Guest Rob & Jin Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 the rule of law is a creation of the ruling class to suppress the people, made to support "special interest groups " be that in China, Russia or the USA the excuse and justifications they create over time are complex and get woven into the culture to give them strength, slavery was a good example here, or more contemporary " right to work " laws, who do they support ? Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 China's fourth most senior official has spoken out to try to keep any ideas of "erroneous" Western democracy from creeping into China... "Build a line of defence to resist Western two-party and multi-party systems, bicameral legislature, the separation of powers and other kinds of erroneous ideological interferences," said Jia, who is also head of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC), a largely toothless parliamentary advisory body. http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2009/0...A-DEMOCRACY.php Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) the rule of law is a creation of the ruling class to suppress the people, made to support "special interest groups " be that in China, Russia or the USA the excuse and justifications they create over time are complex and get woven into the culture to give them strength, slavery was a good example here, or more contemporary " right to work " laws, who do they support ? So 'ummmmm Rob... I guess your vote is for... THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE... Have a nice life but get a bigger gun first... Edited January 18, 2009 by rogerluli (see edit history) Link to comment
GZBILL Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 "No big deal, a million yuan will suffice to settle the case..." The Rule of Money vs The Rule of Law http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KA10Ad02.html Not always. Sometimes it's the Rule of Money vs. The Rule of Runaway Legal Absurdity. By any chance Bill do you drive a Bao Ma??? Actually, yes. And stay out of my way or I'll mow your ass down. So would it cost you more to mow my ass down with your bao ma than a Chinese??? Depends on who is at fault, I guess. Maybe a few pennies more. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Comments from our old friend Angry Chinese Blogger... on the recent government crackdown on internet "pornography" and free speech in China...your right to see "naked women penetrating themselves with household objects"... Chinese Internet crackdown reveals cracks in Western Free Speech advocacy machine?Saturday, 10 January 2009 Another day, another crackdown. So is life in China. And a good deal or Irony, to boot. From the AP: "China shuts 41 sites in porn crackdown: state media China has shut down 41 websites as authorities continue a crackdown on online porn that has seen Internet giants like Google and MSN ordered to cut links with such material, state-run media said Friday. Xinhua news agency said the sites were the first casualties in the campaign announced Monday and which has already seen major Chinese and foreign Internet sites apologise and take steps to clean up. "There are still some websites that are not doing enough. Relevant government departments are now thoroughly checking and further raising the strength of the clean-up," Xinhua said. The report gave few details on the sites that were shut. China's Ministry of Public Security and six other government agencies launched the drive against sites that post or link to content that "harms public morality" and corrupts the nation's youth, Xinhua said. The have included Google, MSN and Baidu, the most popular Chinese search engine. Companies that ignore government warnings to remove obscene content or links to such material have been threatened with closure. Google, Baidu and other Internet portals have since issued apologies and moved against online porn. Google said Wednesday it had deleted all links to vulgar material from its search indexes and go all-out to prevent such material re-appearing. "Google is willing to be a law-abiding citizen in China," it said in a statement. China has launched Internet crackdowns on pornography, con artists and political activists in the past, but officials have warned the latest campaign would include tougher measures, without giving specifics. China has the world's largest online population at more that 250 million, according to official figures, and it is growing rapidly as computer use rises along with income levels. However, some of the Internet companies named have said it would be difficult for them to immediately spot and eliminate all obscene content due to the nature of Internet search engines. China's communist rulers generally exercise strict control over the Internet, blocking sites linked to many politically sensitive subjects." ACB cannot help but find it ironic how double edged a sword both a restricted media (ala China) and a free media (ala the West) can be. Chief amongst these ironies is that the very same state apparatus allows the Chinese government to stifle freedom of speech and freedom of expression can also be used to crackdown on undesirable material on the Internet for the wider good of society. Yet, in the US, the same laws that protect the freedom of speech and expression so denied to the Chinese people also serve to render US authorities powerless to tackle all but the most debased material on the web. ACB also cannot help but wonder whether US freedom and democracy