"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...

[GZBILL]

 

As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.

 

Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC... 60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself...

 

http://chinachannel.hk/

and we have US companies like Cisco, Microsoft and Yahoo more than happy to assist them in both infrastructure and monitoring.

 

BTW: In the almost cumulative 8 months I've been in China, I can't recall really having that much of an issue in web restriction... I usually bring my work... and I still have time to go to all the porn, free movies and chatrooms I attend

 

I just Googled Charter 08 and came up with about 80,000 hits. I'm in China and was able to access the ones I clicked on ... even the Wiki article. So much for censorship in China.

 

That said, yes, the government in China does censor stuff ... maybe even a lot of stuff. But who amongst our lobotomy candidates here will say that the US government doesn't hide stuff from their citizens?

 

If anybody here were smart enough to understand even a little about Chinese history, they'd know that one of the reasons development was slow during the thousands of years under various dynasties was because every few years there would be a revolution -- usually started by poor, uneducated farmers for little valid reason.

 

Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution.

[GZBILL]

certainly an interesting read so far... and comments here and there I agree with...

 

Jason has some truth in the 'rose colored' glass syndrome; see too much positive and an inability to see the extent of negative issues that do exist for natives (which they easily see/feel/live). The problem is the flip side; the inability to see the extent of other positive issues that do exist for the natives and makes the picture whole and life just as meaningful/enjoyable.

 

If western democracy can be shown to have problems, then eastern forms of government can be shown to have promise/benefit... But we prefer to harp on what the former has and where the latter lacks alone. that tends to setup an innunedoish superior/inferior comparison.

 

But I agree with GZBill that much of the topic is laughable... and NO, it's not about any disrespect toward natives who wish for some wholesale change to their political system as it impacts their lives; it's about seeing beyond the tip of one's nose. It's looking to the REAL prospect of that kind of wholesale to occur and whether it's based in reality (both historical and social).

 

It may be our human weakness to expect anything to happen quickly. We seem to think that change must happen not just in this decade but at least in our lifetime. I can only ask, why is this so necesssary?

 

I would say this is mostly grafted from our lack of any substantial history to draw on. As Jin has repeated many times in different posts, China has a very long history (possibly the longest civilization ever to exist); this forms their idea of how society changes; and the US is one of the last countries in the world to ever be capable of comprehending it from a longevity (and extremely populous) point of view.

 

That China has changed throughout history, including a few times in the last 100 years. But that change is based on some fundamental historical guides. That any change will occur with emphasis on the people (Social Harmony) and their economy (Financial Stability) will occur in a way the west may not completely understand nor which would work for another country. but how many countries have had to work with a history which has evolved to landmass over 1 billion people?

 

China may end up with some form of democracy which the world has never seen before... and it might not come for another few hundred years. I don't see any problem with that.

 

THE most logical post on the thread. A breath of fresh air.

[Jeikun]

In a country where one race think they are more prestigious than the others, the government doesnt have a right to bash other countries about human rights. I think most of the members know exactly what I am talking about after their SO experience all the hardship of going through all the visa process, applying for jobs.....

 

Yeah, yeah... white power... yawn..

 

You find what you look for.

 

to deny racism to chinese in usa is the same as denying you breath air

 

 

I must breathe water then.

 

Are there racist individuals? Of course there are. Just as there are everywhere. But John's post carried an implication that it was institutionalized and/or epidemic in that it made our country hypocritical to "bash" other countries on human rights (which was off topic and out of left field anyway). That I wholeheartedly deny, and I am sorry if your experience has been a negative one with regards to racism, there is no excusing it. But I hold a firm belief that the majority of Americans will judge you by your actions and personality before they judge you by your race.

 

 

Dont always pick on a country just because it has a different system than yours. It is very immature.

 

 

I don't think I picked on anyone. Besides... lil' ol me can pick on a country of 1.2 billion? Even I'm not that egomaniacal. Just opinions tis all... in this thread it was a Chinese treastie on Democracy anyway... were they picking on themselves?

 

Then leave the Chinese alone. Dont get involved.

 

 

"Leave the Chinese alone"? I'm posting my opinion on a messageboard, not harassing people. Everyone else including you is free to post their opinions that is what this site is for. This isn't Sunshine Mountain, or Happy Chinese Funland board. It's a serious issue, and most of being involved with Chinese family members have some concern about.

 

Talk is talk... nothing more. This board is made for it.

 

So get off of me, already. I'm not here to please you.

[Jeikun]

 

As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.

 

Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC... 60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself...

 

http://chinachannel.hk/

and we have US companies like Cisco, Microsoft and Yahoo more than happy to assist them in both infrastructure and monitoring.

