Cleaning up Beijing.....

[Corbin]

 

(SNIP)

You're right. There is no easy way and requires serious sacrifice, both from the government and its people. Not everyone is agreeable with being inconvenienced with the stern measures being instituted in Beijing. I recall back in the 1960s when the US made required all refineries to stop producing leaded gas and for all car manufacturers to include a catalytic converter. These steps were huge at the time and increased the cost of gas and cars. Everyone complained at that time also, but the measures were still taken and have had excellent results.

(SNIP)

 

I may be wrong about this but I do believe Leaded Gas was produced until the early 70's and the lead in the gas was more for a lubricant than anything else. Yes it produced some bad things as it was burned. Then also if I remember right, catalytic converter are there to burn off more of the unburnt hydro carbons to help reduce pollution. Yes both of these things have helped and it has cost us money to do it. This is only a small part of the puzzle. Shutting down plants and restricting driving is not the way to do it, this only hurt the economy and upsets the growth of their country.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

ShaQuaNew -

 

Wow.

 

Really? You felt GZBill's posits were all opinion? I'm sorry, I totally disagree with you.

 

Sure - the 'interview 20,000 residents in Beijing' sampling hasn't occurred yet, but you really feel GZBill's slice of reality is totally off-base?

 

First, let me state as to what I mean when I say opinion:

 

Whether or not someone believes that the steps currently being taken in China regarding cleaning up will improve the quality of air, water, and so on is an opinion. Opinions are open to conjecture. Facts can be disputed too, but the chance of error is reduced as more data is collected.

 

What are facts: Facts regarding pollution and the cooperation of the affected people can be measured. These measurements take the form of data that is collected from a variety of sources. Some collection methods are better than others, but data can be sorted and analyzed to determine trends. Statistics can take the form of charts, graphs and scientific analysis. Facts are measureable.

 

 

I re-read his response to you three times this evening, nodding my head, 'yup, that's as it is in BeiJing' , based on my life in BeiJing. But Hey - it's BeiJing - totally insular from every other place in China. I thought GZBill's posit was dead on. 100 percent , to the hilt, accurate.

 

We can agree to disagree here. Time will bear out in post Olympic China whether the country and or Beijing will institute lasting changes that have measurable effect as analyzed by six sigma statistics. Change will be difficult in China. Change happens slowly, but it is also measurable.

[Sebastian]

Lasting Changes ?? F*CK NO, my friend. A Week after the last athelete leaves, it's back to business as usual.

 

Whilst I'm a fan of statistical sampling - I say re-read my last reply - that sampling job hasn't been done on the RESIDENTS of BeiJing. IMO, it won't be done, either, by ANY Chinese entity. It MIGHT be done by some ngo with a base outside o China, but will any China-entity institute such a statistical sampling?? F*CK NO !!! It'll damage 'face' more than you can measure.

 

Perhaps we'll agree to disagree, but my take on it is personal and experiential. I think I'd mostly ignore your position on it, at least for now, as its totally (again, IMO/E) inconsequential.

[Guest WenDylan]

Lasting Changes ?? F*CK NO, my friend. A Week after the last athelete leaves, it's back to business as usual.

 

Whilst I'm a fan of statistical sampling - I say re-read my last reply - that sampling job hasn't been done on the RESIDENTS of BeiJing. IMO, it won't be done, either, by ANY Chinese entity. It MIGHT be done by some ngo with a base outside o China, but will any China-entity institute such a statistical sampling?? F*CK NO !!! It'll damage 'face' more than you can measure.

 

Perhaps we'll agree to disagree, but my take on it is personal and experiential. I think I'd mostly ignore your position on it, at least for now, as its totally (again, IMO/E) inconsequential.

Those workers have to go back to work sometime, and those factories can't stay closed forever.

[Guest ShaQuaNew]

 

I may be wrong about this but I do believe Leaded Gas was produced until the early 70's and the lead in the gas was more for a lubricant than anything else. Yes it produced some bad things as it was burned. Then also if I remember right, catalytic converter are there to burn off more of the unburnt hydro carbons to help reduce pollution. Yes both of these things have helped and it has cost us money to do it. This is only a small part of the puzzle. Shutting down plants and restricting driving is not the way to do it, this only hurt the economy and upsets the growth of their country.