advocates will campaign as vigorously to protect the Chinese people's right to see naked woman penetrating themselves with household objects as they do to protect the Chinese people's right to criticize their government. To date the answer would appear to be a resounding no. There has been some protest, but most of it only by those who believe that Beijing's vice crackdown is a cover for further restrictions on free speach (and ACB isn't sying that this isn't the case). When it comes to concerns over the removal of pornography, even that which is legal in the West, Western campaigners appear to be remarkably silent. Even those who are usually most vocal have completely failed to come forward in order to protect China's right to access Internet pornography. Then again, having long had dealing with the West, ACB has come to understand how fickle some people can be when it comes to freedom of speech. The mantra is often "Free speech, so long as it's the right kind of speech". Boobs in an oil painting good, boobs in a centerfold bad. FOX good, Aljazeera bad. And so on. http://angrychineseblogger.blog-city.com/c...ern_free_sp.htm Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 He does make a valid point. Nobody wants to be an advocate for porn... But on the other side of the coin we know that free speech that is limited is not free speech... Except for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" class of things you pretty much have to let everything else go or you have somebody deciding where to draw a line and that is not free speech... Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 He does make a valid point. Nobody wants to be an advocate for porn... But on the other side of the coin we know that free speech that is limited is not free speech... Except for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" class of things you pretty much have to let everything else go or you have somebody deciding where to draw a line and that is not free speech... Freedom of speech is an interesting concept, but it only exists in the imagination. Not only is shouting fire a no-no, there are libel and perjury laws. Even here is the good old USA, freedom of speech is limited. Allright then let's just say that it is much, much more limited in China than the US... Link to comment
griz326 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Freedom of Speech is one of the most misunderstood constitutional rights in the USA. It is much more limited than most people imagine with libel, slander, truth in advertising and myriad other little twists & turns, plus the censorship of political correctness. While you have the right to say "this that and the other thing," you don't have the right to say it on the radio unless you own the radio station. While you have the right to print 10k newspapers, you do not have the right to distribute them. While you think you have the right to write about or publicly denounce some political figure, you only have that right so long as you understand that exercising that right may have severe consequences. Go ahead, call the president of your company, the chairman of the board or some other prominent figure at your place of work an incompetent loser or unethical SOB...see how long you keep your job even if your charge is true. Their is no freedom of speech on this board, it is censored by the moderators - some of whom take the Nixonian view of the board's rule of law. Free speech carries responsibility, it is not really free. In fact, there is free speech every where on the planet it is just that the consequences may vary. ...and don't think for one second that people have not been imprisoned or killed for what they said or wrote in the USA. In my days as a journalist I received many credible threats from government through the police and hundreds of threats from listeners/readers; that's why I started to carry a gun. People are only as free as they dare to be. Edited January 19, 2009 by griz326 (see edit history) Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Let me put it this way...Here in the land of the free and the home of the brave...I can carry a sign around my town saying THE PRESIDENT IS A FOOL...Try that in China... Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Here's an interesting look at freedom all over the world... And sorry Don but China actually rates slightly worse than Iran... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_(report) Link to comment
amberjack1234 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Griz, you know that I am a short kind of small man so sometimes I do feel unsafe in some parts of China at night time on some alleys on the way back to my wife's apartment. Do you think that I could get a pocket pistol to make me feel better and more safe for my wife and I. Where could I get one any Idea. While I was there I never saw even one such business. I understand that it is even against the law to take pepper spray into the country. Oh, I am very serious about this. My wife can not find one single web site in Chinese that carries the story or anything what so ever about Charter 08. There are plenty in english but none in Chinese. Could someone point her to one please I would greatly appreciate it and so would she. I am not pulling anybody chain herebeing sarcastic either I really want to see one and so does she. She and I can not find anything what so ever about it and now is beginning to think that it is a Waster conspiracy to make China look bad because she can find plenty of that. Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Griz, you know that I am a short kind of small man so sometimes I do feel unsafe in some parts of China at night time on some alleys on the way back to my wife's apartment. Do you think that I could get a pocket pistol to make me feel better and more safe for my wife and I. Where could I get one any Idea. While I was there I never saw even one such business. I understand that it is even against the law to take pepper spray into the country. Oh, I am very serious about this. My wife can not find one single web site in Chinese that carries the story or anything what so ever about Charter 08. There are plenty in english but none in Chinese. Could someone point her to one please I would greatly appreciate it and so would she. I am not pulling anybody chain herebeing sarcastic either I really want to see one and so does she. She and I can not find anything what so ever about it and now is beginning to think that it is a Waster conspiracy to make China look bad because she can find plenty of that. Larry the average Chinese person cannot see anything that the government doesn't want them to see which includes Charter 08, Tiannamen Square, June 4, and on and on...Those claiming they have access to everything online in China that we do in the US are using proxy servers or...blowing smoke... As for the handgun thingie I'll let Steve handle that request... Link to comment
rogerluli Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Griz, you know that I am a short kind of small man so sometimes I do feel unsafe in some parts of China at night time on some alleys on the way back to my wife's apartment. Do you think that I could get a pocket pistol to make me feel better and more safe for my wife and I. Where could I get one any Idea. While I was there I never saw even one such business. I understand that it is even against the law to take pepper spray into the country. Oh, I am very serious about this. My wife can not find one single web site in Chinese that carries the story or anything what so ever about Charter 08. There are plenty in english but none in Chinese. Could someone point her to one please I would greatly appreciate it and so would she. I am not pulling anybody chain herebeing sarcastic either I really want to see one and so does she. She and I can not find anything what so ever about it and now is beginning to think that it is a Waster conspiracy to make China look bad because she can find plenty of that. Larry the average Chinese person cannot see anything that the government doesn't want them to see which includes Charter 08, Tiannamen Square, June 4, and on and on...Those claiming they have access to everything online in China that we do in the US are using proxy servers or...blowing smoke... As for the handgun thingie I'll let Steve handle that request... Ummmm on SECOND thought we will NOT be debating the SECOND amendment here... so if you have comments keep them to the point please. It's been done before in other forums and never to a good end... Link to comment
IllinoisDave Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Ummmm on SECOND thought we will NOT be debating the SECOND amendment here... It's been done before in other forums and never to a good end... Amen to that brother Roger. Link to comment
griz326 Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I actually saw an old handgun in the Nanning market my wife and I visit to buy tea (While I did not handle it, I would have been amazed if it functioned). I would never attempt to buy a handgun in China, but guns are available, just like illegal drugs. Quite a while ago there was a TV documentary about an entire Chinese town dedicated to making firearms and distributing them illegally. Unfortunately I do not recall if it was PBS or Discovery...hell, it might even have been on CCTV...I just don't recall. I have never had any of my Internet connections blocked from a hotel room used by Chinese businessmen in Nanning or from hotels in Guangzhou, Chengdu, Kaili or Beijing. I actually ran a 50 website test on a dare from one of my co-workers in 2007. The one connection that was blocked by the firewall was Whitehouse.com which is a porn site, but I was able to get information on Tiannamen Square, Chinese torture methods and a number of other items picked by my buddy without using a proxy. But the Great Firewall of China is active and blocking some connections, it is just not nearly as powerful as people commonly believe. Just like my company's firewall products, the list of high risk sites changes hour by hour and then the updated list has to be deployed. The Great Firewall of China does and will always have holes. One of my co-workers (Chinese national) in Beijing told me, "One day you can freely use the Wiki, the next day you cannot..." The foreign nationals I know working in China tell me the Great Firewall really does block things, but it rarely disrupts their use of the Internet. They attribute their commonly free access to the Internet to melba toast interests. The perfect demonstration of the Great Firewall's ineffectiveness is the fact that proxies and tunnels work and that encrypted SMTP messages can pass...or at least they could in 2007. For those determined to frequent forbidden Internet sites from China the game is the same as for criminals selling credit cards and other hacking services on IRC servers with underground economy channels. Link to comment
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