White denial

[david_dawei]

Hi guys, Qingyun had her interview this morning. She was nervous, but felt everything was OK. As the interview progressed the VO asked to see our emails. She said his demeanor changed and pointed at the bottom of the pages where the date when I copied it is located. He told her the emails were not legitimate, gave her a white denial slip and sent her on her way. There is no explanation written, just the standard nonbonafide relationship form letter. As you can imagine, Qingyun is an emotional mess. Now I have another reason to hate Guangzhou! Jeff

 

I am so sorry to hear this for you guys. I'm not sure I understand however. When you printed these emails, did you print the entire page, including the "header?" The header contains:

 

From:

To:

Date:

Time of Day,

 

...and so on

 

Did that appear on these copies?

 

Yes, on the actual email it did have the header. When we would use yahoo email, I printed the letter I received from Qingyun and behide it would be the mechanical translation. I think this is what the VO is questioning, because the translation page would just have the date at the top and nothing at the bottom. Thanks, Jeff

 

 

 

 

I can give you some ideas on what happened here, it appears to the VO that you and your SO have communication issues that you either cannot read/write/speak Chinese and for her the issue is that she cannot read/write/speak English. One issue that crosses the mind of the VOs is that, since they don't have good communications how is it possible that they have a true relationship? How can any two people who don't speak and understand each other maintain a true relationship, which is why you may have received the white slip.

 

The fact that you used a translation service/website only further indicates that you two have communication problems. I do hope you are able to resolve the issue, and IMHO it's your best interests to stay with your SO after the denial. Good luck.

communication,isn't just about langauge....there are many ways to communicate......Helen Keller couldn't speak ,she did manage to communicate thru sign langauage,I think its BS about langauge as the only vehicle of communicating,most couples in America speak the same langauge,sit in front of a tv set, and don't say a dam word to each other the whole night.....and this is considered a bonafide relationship.......i know you're trying to see with the "VO'S" EYES,but its pure shit.This guy probably talks more to his girl,than the VO talks to his/her spouse...whether its a translator,whats the difference?....theres people that can't speak,but use sign language......they are not communicating?

some of us use english/chinese/sign language/grunts/smiles/tears/touch/computer/crayons/translators/who cares how people communicate,at the end of the day...two people managed to communicate......its human desire to communicate and to be heard....two people will find a way to communicate !!!!!

hey,just my 2 cents.

a dog and a cat might be able to communicate but doesn't mean they are meant to be... Time to let go of all the ranting and get serious about understanding the visa game... yes, it's a game on some small level; and if you don't play by their rules you strike out each time at bat.

 

I'd spend my time really figuring out what it takes and less time on attempting to justify our own logic.

[tsap seui]

 

 

 

Ours is 6/4,i am also afraid,I have 756 emails ,that i am concerned,only shows the email address,and the date the email was sent,i am thinking i should have the full header on them,the isp address,where the email bounced to and from etc.....

may God be with us all.

 

Jimi

 

Good luck with your interview Jimi, and good luck to you others who will soon have an interview or are trying to overcome a blue or white slip.

 

tsap seui

 

Soon...Sept. 2010.. to jump into the shark tank once again and file another application

[Bert]

I can give you some ideas on what happened here, it appears to the VO that you and your SO have communication issues that you either cannot read/write/speak Chinese and for her the issue is that she cannot read/write/speak English. One issue that crosses the mind of the VOs is that, since they don't have good communications how is it possible that they have a true relationship? How can any two people who don't speak and understand each other maintain a true relationship, which is why you may have received the white slip.

 

The fact that you used a translation service/website only further indicates that you two have communication problems. I do hope you are able to resolve the issue, and IMHO it's your best interests to stay with your SO after the denial. Good luck.

 

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. The machine translation sounds like a red flag that might have sent the VO looking for an excuse the deny this petition.

 

I am really sorry to hear about this case ending in a white. It sounds like the VO made a snap-decision instead of attempting to thoroughly investigate the matter. I think that is unacceptable -- denials should not be so easy to hand out.

 

Aside from the language issue, were there any other circumstances that might have put some doubt in the VO's mind as to the legitimacy of your relationship? I'm wondering if there might have been additional concerns...