 

BTW: In the almost cumulative 8 months I've been in China, I can't recall really having that much of an issue in web restriction... I usually bring my work... and I still have time to go to all the porn, free movies and chatrooms I attend B)

 

I just Googled Charter 08 and came up with about 80,000 hits. I'm in China and was able to access the ones I clicked on ... even the Wiki article. So much for censorship in China.

 

That said, yes, the government in China does censor stuff ... maybe even a lot of stuff. But who amongst our lobotomy candidates here will say that the US government doesn't hide stuff from their citizens?

 

If anybody here were smart enough to understand even a little about Chinese history, they'd know that one of the reasons development was slow during the thousands of years under various dynasties was because every few years there would be a revolution -- usually started by poor, uneducated farmers for little valid reason.

 

Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution.

 

 

Welcome to Hyperbole land! Where lobotomies are free and everyone who doesn't see the light is a drooling tard!! More enlightenment please!! I feel my frontal lobe regenerating already!!! Yaaay!!!

[LeeFisher3]

Let's end the bickering.

[griz326]

What I find most disturbing here has nothing to do with what is going on in China...

 

It is simply that some members are dismissive of the freedoms and rights they enjoy as Americans... B)

 

Why don't you do something intelligent and reasonable for a change and list these freedoms and rights that we enjoy? Why not make an Us. versus Them list to post here?

 

 

Very interesting challenge....errrrrrrrr...proposal.

[Jeikun]

certainly an interesting read so far... and comments here and there I agree with...

 

Jason has some truth in the 'rose colored' glass syndrome; see too much positive and an inability to see the extent of negative issues that do exist for natives (which they easily see/feel/live). The problem is the flip side; the inability to see the extent of other positive issues that do exist for the natives and makes the picture whole and life just as meaningful/enjoyable.

 

If western democracy can be shown to have problems, then eastern forms of government can be shown to have promise/benefit... But we prefer to harp on what the former has and where the latter lacks alone. that tends to setup an innunedoish superior/inferior comparison.

 

But I agree with GZBill that much of the topic is laughable... and NO, it's not about any disrespect toward natives who wish for some wholesale change to their political system as it impacts their lives; it's about seeing beyond the tip of one's nose. It's looking to the REAL prospect of that kind of wholesale to occur and whether it's based in reality (both historical and social).

 

It may be our human weakness to expect anything to happen quickly. We seem to think that change must happen not just in this decade but at least in our lifetime. I can only ask, why is this so necesssary?

 

I would say this is mostly grafted from our lack of any substantial history to draw on. As Jin has repeated many times in different posts, China has a very long history (possibly the longest civilization ever to exist); this forms their idea of how society changes; and the US is one of the last countries in the world to ever be capable of comprehending it from a longevity (and extremely populous) point of view.

 

That China has changed throughout history, including a few times in the last 100 years. But that change is based on some fundamental historical guides. That any change will occur with emphasis on the people (Social Harmony) and their economy (Financial Stability) will occur in a way the west may not completely understand nor which would work for another country. but how many countries have had to work with a history which has evolved to landmass over 1 billion people?

 

China may end up with some form of democracy which the world has never seen before... and it might not come for another few hundred years. I don't see any problem with that.

 

 

Thanks a million times, David. Your post is actually on topic and thoughtful. I agree with you that China may develop a form of democracy the world hasn't seen before (or something unique). They developed communism into something often quite different from Marx's ideas after all. Also that there's no definative reason to believe it will happen in the next 100 years, or happen all at once.

 

 

Also I like what you said about other factors that balance out the quality of life, often overlooked by outsiders. There are a few "hell" countries on earth, but China is FAR from them. Chinese people in surveys of satisfaction with their lives routinely rate very high. There isn't room in a book to describe the wonderful things about China.

 

 

I did and still do have some doubts about how much the length of national history affects the living generation's perspective, though. The richness of their culture due to that, maybe... but history is history and life is life, and few but the academic and philosopher spend so much time reflecting on it. (Excapt perhaps to whip it out as a weapon kind of how an older adult will say "meh, yer just a kid." to dismiss an argument from a younger one, rather than actually engage the disagreement at face value.)

 

Thanks for taking the time. I prefer your posts where you disagree, or differ from my opinion because you actually make me think about it from a different perspective.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[david_dawei]

I did and still do have some doubts about how much the length of national history affects the living generation's perspective, though. The richness of their culture due to that, maybe... but history is history and life is life, and few but the academic and philosopher spend so much time reflecting on it.

I had to run out on an errand.. and while out I thought that this very issue, the effect of history on a culture's psyche, is often not dealt with in enough detail to really produce a full picture, but to do so here is to stray too much... so maybe another thread would be interesting...

