Sure does open the eyes.

 

Larry

 

 

This may be the priest's reaction to serving in an area dominated by other Christian faiths. In the areas I have lived, typically where Catholicism is in the majority, most priests tend to be more ecumenical though this can vary priest to priest.. I just did some research and technically if a Catholic prays for a non-Catholic, they should be asking as part of the prayer for their conversion to Catholicism. In most cases, the non-Catholic would find this highly offensive which is likely why the priest in question is being so explicit about it.