 

Well my cage is officially rattled. We're up on 6/02 and I'm afraid of how they will interpret our emails

 

Ours is 6/4,i am also afraid,I have 756 emails ,that i am concerned,only shows the email address,and the date the email was sent,i am thinking i should have the full header on them,the isp address,where the email bounced to and from etc.....

may God be with us all.

 

Jimi

 

It's a horrible miscarriage of the process and I hope Jeff and Qingyun have the perseverance to overcome. I don't know if Jie Lin could survive a denial. We don't even have an interview date set yet and she has trouble sleeping at night.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I think you have to be careful about providing too much information. You don't want to give them the rope to hang you. It seems that the problem with Jeff and Qingyun was something the VO picked up in the header. Again, maybe I am wrong, but I plan only to provide a sampling of emails, emails that I select for the VO to read, rather than leaving to chance to the VO what emails he chooses to read. I will provide a screen shot of the sender, addressee, subject, date, and content.

 

Best of luck to you,

 

Bert.

[heyjimi]

Hi guys, Qingyun had her interview this morning. She was nervous, but felt everything was OK. As the interview progressed the VO asked to see our emails. She said his demeanor changed and pointed at the bottom of the pages where the date when I copied it is located. He told her the emails were not legitimate, gave her a white denial slip and sent her on her way. There is no explanation written, just the standard nonbonafide relationship form letter. As you can imagine, Qingyun is an emotional mess. Now I have another reason to hate Guangzhou! Jeff

 

I am so sorry to hear this for you guys. I'm not sure I understand however. When you printed these emails, did you print the entire page, including the "header?" The header contains:

 

From:

To:

Date:

Time of Day,

 

...and so on

 

Did that appear on these copies?

 

Yes, on the actual email it did have the header. When we would use yahoo email, I printed the letter I received from Qingyun and behide it would be the mechanical translation. I think this is what the VO is questioning, because the translation page would just have the date at the top and nothing at the bottom. Thanks, Jeff

 

 

 

 

I can give you some ideas on what happened here, it appears to the VO that you and your SO have communication issues that you either cannot read/write/speak Chinese and for her the issue is that she cannot read/write/speak English. One issue that crosses the mind of the VOs is that, since they don't have good communications how is it possible that they have a true relationship? How can any two people who don't speak and understand each other maintain a true relationship, which is why you may have received the white slip.

 

The fact that you used a translation service/website only further indicates that you two have communication problems. I do hope you are able to resolve the issue, and IMHO it's your best interests to stay with your SO after the denial. Good luck.

communication,isn't just about langauge....there are many ways to communicate......Helen Keller couldn't speak ,she did manage to communicate thru sign langauage,I think its BS about langauge as the only vehicle of communicating,most couples in America speak the same langauge,sit in front of a tv set, and don't say a dam word to each other the whole night.....and this is considered a bonafide relationship.......i know you're trying to see with the "VO'S" EYES,but its pure shit.This guy probably talks more to his girl,than the VO talks to his/her spouse...whether its a translator,whats the difference?....theres people that can't speak,but use sign language......they are not communicating?

some of us use english/chinese/sign language/grunts/smiles/tears/touch/computer/crayons/translators/who cares how people communicate,at the end of the day...two people managed to communicate......its human desire to communicate and to be heard....two people will find a way to communicate !!!!!

hey,just my 2 cents.

a dog and a cat might be able to communicate but doesn't mean they are meant to be... Time to let go of all the ranting and get serious about understanding the visa game... yes, it's a game on some small level; and if you don't play by their rules you strike out each time at bat.

 

I'd spend my time really figuring out what it takes and less time on attempting to justify our own logic.

 

Dude,we are talking about humans,not cats and dogs,I been in this game for two years,trust me i know the game very well !!!!

[heyjimi]

 

 

 

Ours is 6/4,i am also afraid,I have 756 emails ,that i am concerned,only shows the email address,and the date the email was sent,i am thinking i should have the full header on them,the isp address,where the email bounced to and from etc.....

may God be with us all.

 

Jimi

 

Good luck with your interview Jimi, and good luck to you others who will soon have an interview or are trying to overcome a blue or white slip.

