"turn toward a system of liberties, democracy, and rule of law...

[Jeikun]

 

 

Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.

 

 

 

hmmm... maybe all democracies do (or did) not honor several basic human rights, but I'm not so sure that communist states, monarchies, dictatorships, etc ever do. Unless you redifine what qualifies as basic.

[griz326]

This whole thread is a joke, right?

 

What Einstein can even suggest that China should somehow modify their political system to come more in line with that of the US? Talk about laughable.

 

One of the foundations of the American system is that there are so many checks and balances in place to prevent any notion of democracy. How democratic is the Electoral College? The only reason it exists is to allow smaller, less urbanized / industrialized states to have significant influence in the electoral process.

 

If anybody had half a brain they'd consider many more factors than their fantasy Bushistic dreams of conquering the world with democracy.

 

In the 13+ years I have been in China I have seen significant change and progress towards a more representative form of government. There was a time when nobody would dare say anything negative about political leaders. Now it is common.

 

Nobody would dare protest outside of the city or provincial government complex. Now it can be seen every day.

 

At one time government officials wouldn't even dare talk with a citizen to hear, much less address, their complaints. Now it happens on a regular basis.

 

True, China doesn't have one man, one vote. But anybody with more than an elementary understanding of the American political system knows that one man, one vote in America can also be a farce.

 

Right now, given China's economic, social, educational and political level of maturity, anybody who thinks the country would survive -- much less prosper -- if they miraculously accepted America's political system overnight needs a lobotomy.

 

I'm willing to donate to the <insert name here> lobotomy fund.

 

Great post.

[griz326]

 

 

Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.

 

 

 

hmmm... maybe all democracies do (or did) not honor several basic human rights, but I'm not so sure that communist states, monarchies, dictatorships, etc ever do. Unless you redifine what qualifies as basic.

 

Unless you have a closed mind you will recognize the fallacy of your post. China is evolving. It is becoming a little freer with each passing day.

 

My first 30 day trip to China was in 1978. The changes in 30 years are staggering.

[rogerluli]

What I find most disturbing here has nothing to do with what is going on in China...

 

It is simply that some members are dismissive of the freedoms and rights they enjoy as Americans...

[amberjack1234]

You have hit the nail on the head again Roger. Perhaps we should start another pole for those guys that would like to have a communist government in place in America. See how many people here really, if they are honest about it, would like to switch to a BETTER government and way of taking care of our citizens.

 

Oh!! please forgive me I have made the political mistake. You can delete it as you please Roger no hard feelings. I understand the rules but I just had to at least say it.

 

Larry

[Guest jin979]

what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.

 

Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.

[Randy W]

what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.

 

Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.

 

 

1000 years just ain't what it used to be, especially when 950 of them was under some sort of authoritarian rule.

 

Nobody is telling anybody what to "enjoy"

[Guest jin979]

what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.

 

Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.

 

 

1000 years just ain't what it used to be, especially when 950 of them was under some sort of authoritarian rule.

 

Nobody is telling anybody what to "enjoy"

 

 

see post #22

[Randy W]

what i find interesting is that china has 1000's of years of shaping its culture and political identity and beliefs. yet again we see here western expressing a "superiority belief" that it is better to "enjoy" your system, freedoms and beliefs.

 

Roger my family "enjoy" the chinese way, please feel free to enjoy your way, but please stop telling us yours is better.maybe for you it is but then you are not chinese.

 

 

1000 years just ain't what it used to be, especially when 950 of them was under some sort of authoritarian rule.

 

Nobody is telling anybody what to "enjoy"

 

 

see post #22

 

But I'm sorry if it's laughable to suggest that the Chinese people enjoy anything approaching what Americans have in the arena of human rights, freedoms, and guarantee of the rule of law..

The word "enjoy" is used in a different context - the Chinese (and American) people have what rights they have ("enjoy" them, as Roger put it) - whether they receive pleasure from them is a different matter

[Li & John]

to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life.