 

but I will say that I think it's a very difficult topic to articulate on some level since since culture's treat history differently; and we already see here how hard it is to possibly apprehend fully another's political system but I'm convinced it is interwined with their social and historical issues.

[GZBILL]

 

As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.

 

Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC... 60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself...

 

http://chinachannel.hk/

and we have US companies like Cisco, Microsoft and Yahoo more than happy to assist them in both infrastructure and monitoring.

 

BTW: In the almost cumulative 8 months I've been in China, I can't recall really having that much of an issue in web restriction... I usually bring my work... and I still have time to go to all the porn, free movies and chatrooms I attend

 

I just Googled Charter 08 and came up with about 80,000 hits. I'm in China and was able to access the ones I clicked on ... even the Wiki article. So much for censorship in China.

 

That said, yes, the government in China does censor stuff ... maybe even a lot of stuff. But who amongst our lobotomy candidates here will say that the US government doesn't hide stuff from their citizens?

 

If anybody here were smart enough to understand even a little about Chinese history, they'd know that one of the reasons development was slow during the thousands of years under various dynasties was because every few years there would be a revolution -- usually started by poor, uneducated farmers for little valid reason.

 

Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution.

 

 

Welcome to Hyperbole land! Where lobotomies are free and everyone who doesn't see the light is a drooling tard!! More enlightenment please!! I feel my frontal lobe regenerating already!!! Yaaay!!!

 

But when you drool, have some Kleenex handy so you can wipe it up.

[Jeikun]

 

As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.

 

Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC... 60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself...

 

http://chinachannel.hk/

and we have US companies like Cisco, Microsoft and Yahoo more than happy to assist them in both infrastructure and monitoring.

 

BTW: In the almost cumulative 8 months I've been in China, I can't recall really having that much of an issue in web restriction... I usually bring my work... and I still have time to go to all the porn, free movies and chatrooms I attend

 

I just Googled Charter 08 and came up with about 80,000 hits. I'm in China and was able to access the ones I clicked on ... even the Wiki article. So much for censorship in China.

 

That said, yes, the government in China does censor stuff ... maybe even a lot of stuff. But who amongst our lobotomy candidates here will say that the US government doesn't hide stuff from their citizens?

 

If anybody here were smart enough to understand even a little about Chinese history, they'd know that one of the reasons development was slow during the thousands of years under various dynasties was because every few years there would be a revolution -- usually started by poor, uneducated farmers for little valid reason.

 

Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution.

 

 

Welcome to Hyperbole land! Where lobotomies are free and everyone who doesn't see the light is a drooling tard!! More enlightenment please!! I feel my frontal lobe regenerating already!!! Yaaay!!!

 

But when you drool, have some Kleenex handy so you can wipe it up.

 

 

That would defeat the purpose. I think I'd look much more the part just letting it hang down like shoestrings until the nurse came in to feed me my mush.

[Li & John]

 

As far as I know, China does block something from other countries.

 

Experience the joy of surfing the web just as it is in the PRC... 60,000 internet watchdogs are watching YOU and working tirelessly to protect you from yourself...

 

http://chinachannel.hk/

 

You are exaggerating too much!.

 

I do know China blocks some bad media, or other junks...Simply because they are using the media as a tool to attack, while chinese government want to boost up the morale of their people.

 

Talking about big brothers, every country has their own share.

[Li & John]

"Leave the Chinese alone"? I'm posting my opinion on a messageboard, not harassing people. Everyone else including you is free to post their opinions that is what this site is for. This isn't Sunshine Mountain, or Happy Chinese Funland board. It's a serious issue, and most of being involved with Chinese family members have some concern about.

 

Talk is talk... nothing more. This board is made for it.

 

So get off of me, already. I'm not here to please you.

 

Calm down, Jeikun, I am here to post my idea too, nothing more, nothing less.

[eseum]

"Part of the reason the government of 1.4+ billion people -- the vast majority of them poor, uneducated farmers -- maintains a tight control (though not as tight as before) is because they want little to incite another revolution. Even a lobotomy wouldn't help anybody here who thinks that China -- or the world even -- would be better off if China suffered a Soviet Union style collapse or fell victim to another revolution."

 

I am not so sure that Chairman Mao, if he were still alive, would wholeheartedly agree with this. Although he seemed to believe more in a guided revolution.

[IllinoisDave]

while chinese government want to boost up the morale of their people.

 

Missed most of this discussion. Probably just as well. But had to hilite this as probably one of the most humorous things I've read in a long time.

[rogerluli]

 

Missed most of this discussion. Probably just as well.

 

I am still finding bodies Dave... It was brutal...