 

tsap seui

 

Soon...Sept. 2010.. to jump into the shark tank once again and file another application

 

Thanks Tsap seui

[heyjimi]

Hi guys, Qingyun had her interview this morning. She was nervous, but felt everything was OK. As the interview progressed the VO asked to see our emails. She said his demeanor changed and pointed at the bottom of the pages where the date when I copied it is located. He told her the emails were not legitimate, gave her a white denial slip and sent her on her way. There is no explanation written, just the standard nonbonafide relationship form letter. As you can imagine, Qingyun is an emotional mess. Now I have another reason to hate Guangzhou! Jeff

 

I am so sorry to hear this for you guys. I'm not sure I understand however. When you printed these emails, did you print the entire page, including the "header?" The header contains:

 

From:

To:

Date:

Time of Day,

 

...and so on

 

Did that appear on these copies?

 

Yes, on the actual email it did have the header. When we would use yahoo email, I printed the letter I received from Qingyun and behide it would be the mechanical translation. I think this is what the VO is questioning, because the translation page would just have the date at the top and nothing at the bottom. Thanks, Jeff

 

 

 

 

I can give you some ideas on what happened here, it appears to the VO that you and your SO have communication issues that you either cannot read/write/speak Chinese and for her the issue is that she cannot read/write/speak English. One issue that crosses the mind of the VOs is that, since they don't have good communications how is it possible that they have a true relationship? How can any two people who don't speak and understand each other maintain a true relationship, which is why you may have received the white slip.

 

The fact that you used a translation service/website only further indicates that you two have communication problems. I do hope you are able to resolve the issue, and IMHO it's your best interests to stay with your SO after the denial. Good luck.

communication,isn't just about langauge....there are many ways to communicate......Helen Keller couldn't speak ,she did manage to communicate thru sign langauage,I think its BS about langauge as the only vehicle of communicating,most couples in America speak the same langauge,sit in front of a tv set, and don't say a dam word to each other the whole night.....and this is considered a bonafide relationship.......i know you're trying to see with the "VO'S" EYES,but its pure shit.This guy probably talks more to his girl,than the VO talks to his/her spouse...whether its a translator,whats the difference?....theres people that can't speak,but use sign language......they are not communicating?

some of us use english/chinese/sign language/grunts/smiles/tears/touch/computer/crayons/translators/who cares how people communicate,at the end of the day...two people managed to communicate......its human desire to communicate and to be heard....two people will find a way to communicate !!!!!

hey,just my 2 cents.

a dog and a cat might be able to communicate but doesn't mean they are meant to be... Time to let go of all the ranting and get serious about understanding the visa game... yes, it's a game on some small level; and if you don't play by their rules you strike out each time at bat.

 

I'd spend my time really figuring out what it takes and less time on attempting to justify our own logic.

 

My Friend I wish the rules were well defined,as you seem to think they are.....heres the game,one man gets up to bat,hes given three strikes before hes out,the next man gets up to bat,he gets one ball thrown at him,he swings,strike one your out....han? i thought i had 3 strikes before i am out....the umpire is in a pissy mood,decides your out !!! end of the story. walk away and not be pissed off? come on....human nature it aint happened you're going to be pissed off....ok human nature kicks in again.....you get your next chance at bat......and you figure,i will probably get one strike and i am out.......like a son of b**** out of hell,Youre going to hit that ball right out of the ballpark....homerun.......one can only hope that the umpire sees it the way you do.......he has the final say....and in guz....there is a good chance he can say.....sorry...it was a "foul ball". I wish,the rules were well defined as you suggest,unforunetly they are not,and if you was to be honest,you would have to agree.that my friend is a fact.

[Stepbrow]

Having gone through this experience, I have a few comments. It is common, when issuing a white slip for the ConOff to just refer to one item. In reality, there were probably more.

 

You have a right to speak with the ConOff, but if you do not assert that right they will not speak with you. You also have a right to speak with the ConOffs boss, the Chief of the Immigrant Visa Section. Once again, you must firmly assert this right. Look up my post on the "Secret Consulate" for how to do this. I know that you can do this because I did. Wear a suit and tie for these meetings. Power dress.

 

When you speak to them, you must be prepared. Ask the ConOff to tell you all of the reasons that she was denied. Anticipate what these might be, and be prepared to rebut ( with evidence) these reasons.