 

I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT...

 

"The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."

Wikipedia

 

I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights...

 

you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.

warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.

also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ?

 

Yes, quite correct.

 

The US has a long history of abuse and corruption, and has developed very clever means of excusing the behavior. The poor of America are the forgotten people for the richest economy in the world; the rich standing will be surpassed by the rapidly emerging Chinese economy very soon.

 

Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US.

Yes, you are quite right about that. My wife and step daughter feel much safer in China then they do here in America. When I was in China I felt very safe as well.

[Li & John]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".

[Jeikun]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".

 

 

Like yours and hers my evidence is anecdotal, unless one of us has some form of omnipresence. I will submit that most of that sort of information comes from my wife. So that "my wife says _____ and she's a really for real Chinese person, so it's true." argument is as BS as if you or I expected that our experience as Americans summed up total irrefutable knowledge of America. So spare me, I've heard that 1,000 times if I've heard it once.

 

The thread started out about a very interesting paper written by Chinese people. Why mentioning democracy and China in the same paragraph always devolves into an argument about who has the biggest schlong, I will never know.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Jeikun]

 

 

Basic human rights is not an attribute that is exclusive to democracy.

 

 

 

hmmm... maybe all democracies do (or did) not honor several basic human rights, but I'm not so sure that communist states, monarchies, dictatorships, etc ever do. Unless you redifine what qualifies as basic.

 

Unless you have a closed mind you will recognize the fallacy of your post. China is evolving. It is becoming a little freer with each passing day.

 

My first 30 day trip to China was in 1978. The changes in 30 years are staggering.

 

Not exactly. I very much recognize that human rights and freedoms have grown in China by leaps and bounds in the past 30 years. But I also do not see how that conflicts with my statement. Show me an authoritarian or one party government that honors all basic human rights, and I will reconsider my statement. Of course, again, I have to admit it depends on what you define as basic. If you pare what us considered "basic" human rights down to 1 to 3 things, then maybe you have an argument there.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jeikun (see edit history)

[Li & John]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".

 

 

Like yours and hers my evidence is anecdotal, unless one of us has some form of omnipotence. I will forward that most of that sort of information comes from my wife. So that "my wife says _____ and she's a really for real Chinese person, so it's true." argument is as BS as if you or I expected that our experience as Americans summed up total irrefutable knowledge of America. So spare me.

 

The thread started out about an very interesting paper written by Chinese people. Why mentioning democracy and China in the same paragraph always devolves into an argument about who has the biggest cock, I will never know.

My wife says, "if it was posted, then we the Chinese have the freedom of speech" and she will NEVER agree with you on this subject.

[Jeikun]

China seems like a relatively free country as long as:

 

A. You shut up and do as you are told

B. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government

 

Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about.

 

How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them.

 

Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know.

 

Rose was never my color.

My wife wants to know were did you get your info? As far as she can tell, you are wrong about "A and B".

 

 

Like yours and hers my evidence is anecdotal, unless one of us has some form of omnipotence. I will forward that most of that sort of information comes from my wife. So that "my wife says _____ and she's a really for real Chinese person, so it's true." argument is as BS as if you or I expected that our experience as Americans summed up total irrefutable knowledge of America. So spare me.

 

The thread started out about an very interesting paper written by Chinese people. Why mentioning democracy and China in the same paragraph always devolves into an argument about who has the biggest cock, I will never know.

My wife says, "if it was posted, then we the Chinese have the freedom of speech" and she will NEVER agree with you on this subject.

 

 

It was, but was fervently deleted and a search on a major chinese search engine will turn up nothing now. That doesn't sound like freedom of speech to me.

 

But, it's not necessary for your wife or you to agree with me on anything. My opinion is worth nothing, and costs nothing. I disagree on a daily basis with lots of people I like very much. It ain't no thang, brutha'