 

Corbin,

 

I'm not sure when the change was made. Sometime is the 60s or 70s. It may have been the 70s. And, you're right about the reasoning for adding lead to gas as a lubricant. It also aided as an anti-knock agent for the older cars. One of the by-products of putting lead into the air is acid-rain. Lead doesn't help plant-life much either.

 

As for the shutting down of plants and other drastic measures, I for one am NOT in favor of that as a long term solution. The measures now being taken in Beijing will be temporary and meant only as a quick clean up for the world community. The other measures that China is taking are having lasting effect, like those being instituted by companies like Panasonic, who is now recycling 85% of it's wastewater for reuse for plants and drinking water.

Edited July 30, 2008 by ShaQuaNew (see edit history)

[rogerluli]

ShaQuaNew -

 

Wow.

 

Really? You felt GZBill's posits were all opinion? I'm sorry, I totally disagree with you.

 

Sure - the 'interview 20,000 residents in Beijing' sampling hasn't occurred yet, but you really feel GZBill's slice of reality is totally off-base?

 

I re-read his response to you three times this evening, nodding my head, 'yup, that's as it is in BeiJing' , based on my life in BeiJing. But Hey - it's BeiJing - totally insular from every other place in China. I thought GZBill's posit was dead on. 100 percent , to the hilt, accurate.

 

NO ONE here has nearly the experience of living as an expat in China that GZBill does...I would defer to his knowledge on all of these matters...

[rogerluli]

http://thetyee.ca/News/2008/07/30/OlympicCleanUp/

 

It isn't just the air that's getting cleaned up for the Olympics. Here's an expat's sad story of how he can no longer get pirated DVDs for next to nothing... Will this cleanup outlast August 18 or will business be back to normal soon??? Hollywood estimates that 90 % of the 2.5 to 3 BILLION DVDs sold in China are pirated copies...

[rogerluli]

NO EXCESSIVE PARTYING ALLOWED...

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...l?nav=rss_world

 

Authorities are cracking down on the bar and club scene in Beijing ahead of the Olympics as well...

 

What are all the visitors going to do for fun???

[GZBILL]

ShaQuaNew -

 

Wow.

 

Really? You felt GZBill's posits were all opinion? I'm sorry, I totally disagree with you.

 

Sure - the 'interview 20,000 residents in Beijing' sampling hasn't occurred yet, but you really feel GZBill's slice of reality is totally off-base?

 

I re-read his response to you three times this evening, nodding my head, 'yup, that's as it is in BeiJing' , based on my life in BeiJing. But Hey - it's BeiJing - totally insular from every other place in China. I thought GZBill's posit was dead on. 100 percent , to the hilt, accurate.

 

NO ONE here has nearly the experience of living as an expat in China that GZBill does...I would defer to his knowledge on all of these matters...

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Roger.

 

I do believe that, over a very prolonged period of time, China will address the environmental issues they are facing.

 

However, the improvements in Beijing for the Olympics are not due to anything other than massive restrictions, modifications, imposition of hardships and, in a nutshell, shifting the crap from point A to point B.

 

I can only think of one word -- delusional -- to describe any theory that odd-even vehicle use, plant closings and other such policies will continue past the end of September. It's not a matter of opinion, but fact; it's a matter of history repeating itself. Back when they had a G8 meeting in China they wanted to make beijing look like a "green" city to visiting dignitaries. So they painted the freaking grass green. All the way from the Beijing Capital Airport to just inside the First Ring Road to Tiananmen Square. Painted. With paint.

 

Beijing, for the Olympics, has taken 9 steps forward and on September 30th will take 11 steps back. Count on it. But feel free to make moronic statements that it won't happen. I'm sure there are still some people who think the world is flat, too.

[GZBILL]

NO EXCESSIVE PARTYING ALLOWED...

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...l?nav=rss_world

 

Authorities are cracking down on the bar and club scene in Beijing ahead of the Olympics as well...

 

What are all the visitors going to do for fun???

 

San Li Tun is already pretty much a ghost town. They'll force tourists to party in expensive hotel clubs of KTV lounges run by the Army.

[rogerluli]

[i do believe that, over a very prolonged period of time, China will address the environmental issues they are facing.

 

 

And I think everyone here agrees completely with that...