 

Before you go to GZ thoroughly read the relevant sections of the 9FAm ( Foreign Affairs Manual) that way you can refer to it if they try to stonewall or side track you.

 

The above comments are mainly for you guys who are preparing to go to GZ soon. Do your homework before you go. We prepare the kitchen sink for the same reason.

 

I agree with David Z. and the point he made about being able to communicate in a language. I believe that this is a new requirement that has been unofficially imposed by GZ. Put you SO in an English language program. Tell your SO that this is a requirement, unless you are going to learn Mandarin.

 

Best of Luck

[heyjimi]

Having gone through this experience, I have a few comments. It is common, when issuing a white slip for the ConOff to just refer to one item. In reality, there were probably more.

 

You have a right to speak with the ConOff, but if you do not assert that right they will not speak with you. You also have a right to speak with the ConOffs boss, the Chief of the Immigrant Visa Section. Once again, you must firmly assert this right. Look up my post on the "Secret Consulate" for how to do this. I know that you can do this because I did. Wear a suit and tie for these meetings. Power dress.

 

When you speak to them, you must be prepared. Ask the ConOff to tell you all of the reasons that she was denied. Anticipate what these might be, and be prepared to rebut ( with evidence) these reasons.

 

Before you go to GZ thoroughly read the relevant sections of the 9FAm ( Foreign Affairs Manual) that way you can refer to it if they try to stonewall or side track you.

 

The above comments are mainly for you guys who are preparing to go to GZ soon. Do your homework before you go. We prepare the kitchen sink for the same reason.

 

I agree with David Z. and the point he made about being able to communicate in a language. I believe that this is a new requirement that has been unofficially imposed by GZ. Put you SO in an English language program. Tell your SO that this is a requirement, unless you are going to learn Mandarin.

 

Best of Luck

I have to disagree with the whole langauge thing,because,again the inconsistancy of this whole proceedure,there are woman getting visas all the time,without speaking the english ,so its not true,on the other hand,i agree with you,I have to believe that,there is more to the denial,than this one red flag,or circumstance of the email,and again,at this point we are always speculating on these posts,as we do not know why he was denied....HE doesn't know why his girl was denied,so again the game is all speculation,however i do agree,there has to more red flags,and the "vo" seeing the email,may have went.....ah something not right.

[david_dawei]

we cannot ignore trends away very easily.. a few examples over the last 5 years:

- Language was not as big an issue in the past; now it is;

- Evolution of relationship was hard ever an issue in the far past; then two years ago that kicked in.

- Many, many years ago, a "video" was getting requested to show the two communicating !! Now, you never hear that request.

 

One can't look at communication in isolation... from first contact to interview.. it all plays a role.

 

If we're going to use a 'batter up' analogy... then it's relative the ENTIRE relationship; since that is what the VOs scruntize.

 

What province is she from, is she previously married, does she have children, what's the age difference, how you meet, how long you knew each other, how quickly you engaged, visted, or married, what you filed. evidence as enough or lacking, documentation as correct or lacking, communication as sufficient, number of trips to be together, evidence submitted when asked for, interview related issues...

 

These are ALL swings of the bat; how many does one need? The interview is ONLY ONE SWING of many... but the analogy doesn't completely hold since the previous swings are later evaluated in sum.

 

I offered a theory some years ago where one has to think of the entire process of "building up points"... every step of the way; the more points you have, the less likely they make a small issue a big issue... I called it the "brownie point" idea; you always work to build up brownie points in your case.

 

And it starts with how and who you meet, and where they are from... it's very sad when some of these issues drive the final decision since that is one of few true travesty's I'll level against the consulate..

 

But the fact is: It is an known issue for a very long time; it is our first swing at the bat we decide to take.. we are still ultimately responsible for that choice; the burden is still on the petitioner to account for his 'swings at the bat'.

Edited May 23, 2009 by DavidZixuan (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

since we're talking white denials, i want to raise another issue not mentioned too much..

 

If you were "matched" by some family member or friend... this appears to generally be NOT well received the consulate. Match making is an old tradition, and of course there are exceptions to every rule. But this is one of the few situations which I would dare to tread myself and would be extra careful at every step along the way.

