shushuweiwei Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think the choices do show a slant of assumption that only capitalist democracy offers opportunities and basic rights...because, of course, our politicians would never drive around in more expensive cars than the general population owns. I mean wouldn't it just bowl you over to find that your congressperson is driving around in an Audi A6?! And the choices are they stay pat or become like us. A shift in the other direction, even if it isn't your choice doesn't seem to have crossed your mind as a viable option. I think that this black and white thinking stops us from solving many of the problems in China and America. Capitalist democracy can only be good and anything communist or socialist must be bad, although when asked to list the evils of socialism most people list the evils of totalitarianism that has often accompanied the socialist governments on this planet and say nothing of socialism itself. I believe that the experience of China and America make it clear that some aspects of society offer more opportunity when managed capitalistically, some offer more benefit when managed socialistically and most require some blending of the two concepts. In that regard, China may be ahead of us in realizing that the two philosophies can coexist and be blended. (even if they haven't worked all the bugs out yet) Of course, since FDR we have had some experience of blending but the ideologues always rise up (again, in both countries) to insist on "purity." We learn from a very young age to turn a blind eye to the excesses and failings of our own family/culture while maintaining 20/20 vision for spotting it elsewhere. The current failures of unregulated capitalism will not compute with the capitalist ideologues, as the failures of Chinese communism don't compute with the communist ideologues. We see that people living in a democracy where the basic rights of habeus corpus and freedom from unreasonable searches have been rescinded and where the government imprisons and tortures those it deems to be terrorists without due process, can still assume that "democracy" means these rights are intact, while these same conditions are used to justify why the other system is lacking and even barbaric. And before the ideologues fuss too much, I know, it's OK to rescind those rights if your leaders tell you to be afraid, be very afraid! They must be right! Many of the problems in both countries stem from first deciding that one system is good and the other bad and then applying that system to everything and even if it fails, it must still be good because our ideology tells us so. We love nothing more than simplicity and so we take the complexities of life and decide that one "system" has the answers. We are relieved of the hard work of thinking about what actually works in which arena. The answer is always the same. My ideology, my religion, is best, even where it fails. So in both countries, problems are approached in 3 ways: A) My ideology must be applied! No! My ideology must be applied!C) Could we study the problem and do what actually works? I think partly because we are pack animals who tend to think religiously and magically unless we train our minds to reality, A & B are always much louder voices than C. It is a failing of both countries that we perpetuate the debate between A & B and rarely get to C. In fact, C is actively avoided because it's too much work, while sounding righteous about my ideology is a breeze! There was a time in history when option C became available. We call it "The Enlightenment". Yet every effort is made to get back to choosing A or B. I would love for the people of China to be afforded basic human rights like habeus corpus, freedom from unreasonable searches, and absence of the fear that your own government could whisk you away to a secluded prison and torture you on their whim or a rumor of possible wrong-doing. I would love for the people of America to have those basic rights once again, as well. There really is much less of a dichotomy in reality than there is in our gilded perceptions of what "capitalist democracy" means as opposed to "socialist evil". Yes, we may be unaware of the darker side of China when we just walk around with them but we also choose to remain willfully ignorant of the darker side of America while they walk with us here. So I vote for beginner's mind for both countries and an end to ideocracy/theocracy everywhere. May both countries learn to deal with reality without the thick glasses of their ideologies and, instead, do what's needed for the greater good that benefits each and every one of us. Movement of either one toward the philosophy of the other is failure. May they both, instead, strive to be better than what either can offer now. Link to comment
shushuweiwei Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ha! I guess you can't make a list with a B with a close parentheses after it! Learn something new everyday! Link to comment
Randy W Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ha! I guess you can't make a list with a B with a close parentheses after it! Learn something new everyday! B ) Toss in a blank © => ( C )(C) => ( C ) Link to comment
Guest jin979 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life. I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT... "The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."Wikipedia I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights... you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ? Link to comment
Guest ShaQuaNew Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life. I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT... "The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."Wikipedia I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights... you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ? Yes, quite correct. The US has a long history of abuse and corruption, and has developed very clever means of excusing the behavior. The poor of America are the forgotten people for the richest economy in the world; the rich standing will be surpassed by the rapidly emerging Chinese economy very soon. Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life. I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT... "The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."Wikipedia I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights... you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ? Yes, quite correct. The US has a long history of abuse and corruption, and has developed very clever means of excusing the behavior. The poor of America are the forgotten people for the richest economy in the world; the rich standing will be surpassed by the rapidly emerging Chinese economy very soon. Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US. Personally I feel far safer in our little town of 23,000 souls... than I ever did in Guangzhou... As for Jin's remarks it is quite easy to come up with INSTANCES in which American's rights have been abused...Certainly no system is perfect or even close... Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 to tell you truth china has many things better than usa, usa appears to like controls many more things in life. I agree with you in many ways Jin...The infrastructure in China is superior in airports, railroads, etc....And the US does control a lot of what people do here BUT... "The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to petition, and freedom of the press. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. In federal criminal cases, it requires indictment by grand jury for any capital or "infamous crime", guarantees a speedy public trial with an impartial jury composed of members of the state or judicial district in which the crime occurred, and prohibits double jeopardy. In addition, the Bill of Rights states that "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,"[3] and reserves all powers not granted to the federal government to the citizenry or States."Wikipedia I still prefer having these rights to the right "to get rich"... And in my reading of what goes on in China I can confidently say that Chinese people possess NONE of the rights in our own Bill of Rights... you maybe can tell that to the man (family) in Denver police shoot dead in his home, when police raided wrong house and said they believe can of beer looked looked like gun.warrent was for other house. kill him sitting in chair, us press say oh simple mistake, no police arrested.also i rember seeing army in usa shot students and black people if they gather for protests and usa has jail in cuba without any rights for prisoners, correct ? Yes, quite correct. The US has a long history of abuse and corruption, and has developed very clever means of excusing the behavior. The poor of America are the forgotten people for the richest economy in the world; the rich standing will be surpassed by the rapidly emerging Chinese economy very soon. Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US. Personally I feel far safer in our little town of 23,000 souls... than I ever did in Guangzhou... As for Jin's remarks it is quite easy to come up with INSTANCES in which American's rights have been abused...Certainly no system is perfect or even close... But I'm sorry if it's laughable to suggest that the Chinese people enjoy anything approaching what Americans have in the arena of human rights, freedoms, and guarantee of the rule of law... Link to comment
IllinoisDave Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US.Funny...I've always felt safer with you in China as well. Link to comment
MarkHui Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Personally, I've always felt more safe in China than I ever did in the US.Funny...I've always felt safer with you in China as well. Link to comment
MarkHui Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Would it not be correct to say that America is a constitional republic? Where as in a true democracy 51% of the people could in fact suppress the rights of 49% of the people. Sorry if this is a bit off topic but with all the posts of democracy. Link to comment
Jeikun Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about. How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them. Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know. Rose was never my color. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Would it not be correct to say that America is a constitional republic? Where as in a true democracy 51% of the people could in fact suppress the rights of 49% of the people. Sorry if this is a bit off topic but with all the posts of democracy. Well I can well recall the story my good friend Ben would tell... He was accosted by two women outside of the Constitutional Covention in Philadelphia and asked "What form of government have you given us Mr. Franklin?" His famous reply, "A republic madam...If you can keep it." Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 China seems like a relatively free country as long as: A. You shut up and do as you are toldB. Your interests never come at odds with those of the government Since most ex-pats and visitors are always following A and B, and have the extra courtesy traditionally extended to foreigners, many are deluded into seeing some golden paradise, and wonder what all this fuss about democracy is all about. How often does the average American use his freedoms? How often does the difference become apparent between our 2 systems outside of civics class and the 10 o' clock news? Truth is you don't need your freedoms... until you need them. Suggesting China deserves freedom and democracy doesn't imply hatred for China. They were once Asia's 1st democracy you know. Rose was never my color. I feel limited in that I can only agree with Jason 100%... Link to comment
amberjack1234 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Roger, Roger, Roger, I certainly do admire your tenacity. You don't give up even though I think that you are "beating a dead horse" as I have already told you in several PM's. Jason I do think that you have uncovered the jest of it as to why so many of us here feel so idealistic towards China. I can tell you that for me my feeling about China have nothing to do with the People of China but the government and the way business is conducted. Freedom was recently tested (past year or two) in China by a person or persons merely holding up a sign that said "Free Hugs" nothing political intended or implied just free hugs and this person or persons got quite a few hugs from the thousands of strangers on Wangfujing Av. The police came and ask them to stop the practice and did for a short time and later they began holding the signs up again. Plain clothes police came this time and took them away. They were later released and ask to leave the country. Do you thing that their being released had anything to do with the fact they they were foreigners. What if they had been Chinese? Please don't ask me for the link because I just read it on the english version of Sohu or China View while I was just browsing. So for those of you that think that the Chinese government is so wonderful, friendly and forgiving try just some harmless little experiment as this the next time you go to China and tell us what happened when you get back. I dare say that there is not one among us that is willing to do it. I can tell you that I will not be doing anything that will be attracting attention to myself or my wife while I am there. Any takers????? Larry Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Roger, Roger, Roger, I certainly do admire your tenacity. You don't give up even though I think that you are "beating a dead horse" as I have already told you in several PM's. Jason I do think that you have uncovered the jest of it as to why so many of us here feel so idealistic towards China. I can tell you that for me my feeling about China have nothing to do with the People of China but the government and the way business is conducted. Freedom was recently tested (past year or two) in China by a person or persons merely holding up a sign that said "Free Hugs" nothing political intended or implied just free hugs and this person or persons got quite a few hugs from the thousands of strangers on Wangfujing Av. The police came and ask them to stop the practice and did for a short time and later they began holding the signs up again. Plain clothes police came this time and took them away. They were later released and ask to leave the country. Do you thing that their being released had anything to do with the fact they they were foreigners. What if they had been Chinese? Please don't ask me for the link because I just read it on the english version of Sohu or China View while I was just browsing. So for those of you that think that the Chinese government is so wonderful, friendly and forgiving try just some harmless little experiment as this the next time you go to China and tell us what happened when you get back. I dare say that there is not one among us that is willing to do it. I can tell you that I will not be doing anything that will be attracting attention to myself or my wife while I am there. Any takers????? Larry Great challenge Larry...Let those who think that Chinese people enjoy extensive liberties test out their theory by doing a simple act out-of-the-norm and see where it gets them... Link to comment
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