 

Let's just hope it's a "prolonged period of time" rather than a "very prolonged period of time"...

 

But I couldn't wait for it at my age. I decided we could not wait for the clean air campaign to work in a major city so we went to smaller ones that had good air quality NOW...

[H.Woodside]

IMO, China will eventually clean up the environment the same way we did in the U.S. by implementing emission restrictions on factories and such......It will be a long slow road (maybe slower), just as it was here, but it will happen eventualy....maybe not in our lifetime.

 

At least the Olympics has started the ball rolling.

[Guest WenDylan]

http://www.enn.com/pollution/article/37808

 

Most Chinese air pollution standards are outside World Health Organization guidelines. Moreover, experts say that the pollution index China uses to tell ordinary citizens whether the air is safe -- a "blue sky" day -- is seriously flawed.

 

 

This was a link on one of my finance web sites. There are a few more links on the topic within the link posted above.

 

As far as China's air pollution getting better, don't forget that China and India have 850 more coal-fired power plants being built in the next few years. That certainly doesn't bode well for many 'blue sky' days ahead.

 

China is now going through the industrial growth cycle that the US went through between 1900 ~ 1980. That requires a lot of cheap energy and cheap energy isn't clean or green. To think the they will forgo growth for the environment is wishful thinking. Yes, they will take some steps, but growth will win out. One the populace gets a taste of the 'better life' known in the industrialized western countries, the trend is quite clear.

They need to invest in more of those garbage fueled power plants. I hear they do very well, and are much more green... if that could be possible.

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Feb/56309.htm

 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/nod...284228890.shtml

 

Maybe it just isn't economical enough...

[Corbin]

http://www.enn.com/pollution/article/37808

 

Most Chinese air pollution standards are outside World Health Organization guidelines. Moreover, experts say that the pollution index China uses to tell ordinary citizens whether the air is safe -- a "blue sky" day -- is seriously flawed.

 

 

This was a link on one of my finance web sites. There are a few more links on the topic within the link posted above.

 

As far as China's air pollution getting better, don't forget that China and India have 850 more coal-fired power plants being built in the next few years. That certainly doesn't bode well for many 'blue sky' days ahead.

 

China is now going through the industrial growth cycle that the US went through between 1900 ~ 1980. That requires a lot of cheap energy and cheap energy isn't clean or green. To think the they will forgo growth for the environment is wishful thinking. Yes, they will take some steps, but growth will win out. One the populace gets a taste of the 'better life' known in the industrialized western countries, the trend is quite clear.

They need to invest in more of those garbage fueled power plants. I hear they do very well, and are much more green... if that could be possible.

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Feb/56309.htm

 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/nod...284228890.shtml

 

Maybe it just isn't economical enough...

Hell the US needs to build a few of these to help with our own waste problems that we generate on a daily basis. I remember several years back hearing about this type of technology and wondered then why we didn't build these types of plants.

[Guest WenDylan]

http://www.enn.com/pollution/article/37808

 

Most Chinese air pollution standards are outside World Health Organization guidelines. Moreover, experts say that the pollution index China uses to tell ordinary citizens whether the air is safe -- a "blue sky" day -- is seriously flawed.

 

 

This was a link on one of my finance web sites. There are a few more links on the topic within the link posted above.

 

As far as China's air pollution getting better, don't forget that China and India have 850 more coal-fired power plants being built in the next few years. That certainly doesn't bode well for many 'blue sky' days ahead.

 

China is now going through the industrial growth cycle that the US went through between 1900 ~ 1980. That requires a lot of cheap energy and cheap energy isn't clean or green. To think the they will forgo growth for the environment is wishful thinking. Yes, they will take some steps, but growth will win out. One the populace gets a taste of the 'better life' known in the industrialized western countries, the trend is quite clear.

They need to invest in more of those garbage fueled power plants. I hear they do very well, and are much more green... if that could be possible.

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Feb/56309.htm

 

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_10/nod...284228890.shtml

 

Maybe it just isn't economical enough...

Hell the US needs to build a few of these to help with our own waste problems that we generate on a daily basis. I remember several years back hearing about this type of technology and wondered then why we didn't build these types of plants.

Yeah, they have some as well, but Green Peace isn't very happy that we build them.