[HKG]

The issue here is, not being told what the reason for denial is, yes it may be this or it may be that, but what that is, is just subjective speculation , if the denial is not based on, FACT! Then the debate begins

about why the Consulate does not give the reason, something about visa fraud., if one goes along with that, I know some people who are trying to sell a bridge in New York. Tell the people who are denied, the reason, bottom line..

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

The issue here is, not being told what the reason for denial is, yes it may be this or it may be that, but what that is, is just subjective speculation , if the denial is not based on, FACT! Then the debate begins

about why the Consulate does not give the reason, something about visa fraud., if one goes along with that, I know some people who are trying to sell a bridge in New York. Tell the people who are denied, the reason, bottom line..

 

That's exactly what the VO is paid to do: "Subjectively Speculate." The best way, and likely the only way anyone can avoid what they or others may deem to be an unfair ruling, is to present their case as completely, as thoroughly, and consistently as they possibly can. Based upon the VOs subjective evaluation, they will make a determination. Whose to know whether it will be fair? They are human, and base their opinions after hopefully completely evaluating a case. We know that some may do this more thoroughly than others; and wonder if some even look at paperwork at all.

 

That means presenting it right the first time. You must speculate, as to what and how the VO and those reviewing your case may speculate. All the bases must be covered. All the "i's," dotted and all the "t's" crossed.

 

Just because another person got away with presenting an incomplete case, doesn't mean the next person will.

 

One of the issues that continues to confuse me are the details surrounding why an email message would be called into question, as to it's authenticity:

 

http://candleforlove.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=494263

 

If you print an email, always make sure you include the Header, so that whoever is reading it, can validate who sent it, what time it was sent, and who it was sent to.

 

However, I'm wondering about the "translation" part the OP stated he included in the copies of the email. Was this done because they are not able to communicate in a common language?

 

If that's the case, it may have been a better idea to leave the content of the emails intact, and not tamper with it. I'm not sure from the reply, whether this was done, but if the Petitioner sends messages in English and the Beneficiary replies in Chinese, I think a better method is not to tamper with these communications. If you want to provide a translation, reference an attachment for each and every email; this means translating each and every email separately, and indicate what method was used for the translation.

Edited May 23, 2009 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[waingro]

It's obviously the language issue, emails are a secondary issue...Take the CR1 route and get her English lessons ASAP!

 

Good luck

[david_dawei]

However, I'm wondering about the "translation" part the OP stated he included in the copies of the email. Was this done because they are not able to communicate in a common language?

 

If that's the case, it may have been a better idea to leave the content of the emails intact, and not tamper with it. I'm not sure from the reply, whether this was done, but if the Petitioner sends messages in English and the Beneficiary replies in Chinese, I think a better method is not to tamper with these communications. If you want to provide a translation, reference an attachment for each and every email; this means translating each and every email separately, and indicate what method was used for the translation.

I agree.

 

Both USCIS and GUZ REQUIRE translations to be notarized and to show the translators statement of ability to translate.

 

The OP stated something like the original is printed but the mechanical translation is behind it... that no longer sounds like an original but something that's been mocked up possibly. Take a picture as a parallel. Don't mock up a picture; leave it as-is.

 

if doucmentation evidence is mocked up, I can certainly see cause for a blue slip at least; It borders on fabricating evidence and maybe that is why they issued a white. It would be most helpful to actually see the item submitted.

[JBHypno]

I just went to ACH last week to get the details on my wife's denial and to ask them to accept further evidence. It was mostly a waste of time. I even got to speak to the unit chief and she wouldn't tell me anything either. No matter how much I insisted I couldn't get any details from the interviewer's notes. All they would tell me is that they suspected fraud that she just married me for immigration purposes. They wouldn't take any additional evidence either claiming that her file was already packaged to be sent back to the US. The only thing I accomplished was getting it put in her computer file that I was there and spoke to the officers. I think GUZ tries to block you as much as they can from overcoming white slips while the file is in China even though they are supposed to accept additional evidence. You need to go to ACH if at all possible to increase your chances of overcoming the denial once your file gets back to the US. I was told by a lawyer that it is much harder to appeal if you don't go.

 

JBHypno